Was the Tang Dynasty a Turkic one, and if so what if they were thought of it that way?

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Is this actually real


The earlier post:


If it is an actual descriptor, what if the Tang were thought of as a foreign barbarian dynasty in the same way the later Yuan and Qing were? Funny how the Tang was one of imperial China's cosmopolitan and territorial heights of glory.
My understanding is that the idea of "foreign barbarian" at the onset of Tang rule was considerably more elastic than it would turn out to be thought of in later times, and especially under the Ming, who emphasised their Han-ness and whose legitimacy rested on being "not Yuan". This in turn colored perceptions of the Qing, I think.
 
Is this actually real


The earlier post:


If it is an actual descriptor, what if the Tang were thought of as a foreign barbarian dynasty in the same way the later Yuan and Qing were? Funny how the Tang was one of imperial China's cosmopolitan and territorial heights of glory.
No. In terms of bloodline, the early Tang emperors were more Mongolian(the Xianbei were basically a branch of proto-Mongols) than Han because of two matrilineal marriages. I have heard people argue that the patrilineal ancestor of the Tang emperors, Li Hu, might have been a Xianbei pretending to be Han but never heard of the idea that it was Turkic.
 
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Wait a minute, did she just mistaken the entire Tang Dynasty (which definitely has a Han Patrilineal Roots) to the frickin AN LUSHAN? (who is definitely a Turkic mercenary)?

Looked through the records, Emperor Taizong's mother is actually coming from the Han Noble Family, not a Concubines pf Steppe Origin.

Nope. Not right.
 
No. In terms of bloodline, the early Tang emperors were more Mongolian(the Xianbei were basically a branch of proto-Mongols) than Han because of two matrilineal marriages. I have heard people argue that the patrilineal ancestor of the Tang emperors, Li Hu, might have been a Xianbei pretending to be Han but never heard of the idea that it was Turkic.

Are Mongols and Turks connected. I mean all of these steppe nomad conquerors bumped into each other at some point.

Wait a minute, did she just mistaken the entire Tang Dynasty (which definitely has a Han Patrilineal Roots) to the frickin AN LUSHAN? (who is definitely a Turkic mercenary)?

Looked through the records, Emperor Taizong's mother is actually coming from the Han Noble Family, not a Concubines pf Steppe Origin.

Nope. Not right.
Then why did the imperial heir idolize Turks so much?


Tang relationship with the Turks may have further deepened had the crown prince Li Chengqian, a Turkophile, been enthroned as Taizong's successor. Li Chengqian enthusiastically embraced Turkic customs, and Chinese historian Sima Guang recorded that he: "He [Chengqian] lved to emulate Turkish speech and their manner of dress. He chose from among his retinue those who had Turkish features and grouped them in bands of five; he made them plait their hair, wear sheepskins, and herd sheep. He had made five wolf's head banners and tents and set up yurts. The crown prince took up residence here; he gathered sheep and cooked them, and then, drawing out his waist-knife, he would carve the meat and let everyone eat." Chengqian was deposed as crown prince by Taizong after his plans to usurp the throne were revealed. He was exiled by Taizong and died as a commoner....
 
Wait a minute, did she just mistaken the entire Tang Dynasty (which definitely has a Han Patrilineal Roots) to the frickin AN LUSHAN? (who is definitely a Turkic mercenary)?

Looked through the records, Emperor Taizong's mother is actually coming from the Han Noble Family, not a Concubines pf Steppe Origin.

Nope. Not right.
At least Half Xianbei actually. Li Shimin’s maternal grandmother was actually the daughter of Northern Zhou’s founding emperor.Not that it mattered because most Xianbei aristocrats themselves were well assimilated and had a long history of intermarriage with Hans.
 
The tweets might not be accurate, the narrative that the Tang ruling family revised out any Turkic origins in order to fit in does seem convoluted, but the tweets themselves did not invent the idea that they were Turkic-descended, either actually by blood or simply being very much culturally influenced by them.




It would be pretty hilarious if one of the greatest Chinese emperors was of Turkic descent, just like Alexander Nevsky served the Mongols faithfully, Catherine the Great was a Prussian, and the first emperor of Northern Vietnam was Chinese. Cleopatra was Greek. And so on.
 
