Władysław Łokietkowic

Jan Olbracht

Władysław Łokietek, King of Poland, had two other sons besides future Casimir the Great, but these sons-Stefan and Władysław, bot died young. Say, that Władysław Jr (few years older than Kazimierz) lives longer, long enough to marry Anna Aldona, but not long enough to outlive father. Władysław Jr dies in 1328, leaving son (Władysław, born 1326) and daughter (Elżbieta, born 1328). What happens after his death? Władysław Łokietek (and his subjects) would rather preffer his adult younger son over grandson, who is still child. Times are too unstable for child king. But that is one thing-what would happen with widowed Anna Aldona? Possibly there would be rumours, that 'pagan witch' is responsible for death of heir. As long as Casimir has no sons of his own (say he has not, like IOTL) young Władysław should be safe. But Poland's relations with Hungary would be more complicated now-there is one more person between Angevins and Polish throne.
@krieger
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Jan Olbracht said:
Władysław Łokietek, King of Poland, had two other sons besides future Casimir the Great, but these sons-Stefan and Władysław, bot died young. Say, that Władysław Jr (few years older than Kazimierz) lives longer, long enough to marry Anna Aldona, but not long enough to outlive father. Władysław Jr dies in 1328, leaving son (Władysław, born 1326) and daughter (Elżbieta, born 1328). What happens after his death? Władysław Łokietek (and his subjects) would rather preffer his adult younger son over grandson, who is still child. Times are too unstable for child king. But that is one thing-what would happen with widowed Anna Aldona? Possibly there would be rumours, that 'pagan witch' is responsible for death of heir. As long as Casimir has no sons of his own (say he has not, like IOTL) young Władysław should be safe. But Poland's relations with Hungary would be more complicated now-there is one more person between Angevins and Polish throne.
@krieger
Click to expand...
Łokietek has a son who is a contemporary of John of Luxembourg, I think Elizabeth of Bohemia can be married off by her sister to that eldest son of Elbowhigh to make her less palatable to the opposition of Anna of Bohemia, alternatively, a marriage between Clemence of Anjou and the eldest son of Łokietek is possible.
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
Władysław Łokietek, King of Poland, had two other sons besides future Casimir the Great, but these sons-Stefan and Władysław, bot died young. Say, that Władysław Jr (few years older than Kazimierz) lives longer, long enough to marry Anna Aldona, but not long enough to outlive father. Władysław Jr dies in 1328, leaving son (Władysław, born 1326) and daughter (Elżbieta, born 1328). What happens after his death? Władysław Łokietek (and his subjects) would rather preffer his adult younger son over grandson, who is still child. Times are too unstable for child king. But that is one thing-what would happen with widowed Anna Aldona? Possibly there would be rumours, that 'pagan witch' is responsible for death of heir. As long as Casimir has no sons of his own (say he has not, like IOTL) young Władysław should be safe. But Poland's relations with Hungary would be more complicated now-there is one more person between Angevins and Polish throne.
@krieger
Click to expand...

Who will Casimir himself marry in the presence of his older brother? Imagine if he married Margaret Maultasch, had a daughter and betrothed this daughter to young Władysław. This could ensure peace and stability in the kingdom. Still, to avoid complications it's better to make additional brother of Casimir III younger, not older. Effect would be approximately the same and there is no risk of civil war and destruction of the realm.
 

Jan Olbracht

krieger said:
Who will Casimir himself marry in the presence of his older brother? Imagine if he married Margaret Maultasch, had a daughter and betrothed this daughter to young Władysław. This could ensure peace and stability in the kingdom. Still, to avoid complications it's better to make additional brother of Casimir III younger, not older. Effect would be approximately the same and there is no risk of civil war and destruction of the realm.
Click to expand...
As long as Władysław is child, he is not that dangerous for uncle, problems could start later. So say, that Casimir has some hunting accident in 1340. His nephew is 14 years old and would be considered adult (and is exceptionaly mature for his age, capable, and so on). How do you think he would deal with situation? Being 16 years younger than Casimir, and being of the same age as Louis d'Anjou, could he get similar Hungarian support for promising Angevins succession if he has no sons?
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
As long as Władysław is child, he is not that dangerous for uncle, problems could start later. So say, that Casimir has some hunting accident in 1340. His nephew is 14 years old and would be considered adult (and is exceptionaly mature for his age, capable, and so on). How do you think he would deal with situation? Being 16 years younger than Casimir, and being of the same age as Louis d'Anjou, could he get similar Hungarian support for promising Angevins succession if he has no sons?
Click to expand...

