US Victory in Vietnam

Deleted member 1487

North Vietnam didn’t burn up their insurgency in Tet.

The VWP burnt (unintentionally) their main and provincial PLAF manoeuvre units. These were permanently downgraded And backfilled with northern recruits on occasion. Local PLAF forces were seriously attritted but were rebuilt internally because they were primarily security and political in nature. Almost no NFL or VWP political assets were exposed in Tet.

Claiming “the insurgency” was dealt with by 1972 is invidious. The peace treaty left significant areas under PRG control. In other areas PLAF or PAVN units were rendered inoperable or ineffective. But, as with the Australians, this is sweeping your shit under your neighbours carpet. Making claims about an insurgency being dealt with when units are stood up but inactive, OPFOR security forces are acknowledged in control of a lot of claimed territory in a peace agreement, and where OPFOR’s state formation is operational throughout your state is…deceptive.
A significant number of VC were killed, and between 1969 and 1971 the program was quite successful in destroying VC infrastructure in many important areas. By 1970, communist plans repeatedly emphasized attacking the government's pacification program and specifically targeted Phoenix officials. The VC also imposed quotas. In 1970, for example, communist officials near Da Nang in northern South Vietnam instructed their assassins to "kill 1,400 persons" deemed to be government "tyrant" and to "annihilate" anyone involved with the pacification program. Several North Vietnamese officials have made statements about the effectiveness of Phoenix.[17] According to William Colby, "in the years since 1975, I have heard several references to North and South Vietnamese communists who state that, in their mind, the toughest period that they faced from 1960 to 1975 was the period from 1968 to '72 when the Phoenix Program was at work."[32] The CIA claimed that through Phoenix they were able to learn the identity and structure of the VCI in every province.[24]
....
After Phoenix Program abuses began receiving negative publicity, the program was officially shut down, although it continued under the name Plan F-6[42][43][44][45][46] with the government of South Vietnam in control.[45][44]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program#cite_note-48

In 1972 CORDS reported that since the 1968 Tet Offensive, Phoenix had removed over 5,000 VCI from action, and that conventional military actions and desertions--some prompted by Phoenix--accounted for over 20,000 more. MACV claimed that Phoenix and the US military's response to the Tet Offensive, along with other rural security, and militia programs, had eliminated upwards of 80,000 VCI through defection, detention, or death.

That figure lies on the high end of estimates, all of which were dependent on statistics of varying reliability. By most accounts, however--including those of Vietnamese communists--Phoenix (which ended in 1971) and other pacification programs drove the VCI so far underground that it was unable to operate effectively. In the 1972 Easter offensive, and again in 1975, there was no sign of the VCI or the Viet Cong military because Phoenix and its allied activities had dealt them a very serious blow.
As early as December 1968, it was apparent to the Tay Ninh PRU that most of the senior VCI cadre had been either killed or captured in the months after Tet or had been driven into neighboring Cambodia. As a credible political threat, the VC had ceased to function in any meaningful way by the time I left Vietnam in June 1970.4

Further proof of the PRU's effectiveness came in 1975, when the communists finally defeated the South Vietnamese. The NVA commander occupying Tay Ninh Province would put in a hurried request to North Vietnam for 200 civilian political cadre. He reported that there were only six local VC cadre left in the province to manage the province's affairs.
Tay Ninh Province was the terminus for the Cambodian Ho Chi Minh Trail.

See below too.

The VC insurgency was still alive after Tet, but it both rallied many on the fence in South Vietnam against them and caused massive losses.

Before Tet I would have said without American troops they would have overcome South Vietnam on their own. Post-Tet they really needed a North Vietnamese invasion to overcome the state. Though they could and did continue to operate as a solid phase two insurgency which was quite a feat after their losses.
70% of the VC were PAVN regulars after the losses they took:
According to General Tran Van Tra, 45,267 PAVN/VC troops had been killed during 1968[161] From this point forward, Hanoi was forced to fill nearly 70% of the VC's ranks with PAVN regulars.[169] PRG Justice Minister Trương Như Tảng said that the Tet Offensive had wiped out half of the VC's strength,[170] while the official Vietnamese war history notes that by 1969, very little communist-held territory ("liberated zones") existed in South Vietnam.[171] Following the Tet Offensive and subsequent U.S.-South Vietnamese "search and hold" operations in the countryside throughout the rest of 1968, the VC's recruiting base was more or less wiped out; the official Vietnamese war history later noted that "we could not maintain the level of local recruitment we had maintained in previous years. In 1969 we were only able to recruit 1,700 new soldiers in Region 5 (compared with 8,000 in 1968), and in the lowlands of Cochin China we recruited only 100 new soldiers (compared with 16,000 in 1968)."[172] As also noted by the official history, "because our armed local forces had suffered severe losses, guerrilla operations had declined."[173]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

marathag

Banned
Whether or not the VC was around after 1970, it remains that in the areas the RVN controlled, it was firmer than ever.
A trip on many of the Highways no longer needed a full on convoy with firebase support, traffic was unmolested, unthinkable given how things were in 1966

VC running Deathsquads thru Hue really focused the people in the South what 'Unification' really meant. Regional and Popular Forces became far more effective than ever.
 