The tweets might not be accurate, the narrative that the Tang ruling family revised out any Turkic origins in order to fit in does seem convoluted, but the tweets themselves did not invent the idea that they were Turkic-descended, either actually by blood or simply being very much culturally influenced by them.




It would be pretty hilarious if one of the greatest Chinese emperors was of Turkic descent, just like Alexander Nevsky served the Mongols faithfully, Catherine the Great was a Prussian, and the first emperor of Northern Vietnam was Chinese. Cleopatra was Greek. And so on.
I think Catherine was Ascanian, from one of the Anhalt states... so she was sort of Prussian-adjacent :)
 
FYI claims such as "Whatever-historical-figure was insert-ethnicity-here" has less historical value and more a modern assertation. 1,500 years ago what was "Chinese" and what was "Turkic" were very different from what it is today.
 
Fully or near-fully assimilated Han is probably the best description for the Tang Dynasty. I don't recall there was ever any indication of the Li family holding on to any Xianbei customs that were publicized. Compare and contrast the Yuan and Qing, who, while considerably Sinicized themselves, do hold on to their roots more strongly, and even imposed their ways on the conquered population (e.g. the signature Manchu queues on the Han population). It felt as if the Tang emperors merely adopted the title of Khagan because they had the convenience of lineage and force of arms to do so.
 

Crazy Boris

Banned
from what I can gather, Gaozu's heritage was Han by his father, Li Bing, and a mix of Han and Xianbei by his mother, Lady Dugu

As far as I can tell, going down the line of Tang emperors, the only empress with known non-Han ancestry I can find (provided anything about their background is known) is Wende, mother of Gaozong, who was descended from the Touba clan. A lot of the mothers of Tang emperors were apparently from southern provinces (Zhejiang, Fujian, Jiangsu, Sichuan), which makes Turkic ancestry even less likely.

So as far as I can tell, the Tang did have some Xianbei ancestry, but not much, and were otherwise Han, the House of Li seems to have had Han roots, as cited by a couple sources on wiki, with Dugu being the first known family member with any non-Han origins (I have no idea where this person is getting the "consensus view among historians" claim)

On top of that, whether the Xianbei were Turkic to begin with is debatable, from what I'm seeing it looks like Mongol origins are likely.

So saying the Tang were a Turkic dynasty doesn't really hold water, it would be like if I said the Stuarts are a Scandinavian dynasty because James IV's mother was Danish.
 
At least Half Xianbei actually. Li Shimin’s maternal grandmother was actually the daughter of Northern Zhou’s founding emperor.Not that it mattered because most Xianbei aristocrats themselves were well assimilated and had a long history of intermarriage with Hans.
Well, Emperor Gaozhu's mother is indeed either one of the Dugu Sisters, wbich is indeed a Xianbei Turk.

The Tweets said Emperor Taizong explicitly thought, and his mother is definitely Han Chinese Noblewoman.

Discounting the fact that BOTH Chinese and ironically, Turkic Tribes themselves, Traced lineage solely through Patrilineal descendants, by both Chinese and Turkic standards, the Tang Emperors were Definitely Han Chinese. And by modern definition, The Emperor Taizong would be at best quarter Turks

Admiration of Turkic Nomads for their military effectiveness is indeed the Hallmark of the Tang, Turkic Noblewomen were recorded as parts pf the Imperial Harem, and many of the higher-ranking officers were often Turkic Origin. But the particular Emperor Taizong was born of Chinese Noblewoman, Unlike his father Emperpr Gaozhu, who using modern definition, could be said to be Half-Turkic.
 

kholieken

Banned
There always rumour that House of Li is Xianbei who given surname Li, not actually Li family that is Han ethnicity.

Also guanzhong military nobles (including Sui and Tang) had different traditions (and intermarry with nomads) that many Tang traditions would be unusual to average Han chinese.
 
There always rumour that House of Li is Xianbei who given surname Li, not actually Li family that is Han ethnicity.
Well...