If he has this personality, as you are describing him that (regarding Hungarian question) he should deal with in the same way in which Casimir acted OTL. But Casimir could still marry and still have children, so I would ask once again - who would Casimir marry ITTL? Maybe he could marry Margaret Maultasch as a candidate of compromise between Luxembourgs and Habsburgs. And he could have a daughter (named Margaret, born 1325) who could be a decent bride for young Vladislaus. And Vladislaus is a grandson of Gediminas as well as Łokietek's and it could prevent Polish-Lithuanian war over Galizia.
 

Jan Olbracht

Margaret Maultasch seems ok. But once Casimir dies, Vladislaus does not need to marry his daughter, it would be waste.
Also, Władysław II is significantly younger than Kazimierz III, he also has long living relatives (grandparents, aunt). Living as long as Elżbieta Łokietkówna he would rule until start of 15th century. What do you think capable ruler could achieve in Poland by all these decades?
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
Margaret Maultasch seems ok. But once Casimir dies, Vladislaus does not need to marry his daughter, it would be waste.
Also, Władysław II is significantly younger than Kazimierz III, he also has long living relatives (grandparents, aunt). Living as long as Elżbieta Łokietkówna he would rule until start of 15th century. What do you think capable ruler could achieve in Poland by all these decades?
Click to expand...

Not waste. Tirol is very, very valuable. Tirol is a card, which could even give Vladislaus Silesia (or a lot of cash), so marrying Casimir's daughter is definitely not a waste. We should at first analize events, which took place at the time of OTL Kasimir's lifetime. At first, Felician Zah would be probably still alive, because with Casimir being married to Maultasch and not being direct heir of Łokietek is not going to seduce/rape Klara Zah. At the second, we should rethink Galicia's fate. Could young Vladislaus get it all without the war or peacefully divide it with uncle Lubart?
 

Jan Olbracht

We could not exclude possibility, that Zah tried to kill Charles Robert for political reasons, so I'm not sure if he would still be alive.
If Gediminas lives a bit longer... Perhaps he could even hope to gain influence in Poland through his young grandson?
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
We could not exclude possibility, that Zah tried to kill Charles Robert for political reasons, so I'm not sure if he would still be alive.
If Gediminas lives a bit longer... Perhaps he could even hope to gain influence in Poland through his young grandson?
Click to expand...

I bet he could still be alive. Politically there was little to gain for him from murdering Charles Robert. It could be a factor. Gediminas could hope to achieve some sort of contact with Western world without Teutonic influence. If Lubart had a child from his first wife, than we could see a peaceful division of Galizia connected with betrothal/wedding of young Elżbieta to ATL Lubart's son.
 

Jan Olbracht

ITTL 1340 could be reverse of OTL situation: Polish-Lithuanian relations deterioriated after death of Anna Aldona and Gediminas, ITTL after death of Casimir Polish throne is taken by Gediminas' grandson.
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
ITTL 1340 could be reverse of OTL situation: Polish-Lithuanian relations deterioriated after death of Anna Aldona and Gediminas, ITTL after death of Casimir Polish throne is taken by Gediminas' grandson.
Click to expand...

It's quite probable, but there is one problem. Casimir made a peace with TO in 1343. Would be TO prone to such a peace with Gediminas grandson being King of Poland?
 

Jan Olbracht

krieger said:
It's quite probable, but there is one problem. Casimir made a peace with TO in 1343. Would be TO prone to such a peace with Gediminas grandson being King of Poland?
Click to expand...
True. Also, Władysław II, not having to fight with Lithuanians, could be less willing to make peace. TO may keep Dobrzyń and Cuiavia longer than IOTL.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top