So what is 'COIN right'?

Basically it means taking control of the situation and acceding to the Insurgents demands on your terms, not theirs. This is where the US keeps failing. In Vietnam they believed the only option was to inflict a Western Democratic State on South Vietnam. That didn't work. The NLF existed and grew, the more repressive the Republic became. It was aided by Vietnamese, not aliens, who believed in a Communist state.

In Iraq, the US made initial, similar mistakes. They moved in, defeated Saddam's army and disbanded it and sent all the soldiers home. Well, that made a lot of unemployed soldiers and the only trade they knew was war and so they fought it as guerrillas. Washington had taken over Iraq without a plan and it showed. Then Al Q'aeda and eventually Daesh moved in and tried to take over the insurgency. They decided to marry into the local Tribes/Clans. The local tribal Chiefs didn't like that and so they turned on the insurgency and destroyed it. The US had also, by about two years into it's occupation had woken up. Petraus brought in the "surge" and put enough soldiers on the ground to actually control the situation. They started in the cities and moved outwards. Iraq lacked also a dense Jungle, and the US had invested heavily in sophisticated surveillance equipment.

Seems like the common problem is an insurgency supplied from neighboring countries that are untouchable where insurgents can fall back into and regroup if needed.

The USAF relearnt a valuable lesson - air offensives must be hard and they must be fast. Washington believed it could apply "the screw" slowly. The main problem was that there weren't the targets that an air offensive could attack and destroy in North Vietnam. The USAF instead of flattening Hanoi decided to attack individual targets and that failed to intimidate the North's Government. They learnt to cope with air raids, they learnt to repair the damage and to disperse the targets. That meant they could keep up their resupply efforts to the South with relative immunity. When the US Navy and USAF started mining Haiphong, that was that forced them to the negotiating table.

Many years ago I read an interesting paper that had the idea that if the US had engage in unrestricted submarine warfare against North Vietnam, the war would have finished much earlier. It made a convincing argument. If the US had used its full air force and it's full navy, the war would have been slowed, perhaps even stopped in South Vietnam.

Iran wasn't sending people, but then they had a fertile recruiting ground in the occupied country. In Vietnam it was enemy troops constantly being infiltrated in and doing some local recruiting as possible, which waxed and waned. Ultimately Vietnam was not lost until the US pulled out and left the South to hang, while in Iraq 'success' was achieved because militias finally realized that to get the US out they had to calm down for a while and let the US claim a political victory and be able to pull out. Then they went back to pushing for control.

No, as already related, what defeated the insurgency in Iraq was that the insurgents learnt not to cross tribal/clan chieftains. That was what destroyed them in the end. Al Q'aeda and Daesh tried to emulate what the Iranians had done in Lebanon. They married into the local power structure and gained control of it. Al Q'aeda and Daesh were amateurs in comparison.

What you describe in Iraq is what the US did in Vietnam, but to a much larger degree, but that ultimate didn't work either at least permanently. Even the cited Aussie example only worked locally and ended as soon as the VC shifted right back to the area when the Aussies left. The most successful COIN examples, Malaya and the Philippines worked because they were isolated on islands or a peninsula with little external support. Same with Adan in the 1960s.

The Australian example is of a strategy that worked. Sure, there were mistakes made (the minefield barrier for example) but the emphasis was on the local communities and not the power bloc at the centre of Vietnamese society. The US Army wasn't interested in what the locals were doing. They were concerned, in their view, with the "big picture" believing they were at war with the Kremlin or Beijing rather than some local honcho who had a beef with the local power structure of the Republic. In Iraq, Petraus learnt the lessons from Vietnam and from previous US COIN efforts in the Philippines and the westward reach of their own national endeavours and applied them. The key was "Last of the Mohicans" not some unsound view of a cold war about to go hot in Europe.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Australian example is of a strategy that worked.
Overall, the tactics used by the Australian Army in Vietnam were not successful. Like the Americans, Australian tactics were focused on seeking to engage the Communist forces in battle and ultimately failed as the Communists were generally able to evade Australian forces when conditions were not favourable. Moreover, the Australians did not devote sufficient resources to disrupting the logistical infrastructure which supported the Communist forces in Phước Tuy Province and popular support for the Communists remained strong. After 1 ATF was withdrawn in 1971 the insurgency in Phước Tuy rapidly expanded.[71]

Palazzo 2006, pp. 156–158.
  • Palazzo, Albert (2006). Australian Military Operations in Vietnam. Canberra: Army History Unit, Australian War Memorial. ISBN 1-876439-10-6.
By the words of the Australian official history of Vietnam their tactics didn't work.

