Was Caligula as bad as thought?

[Tanc49]

Hi there,
Simple question: he's thought to be a horrible scum of a human, raping children, appointing horses as consuls as possibly eating puppies alive.

Now, how much is common misconception ( never appointed the horse, just said iit would do a better job), how much is propaganda and how much is fact?

Cheers!

 

[Gortian]

Hi there,
Simple question: he's thought to be a horrible scum of a human, raping children, appointing horses as consuls as possibly eating puppies alive.

Now, how much is common misconception ( never appointed the horse, just said iit would do a better job), how much is propaganda and how much is fact?

Cheers!

Caligula spent his reign surrounded by patricians and equites that had falsely accused and ensured the murder of his father, mother and brothers. He loathed the Roman upper classes and loved the plebs which is why some of the criticism directed at him was that he spent too much time at the gladiatorial games and chariot racing (and actually enjoying them unlike some patricians who just went to be seen).

Caligula's reign started off with him walking the fine line that Augustus had, flattering the Senate into doing what he wanted, but after several conspiracies were discovered to kill him he changed (the fever hadn't helped) and the remainder of his rule was spent humiliating the patricians by dressing up as gods and making them worship him while the plebs laughed in the background or making them regret their venal flattery by forcing them to live up to their boasts.

If you humiliate and despise the men who write history they get the last word and it won't be a nice one.

Anything said about Caligula should be taken with more salt than an entire legions annual pay.

Incitatus was himself a joke at the expense of the Senators. Caligula gave him his own palace and had him send out invites to Senators to "discuss politics over dinner" where they would sit around eating with the Emperor's horse, which was what most Senators did at that point.

He dressed as gods and made a whole stage show of it forcing the patricians to acknowledge him as a god while the plebs stood in the back. At one of these 'shows' a Gallic shoemaker burst out laughing when Caligula came out dressed as Zeus. Caligula asked him to join him on stage and asked the shoemaker what he looked like to him. The Gaul still grinning said he looked "like a great big humbug." Caligula laughed and sent him back to his seat while the Patricians lay prostrate in front of the crowd of plebs.

If you want irredeemable look no further than Nero.

 

[catalfalque]

Whatever the truth about his relationship with his sister it was clearly consensual

The horse thing has been explained as his despising the patrician class, saying his horse would do better than these pampered nobodies sitting in the Senate thinking they rule Rome based solely on his birth

His main problem was probably that he had no real alternative other than to try to placate the people with shows, money and food, which in the long run is holding back a dam and not a policy for advancing

 

[Tanc49]

If you want irredeemable look no further than Nero.

Nero actually always struck me as a young playboy with too much power. Like 2013 Justin Bieber crowned Emperor basically.

For Caligula, if I get it right, it's that he wasn't that bad or crazy but had a bad case of the Domitian by humiliating the rich people over and over again, right?

 

[Gortian]

Nero actually always struck me as a young playboy with too much power. Like 2013 Justin Bieber crowned Emperor basically.

For Caligula, if I get it right, it's that he wasn't that bad or crazy but had a bad case of the Domitian by humiliating the rich people over and over again, right?

I suggest you look up Sporus, Nero's last 'wife' who replaced Poppaeia after he trampled her to death and paraded her corpse around for a week to show she was still alive.

There is hedonism and then there is sadistic pleasure.

Caligula humiliated the rich and powerful, ensuring his name would forever be poisoned in their memory and hadn't the decency to offer the Senate even a the barest mote of flattery to cover up the fact that they were completely powerless against him.

Nero, however, sent out the Praetorians to kidnap the wealthiest Romans and have them write the Emperor as the sole benefactor of their Will then force them to kill themselves. This was done over and over to fund his lavish lifestyle, but he did not intentionally set out to humiliate the patricians and so avoided the same kind of bilious response they had to Caligula.

Tiberius sat on his island with a group of people known as the Stymphalian Perverts (seriously) and did "things" in private.

Caligula was not killed in some grand conspiracy to overthrow tyranny. He was murdered by one of his Praetorian captains, who had a very high effeminate voice and a lisp. Caligula, who was rather rude and uncouth according to the histories, used to laugh uncontrollably every time his captain gave his daily report on palace security and when choosing a password Caligula always insisted on "Venus" or something vaguely feminine with an 's' in it to humiliate him.

There was a rush after Caligula's wifes murder and his daughters head was smashed against a wall for many Senators who had nothing to do with the coup to claim they had been part of it and there was a huge debate in the Senate about what would happen next, while the true power brokers (the Praetorian Guard) pulled the curtain and revealed they had already backed Claudius.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

I suggest you look up Sporus, Nero's last 'wife' who replaced Poppaeia after he trampled her to death and paraded her corpse around for a week to show she was still alive.

There is hedonism and then there is sadistic pleasure.

Who says that hedonism is immoral? Some Roman stoics who plotted against Nero and Christian philosophers? So what? Nero was a pacifist. He was a good emperor, rebuilding Rome to be much more beautiful and safe than before. Also, Sporus was his wife/husband, so Nero takes part in the long history od LGBT people fighting for their rights.

