W.I?: British army create commando branch in the 1930s?

[SCOUT 5249]

What if the 1930s the British army decide be it as an experiment or a need decide to create a special task force wholly dedicated to doing missions that are beyond regular line troops?

A task force of commandos at light company strength and armed with the latest weapons is created and trained for raids, assassinations, destroying structures behind enemy lines and destroy obstructions (like tanks and such) before an offensive or delay an enemy counter offensive?

How effective would the commandos be at France and world war two in general?
How influential would they be as the war continues
Would the branch survive post world war two and beyond?
What weapons would the commandos be equipped with?

 

[aaronupright]

Modern special forces are almost entirely a result of the need to strike in Nazi Europe.
Pre summer 1940, the need simply did not exist.

 

[SCOUT 5249]

Modern special forces are almost entirely a result of the need to strike in Nazi Europe.
Pre summer 1940, the need simply did not exist.

Ah yes but then again what if the branch had been created? The practise of going behind the lines originated in world war 1.

 

[aaronupright]

Ah yes but then again what if the branch had been created? The practise of going behind the lines originated in world war 1.

It’s as old as organised warfare itself.
SF as they exist today are a legacy of the conditions of the European front of WW2.
Later such troops were found to be useful in Burma. Post WW2, the need to fight small wars and the unpopularity of using regular troops, coupled with the convenient availablity of many thousand trained, experienced and under employed men made SF the go to.

Even in OTL, it’s been said that leaders are too enamoured with SF. They have been compared to a hammer looking for a nail, and a glass hammer to boot.

If such things are suggested in the 30’s, people are going to ask the obvious question, these fellows are different from raiding parties, how? And no one is setting up a separate force of raiders.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

How effective would the commandos be at France

Dunno about France, maybe they form the bulk of the stay behind troops protecting the Dunkirk pocket?

and world war two in general?
How influential would they be as the war continues
Would the branch survive post world war two and beyond?
What weapons would the commandos be equipped with?

Otherwise, I imagine they pretty much follow OTL

 

[SCOUT 5249]

Dunno about France, maybe they form the bulk of the stay behind troops protecting the Dunkirk pocket?

Probably no on that part loosing so many elite forces in one go would hurt a lot.

 

[TDM]

Dunno about France, maybe they form the bulk of the stay behind troops protecting the Dunkirk pocket?

won't that mean an awful lot of your lovingly highly trained commando dudes spend the rest of the war in a POW camp (albeit making their captors lives hard I'd guess)

I guess some might stay free and possibly hook up with sympathetic locals / proto*-resistance and help them organise, but that kind clandestine OAS stuff isn't strictly normal Commando stuff so the skill sets don't exactly match even if they do overlap in some practical areas.



(ninjae'd)

*this being v.early on after all!

Otherwise, I imagine they pretty much follow OTL

Yep, WW2 might have seen a different organisational strategy and scope but this kind of thing has been going since Og snuck up on Thog to knock his skull in, as opposed to just walking up to him and doing it..

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Probably no on that part loosing so many elite forces in one go would hurt a lot.

Would they be elite forces at this time? Without the experience of a long war, wouldn’t they just be troops with a different role?

That and Dunkirk being what it was, I’d imagine a sacrifice or two would be acceptable to allow the BEF to escape.

 

[SCOUT 5249]

Would they be elite forces at this time? Without the experience of a long war, wouldn’t they just be troops with a different role?

That and Dunkirk being what it was, I’d imagine a sacrifice or two would be acceptable to allow the BEF to escape.

Not the whole company because putting considerable investment both financial and material into a somewhat considerable 'experiment' and having it up and went to smithereens would axe the idea of having a commando branch altogether.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

Not the whole company because putting considerable investment both financial and material into a somewhat considerable 'experiment' and having it up and went to smithereens would axe the idea of having a commando branch altogether.

I wouldn't say it would axe the Commandos if what they did was considered a success. Just because the casualties are high, doesn't mean it's a failure.

 

[TDM]

I wouldn't say it would axe the Commandos if what they did was considered a success. Just because the casualties are high, doesn't mean it's a failure.

thing is in the scenario suggested (Delaying the German advance and keeping the Dunkirk pocket open long enough to allow evacuation) I'm not sure commandos are actually going to be much better than your basic rear guard action! Ultimately if your highly trained commandos are in contact with or mixing it up with enemy front line units your commandos are in the wrong place.