A branch of the Tanguts originally bore the surname Tuoba, but their chieftains were subsequently bestowed the Chinese surnames Li () and Zhao () by the Tang dynasty and the Song dynasty respectively. The Tangut Tuoba clan later adopted the surname Weiming (嵬名) and eventually established the Western Xia dynasty in northwestern China.

Alexander Vovin (2007) identifies the Tuoba language as a Mongolic language. On the other hand, Juha Janhunen proposed that the Tuoba might have spoken an Oghur Turkic language René Grousset, writing in the early 20th century, identifies the Tuoba as a Turkic tribe. According to Peter Boodberg, a 20th-century scholar, the Tuoba language was essentially Turkic with Mongolic admixture. Chen Sanping observed that the Tuoba language contains both elements. Liu Xueyao stated that the Tuoba may have had their own language which should not be assumed to be identical with any other known languages.

So I suppose if one was to agree with the hypothesis that the Tuoba language is proto-Turkic and thus the people who spoke it a Turkic tribe, and and suppose if the House of Li was in fact both Xianbei-descended and Tuoba Xianbei at that, then perhaps there is a case to be made. Maybe the tweets in the OP were just conflating proto-Mongolian with proto-Turkic? And maybe there is a case, albeit one accidentally true because there's a Xianbei tribe that happens to be linguistically Turkic?

Also, those above excerpts are just from Wikipedia, but they are employed in the ensuing discussing that the link goes into about the etymology for the word Tabghach.

There were a number of on-line articles explaining the quotes and allusions in this speech of Xi's, and one of the things they explained was "taohuashi". This Chinese wiki about it states in its first line that the name "taohuashi" is Old Turkic and mentions three theories about the origins of the word Tabghach, which as you know came to be used in a generic sense for "China" in such places as the Orkhon [Old Turkic] inscriptions and even a Byzantine text. I still haven't figured out how to use the medieval and ancient Chinese pronunciation dictionaries — are there online versions now? I really should, but in the meanwhile, what do you think of the etymologies linking Tabghach to "Táng jiā 唐家" or “Dà Hàn 大汉”? I am suspicious of both, since they seem so sino-centric and apparently phonetically distant from Tabghach. I don't know the Tang or pre-Tang pronunciation of tuòbá 拓跋; but seemingly you'd need a metathesis to get the labial b before the alveolar (or further back) g / k/ kh. I don't know how probable that is.

Notes by VHM:

Trying to link "Táng jiā 唐家" or “Dà Hàn 大汉” to Tabgach makes no sense. Phonologically they are remote from Tabgach, even in Middle Sinitic reconstruction. Semantically they both strain credulity, since the former means "Tang family" and the latter means "Great Han", whereas "Tabgach" is surely the transcription of a non-Sinitic ethnonym.
 
Weird how this is all coming up at the same time that the Chinese Government is ramping up its Han Ultra Nationalism...

Personally, I don't really care as I don't have a dog in this fight, but it is curious...
 
Weird how this is all coming up at the same time that the Chinese Government is ramping up its Han Ultra Nationalism...

Personally, I don't really care as I don't have a dog in this fight, but it is curious...
Not wanting to discuss present day politics but the Han Nationalism endorsed by present day PRC is inapplicable to any Chinese dynasties before the Qing, as it was based on racism against the then Manchu ruling class, and ironically enough, adaptation of Imperial JAAPN policies about race.

Past Chinese definition of Han Chinese is having been fathered by Han Chinese. That's all ... Same with most Patriarchal Asiatic Cultures that traced lineage through Male lineage. A son of a Han Chinese and a foreign concubine, or even foreign slave is by definition Han Chinese. That's why the Jin and Yuan dynasty differs, as they tracked their Patrilineal descent to Jurchen and Mongol lineage, respectively.

Present day Practice of deeming Son of Han Chinese and Foreign Woman as Half-Han, is rooted in the teachings of Sun Yat Sen.
 
No. No Chinese record makes this claim, especially since the founder was half-Turkic on his mother's side and the Chinese count inheritance and ethnicity by the paternal line. As far as their political ethnicity, they were not foreign like the Liao/Jin/Yuan/Qing were, they did not rely on foreign ethnic groups for their power base, and their politics were more similar to the typical Han ethnosupremacist outlook of native dynasties, than they were to that of the Yuan or Qing. There was an old Xianbei nobility in the north from the North-South period, and the Tang founder did have a fairly strong connection to it, but this nobility was not ethnically exclusive: Han could and did become part of it, and by this point the class as a whole was thoroughly assimilated into Han culture.