I can't say much about Caligula. Maybe he was just traumatized by the early death of his father Germanicus, maybe he was just a nonconformist. He didn't accept the masquerade named Principate and wanted to fully enjoy his absolute monarchy. IIRC, no real war was fought by Caligula. Is this bad? What he did with his sister wasn't bad in itself. Mind you, Claudius married his niece, and Augustus was said to have a sexual relationship with his adoptive father.

No, I like the Roman emperors, especially Nero. Remember that Nerva, the first of the five good emperors and the founding father of the alimenta system was a good friend of Nero's and served him, just like Vespasian.

 

[Gortian]

Who says that hedonism is immoral? Some Roman stoics who plotted against Nero and Christian philosophers? So what? Nero was a pacifist. He was a good emperor, rebuilding Rome to be much more beautiful and safe than before. Also, Sporus was his wife/husband, so Nero takes part in the long history od LGBT people fighting for their rights.

Hedonism isn't immoral. Sadism is. You read my argument incorrectly.

A pacifist that crushed Boudicca's revolt? That murdered people as a 10 year old kid in the streets of Rome and flaunted his position to get away with it? Who murdered his mother? Who stamped on his wife and unborn son? I've heard Nero called many things. A pacifist is not one of them. Empires are not ruled by timidity.

Sporus means "to seed". He was given that name by Nero as a joke and paraded through Rome to humiliate him after his unwilling and unwanted sex change. It's also theorised that Sporus was the illegitimate son of Nero's father in law who was tortured and raped to send a message.

Don't throw about LGBT in ancient history, the term is not even compatible. Sexual norms were seen in terms of dominance. How you had sex not who you had sex with.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

A pacifist that crushed Boudicca's revolt?

He didn't started it, did he?

Who murdered his mother?

Who previously murdered her husband? Who wanted power for herself?

I've heard Nero called many things. A pacifist is not one of them.

Wasn't he actually criticized by the usual suspects because he didn't conquer anything?

Don't throw about LGBT in ancient history, the term is not even compatible.

The term is compatible. Not fully, but in some way yes.

 

[Gortian]

He didn't started it, did he?

The Roman rulers of Britain, who were empowered by the Emperor, ignored Prastagus' Will that stated he was leaving his kingdom to his daughters nicked his land, valuables and raped his wife and daughters. I would say that was instigation.

Who previously murdered her husband? Who wanted power for herself?

Murdering her friends in the first attempt then when that failed calling the Praetorians to do it for him? She murdered Claudius so her son would get the position of Imperator. He didnt need his mother to murder Brittanicus.

You argued that he was a pacifist and have now changed the argument altogether.

The term is compatible. Not fully, but in some way yes.

A Lesbian would be someone from the island of Lesbos in this era. Sapphic love maybe, but wouldn't be recognised for centuries. Homosexuality as we view it today is not even in the same mindset as the ancient world. Romans and Greeks had relations with whoever they wanted. The Romans viewed domination as the acceptable role in these relationships. Julius Caesar was mocked early in his career for taking it from King Nikomedes of Bithynia and was nicknamed the Queen of Bithynia until he became Dictator. Sulla was famous for his flings with a group of young actors early in his life. Transgenderism would be recognised as being the Galli, powerful priests of eastern religions that commanded respect and awe from the people of the ancient world.

Besides women these groups were not oppressed, marginalised or maligned. They co-existed. The term LGBT is a modern catch all for marginalised and oppressed groups due to current religious and ideological views.

It simply cannot equate with the ancient world. They were ironically a bit more open minded than some today.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Also, Sporus was his wife/husband, so Nero takes part in the long history od LGBT people fighting for their rights.

In what universe is forcibly castrating slaves and then raping them fighting for LGBT rights?

 

[Emperor Constantine]

In what universe is forcibly castrating slaves and then raping them fighting for LGBT rights?

Gotta agree with that. If any Emperor would be considered fighting for LGBT rights it would probably be Elagabalus.

 

[James XI]

The Roman rulers of Britain, who were empowered by the Emperor, ignored Prastagus' Will that stated he was leaving his kingdom to his daughters nicked his land, valuables and raped his wife and daughters. I would say that was instigation.



Murdering her friends in the first attempt then when that failed calling the Praetorians to do it for him? She murdered Claudius so her son would get the position of Imperator. He didnt need his mother to murder Brittanicus.

You argued that he was a pacifist and have now changed the argument altogether.



A Lesbian would be someone from the island of Lesbos in this era. Sapphic love maybe, but wouldn't be recognised for centuries. Homosexuality as we view it today is not even in the same mindset as the ancient world. Romans and Greeks had relations with whoever they wanted. The Romans viewed domination as the acceptable role in these relationships. Julius Caesar was mocked early in his career for taking it from King Nikomedes of Bithynia and was nicknamed the Queen of Bithynia until he became Dictator. Sulla was famous for his flings with a group of young actors early in his life. Transgenderism would be recognised as being the Galli, powerful priests of eastern religions that commanded respect and awe from the people of the ancient world.