Commando's / special forces tend to have most effect when going after very specific goals with end results that have a magnified effect, and usually doing so away from the sound and the fury. They're not really great at being swapped out for 'normal' troops as some kind of front line force multipliers. Because as highly trained as they might be you can't train people to be bullet or shrapnel proof.

On top of that resources are tight, a victory that's too Pyrrhic is no victory at all long term in a resource war. Especially when there's a list as long as a Leonard Cohen song of alternative places the resources needed to replace these chaps could be spent. I know it's not an exact match but look at what happened with the German paratrooper wing.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

thing is in the scenario suggested (Delaying the German advance and keeping the Dunkirk pocket open long enough to allow evacuation) I'm not sure commandos are actually going to be much better than you basic rear guard action! Ultimately if your highly trained commandos are in contact with or mixing it up with enemy front line units your commandos are in the wrong place.

Good point but I was originally envisaging the Commandos doing Commando things to help the ultimate aim of keeping the pocket open, rather than being on the frontline fighting alongside the regulars.

I know it's not an exact match but look at what happened with the German paratrooper wing

No, I’d say it’s a pretty good example because as far as I’m aware, the fallschirmjägers all suffered their highest casualties when deployed in the frontline as “fire brigades” as opposed to raiding and behind-the-line activities.

 

[KillerT]

One way it could happen is that the Corps of Scouts is more formalised around say 1905, they were the intended users of the scout scope much used in both WW1 and 2.

 

[SCOUT 5249]

One way it could happen is that the Corps of Scouts is more formalised around say 1905, they were the intended users of the scout scope much used in both WW1 and 2.

That would work

 

[Some Bloke]

Maybe use the Scouts for infiltration tactics during WWI?

 

[TDM]

Good point but I was originally envisaging the Commandos doing Commando things to help the ultimate aim of keeping the pocket open, rather than being on the frontline fighting alongside the regulars.

I think it going to be hard to keep the two separate when you trying to do the former against an advancing enemy force in pretty close contact

No, I’d say it’s a pretty good example because as far as I’m aware, the fallschirmjägers all suffered their highest casualties when deployed in the frontline as “fire brigades” as opposed to raiding and behind-the-line activities.

Yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking

 

[jlckansas]

What you are looking at is something that the British army would come up with for use in the Colonial areas like the Northwest Frontier where they had problems. Small, light units that could respond quickly to problems and take care of them until the regular army could arrive, or to work on their own in areas to combat insurgents.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Perhaps the British take more serious note of the Storm Troopers in late WW1 and decide to stand up a 'Commando' troop in every Infantry battalion - ie a Patrol sized unit capable of conducting the difficult type of missions - river crossing, exploiting difficult terrain features etc and these Commando ethos becomes ingrained into the tribal consciousness of the British army just as it starts to expand in the late 30s with a special Commando school or schools created to ensure that the best lessons are shared consistently among those members of the various Battalion commando units.

Being 'Commando' badged becomes a sought after achievement among regulars

NCO and JO training is heavily influenced by these schools and follows the same pattern

And for bonus virtual pie sniper schools are also stood up alongside these Commando initiatives.

 

[SwampTiger]

I agree with the above suggestions. A Scout unit trained in multiple Empire terrains, with feedback from the French/German/Italian experiences in trench raiding and reconnaissance. Maybe officers with experience working with the late war French and Italians are sent to Egypt, India, Iraq and Malaya. They continue training their units in aggressive reconnaissance tactics, slowly adding knowledge from combat engineers to their units. Although considered crazy by their peers, these officers continue to communicate with one another. As they rise through the ranks, they organize a lobby for an improved Corps of Scouts providing recon and raid duties for regular Army units, and specialized duties. Therefore, by 1939, the British Army has a solid cadre of scout/ranger/raider trained troops and units.

Edit: This will also have knock-on effects on weapons and equipment prior to the war. So earlier SMG, auto-rifles, light-weight mortars, mines and specialized kit of various sorts.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

It's not what these Commandos do in the Battle of France that's going to shake things up, they're jus light infantry, it's what they do during the Phoney War. If like the rest of the British and French armies they essentially act like it peace time then the question will be asked "Why did we spend all this time and money training them"?