The idea that the Tang were Turkic is entirely sucked out of modern people's thumbs because the Turks called Tang Taizong heavenly khan, which is just a calque for heavenly emperor. Tell me if that doesn't sound something like Son of Heaven to you.
 
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And then there's the broader issue of "cosmopolitan Tang."


People say the Tang were exceptionally cosmopolitan and friendly to barbarians, and this is (a.) true to some extent at certain times, and (b.) pretty overblown, especially when put in context of other empires who did the same stuff, but which we don't describe as such. For example, the Tang employed barbarians as foederati. They put them on the borders, gave them military posts, tried to Sinicize them, and occasionally saw them rebel... just like Rome did, and we don't talk about how barbarophilic Rome was, do we?

They also tolerated foreign religions... up until they didn't, at which point they repressed them so brutally that all of them except Buddhism disappeared from China. They had large foreign populations at the capital... which faced mounting discrimination over time and were often forced to distinguish themselves in dress from Han people explicitly in order to avoid intermixing. I recall a medieval practice involving Jews and yellow stars.

They liked exotic foreign styles... and the French had chinoiserie, and the Qing did the same for western stuff: observe this painting of the Yongzheng emperor cosplaying as a European. Japan in the Sakoku era had a whole field of called Rangaku or "Dutch studies"... and yet I distinctly recall something about them being militant isolationists. By this logic, 17th and 18th century Japan's love for European gadgets is a sign of their profound cosmopolitanism.


I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure that this is the result of one particular modern historian looking at modern China, hating it, and trying to find its opposite somewhere in the past. And they landed on the Tang. The result that this historian then came up with just sounds like that sort of weird idiosyncrasy that sounds cool and unexpected to the casual history reader but also jibes with a lot of modern people's wishful thinking, so it spreads like wildfire.
 

kholieken

Banned
And then there's the broader issue of "cosmopolitan Tang."


People say the Tang were exceptionally cosmopolitan and friendly to barbarians, and this is (a.) true to some extent at certain times, and (b.) pretty overblown, especially when put in context of other empires who did the same stuff, but which we don't describe as such. For example, the Tang employed barbarians as foederati. They put them on the borders, gave them military posts, tried to Sinicize them, and occasionally saw them rebel... just like Rome did, and we don't talk about how barbarophilic Rome was, do we?

They also tolerated foreign religions... up until they didn't, at which point they repressed them so brutally that all of them except Buddhism disappeared from China. They had large foreign populations at the capital... which faced mounting discrimination over time and were often forced to distinguish themselves in dress from Han people explicitly in order to avoid intermixing. I recall a medieval practice involving Jews and yellow stars.

They liked exotic foreign styles... and the French had chinoiserie, and the Qing did the same for western stuff: observe this painting of the Yongzheng emperor cosplaying as a European. Japan in the Sakoku era had a whole field of called Rangaku or "Dutch studies"... and yet I distinctly recall something about them being militant isolationists. By this logic, 17th and 18th century Japan's love for European gadgets is a sign of their profound cosmopolitanism.


I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure that this is the result of one particular modern historian looking at modern China, hating it, and trying to find its opposite somewhere in the past. And they landed on the Tang. The result that this historian then came up with just sounds like that sort of weird idiosyncrasy that sounds cool and unexpected to the casual history reader but also jibes with a lot of modern people's wishful thinking, so it spreads like wildfire.
That too negative. Tang as Cosmopolitan Empire is endorsed by multiple historian. It mostly recent analysis from Western historian that see China conquest dynasties accommodated, retain, and employ many non-Chinese cultural tactic in governing their far-flung lands. Instead of simply traditional method as Chinese historiography analysis.

Tang, Yuan, and Qing using Khan/Khagan titles, having administrative bureau to govern non-Chinese territory, maintain foreign culture, etc.

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Also Han is more culture designations, its not strictly paternal lineage. Many barbarians have been "cooked" and become Han in chinese long history.
 
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