Besides women these groups were not oppressed, marginalised or maligned. They co-existed. The term LGBT is a modern catch all for marginalised and oppressed groups due to current religious and ideological views.

It simply cannot equate with the ancient world. They were ironically a bit more open minded than some today.

Yeah, to reiterate; it's not even accurate to say the ancient Greeks/Romans 'ok with homosexuality', but rather that they didn't even consider it a thing until Judeo-Christian morality dominated. Sexual preferences (in terms of gender) didn't define you as a person anymore than you or I would define someone according to what flavour of ice cream they prefer. And tastes weren't considered exclusive...I mean, if you always only liked women, or only liked boys, or w/e, fair enough, but it wasn't considered aberrant to like different things, at different times.

 

[HammerofWar]

From what I've read of Caligula, he was a jerk, but he wasn't Satan

 

[Stolengood]

who replaced Poppaeia after he trampled her to death and paraded her corpse around for a week to show she was still alive.

Erm... hasn't that been long since disproven as an especially heinous bit of malicious slander? Poppaeia died either in childbirth or while pregnant, and Nero was reportedly inconsolable.

 

[Matteo]

Gotta agree with that. If any Emperor would be considered fighting for LGBT rights it would probably be Elagabalus.

It would be an absolute countersense.

Nero's or Heliogabal's dressing into woman had nothing to see with any LGBT consideration. It was a religious/political behaviour that was intended to show that they belonged to the world of gods and that they could perform things that were impossible and/or forbidden to common mortels.

 

[Gortian]

Erm... hasn't that been long since disproven as an especially heinous bit of malicious slander? Poppaeia died either in childbirth or while pregnant, and Nero was reportedly inconsolable.

You are probably right. The story is more than likely a corruption of what later happened with Sporus. Nero's obsession with the slave boy seems to show him still affected by her death. The more typical slander of the era leveled at unpopular Emperors was incest.

To be fair to Nero he (or his very capable Praetorian captains) still carried out the boring paperwork that most people don't know about when it comes to Imperial rule. There was a town in Thrace that has a proclamation from Nero protecting it from theft by locally based legionaries after the townspeople petitioned him.

 

[Michel Van]

Allot missunderstanding and too much "Caligula the Movie" discussion here

The Classical Story as Caligula as "De Sade of Rome" came from Roman Historians who lived generations after Caligula was murder
and only two document survived by Philo and Seneca, first made overview of early reign of Caligula, while Seneca just collect anecdotes on Caligula's life.
The Rest were written 80 and 120 years after Death of Caligula and full of Gossip, legends, anecdotes and Propaganda !
The Current ruling Emperors wanted to be in better light as there illustrious predecessors

Today Historians made allot of Efforts to see the true Story behind the handed down Gossip, legends and anecdotes.
it seem Caligula try to reform the Empire, but failed against Senat and faced rebellion in Army.
the Horse as senator was just a insult of Caligula, toward the opposite senate
the Tale of his Army attacking the Sea, was his punishment as the Troops refuse to Invade England and Irland.
Also is some true behind the story Caligula plans to Move the Empire capital to Alexandra (today Egypt).

also allo exaggeration about Murder and Rape under Caligula reign, it was typical for Roman politician to murder there opponent or use Rape to humiliation there enemies.
if now Roman Senators or Emperors Cesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero. All of them use Murder/Rape as tool for there politics.

So was he Killed because of his hell-raiser life style ?
The Reality is more common, he made several purges in Senat, Army and his the Praetorian Guard.
instead to prevent conspiracy, it United then what let to successful murder of Caligula
Oh hell were those plotter surprised as modest uncle Claudius became emperor...

 

[HIM Dogson]

Comparing him to Domitian is interesting largely because they were so similar but so different. Both wanted to break the nobility, but Domitian had a plan for it; Caligula didn't. I like Domitian, but I can't stand Caligula.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

For the first few months of his reign, Caligulus was said to be admired by everyone in "all the world, from the rising to the setting sun" [1], both because he was the son of Germanicus and because he was not a tyrant like Tiberius. Some 160,000 animals were sacrificed during three months of public rejoicing to usher in his reign. [2]

He started his reign by granting bonuses to those in the military including the Praetorian Guard, city troops and the army outside of Italy ; destroyed Tiberius' treason papers, abolished treason trials, and pardoned those who had been exiled. He also gave restitution to those who had been harmed by taxes under Tiberius; banished sex offenders from Rome; and put on lavish spectacles for the public. [2]

Then he got sick with a fever that nearly killed him, and woke up as the crazy Caligula who needed to be stabbed. If he hadn't gotten sick (or had died) history would have had a much better opinion of him.

1] Cassius Dio, "Roman History", LXVII
[2] Suetonius, "The Lives of the Caesars", III Caligulus

 

[The Vet]

Could he have had mental health issues?