Their 'success' was in small units tactics, which admittedly were good because of their experience in jungle warfare and COIN operations in the region. Also they used a small unit of high quality manpower, which the US didn't, so it wasn't as if the US could copy Australian small unit tactics with variable quality conscript manpower that took a year or so, just about the time they were leaving the country, to actually learn how to operate well in small units in Vietnam. In fact the US had the problem of using only people who couldn't find a way out of the draft:

The Aussies also sent their SAS and matched up with the NZ regulars and SAS as well. They were so good at small unit operations because of how small the commitment was and how they were trained and could select conscripts for deployment, luxuries the US did not have. Their peak commitment was only 8,000 men!

Not only that, but they were operating basically in only a single province and one that was furthest away from the most dangerous zones:
1 ATF was based in a rubber plantation at Nui Dat, 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) north of Ba Ria in Phuoc Tuy Province and consisted of two and later three infantry battalions, with armour, aviation, engineers and artillery support. While the task force was primarily responsible for securing Phuoc Tuy Province, its units, and the Task Force Headquarters itself, occasionally deployed outside its Tactical Area of Responsibility.

Although 1 ATF had been able to dominate its area of operations and successfully reduced the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong's ability to "influence and coerce" the population of the province, while affording the South Vietnamese government some degree of control, this did not last following their withdrawal, and communist forces began to move back into Phuoc Tuy following their departure. Ultimately, despite maintaining a reputation for professionalism, the operations of the task force had little impact on the final outcome of the war.[59]

vietnam.gif


As to their 'hearts and minds' program...
Although extensive, these programs were often undertaken without reference to the local population and it was not until 1969 that villagers were involved in determining what projects would be undertaken and in their construction. Equally, ongoing staff and material support was usually not provided, while maintenance and sustainment was the responsibility of the provincial government which often lacked the capacity or the will to provide it, limiting the benefit provided to the local population.[74] The program continued until 1 ATF's withdrawal in 1971, and although it may have succeeded in generating goodwill towards Australian forces, it largely failed to increase support for the South Vietnamese government in the province. Equally, while the program made some useful contributions to the civil facilities and infrastructure in Phước Tuy which remained following the Australian departure, it had little impact on the course of the conflict.[76]

  • Frost, Frank (1987). Australia's War in Vietnam. North Sydney: Allen & Unwin. ISBN 004355024X.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SwampTiger

Banned
The rise of Ky and the return of Catholic political dominance eliminated any viable access to influence in government by the Buddhist majority. The RVN was doomed to instability and authoritarian rule from this point. Political and bureaucratic corruption and mismanagement crippled the RVN's military and political efforts to defeat the insurgency and North Vietnamese invasions.. The American troops were not able to carry the entire burden at any time during the war. I agree the Ho Chi Minh Trail should have received a greater focus. US diplomacy needed to get Laos on board with American Army force insertion early. The River Assault Groups(RAGs), Mobile Riverine Force, Operation Market Time and Operation Game Warden had great success in the Mekong Delta, coastal regions and the southern region from 1969/70 to 1973. The failure of MACV to utilize the Marine Force in these operations boggles the mind.

I am really surprised this thread is still active.

Note: The average South Vietnamese didn't care much about Communism in their daily life. They wanted to be left alone by both sides.
 
Last edited:
"Australian counter-insurgency tactics and civic action

Historian Albert Palazzo comments that when the Australians entered the Vietnam War, it was with their own "well considered ...concept of war", and this was often contradictory or in conflict with US concepts.[62] The 1 ATF light infantry tactics such as patrolling, searching villages without destroying them (with a view to eventually converting them), and ambush and counter ambush drew criticism from some US commanders. General William Westmoreland is reported to have complained to Major General Tim Vincent that 1 ATF was "not being aggressive enough".[63] By comparison, US forces sought to flush out the enemy and achieve rapid and decisive victory through "brazen scrub bashing" and the use of "massive firepower."[64] Australians acknowledged they had much to learn from the US forces about heliborne assault and joint armour and infantry assaults. Yet the US measure of success—the body count—was apparently held in contempt by many 1 ATF battalion commanders.[65]

In 1966 journalist Gerald Stone described tactics then being used by Australian soldiers newly arrived in Vietnam:

The Australian battalion has been described ...as the safest combat force in Vietnam... It is widely felt that the Australians have shown themselves able to give chase to the guerrillas without exposing themselves to the lethal ambushes that have claimed so many American dead... Australian patrols shun jungle tracks and clearings... picking their way carefully and quietly through bamboo thickets and tangled foliage... .It is a frustrating experience to trek through the jungle with Australians. Patrols have taken as much as nine hours to sweep a mile of terrain. They move forward a few steps at a time, stop, listen, then proceed again.[66]
Looking back on ten years of reporting the war in Vietnam and Cambodia, journalist Neil Davis said in 1983: "I was very proud of the Australian troops. They were very professional, very well trained and they fought the people they were sent to fight—the Viet Cong. They tried not to involve civilians and generally there were fewer casualties inflicted by the Australians."[67] Another perspective on Australian operations was provided by David Hackworth, Vietnam's most decorated US soldier. "The Aussies used squads to make contact... and brought in reinforcements to do the killing; they planned in the belief that a platoon on the battlefield could do anything." [68]

For some Viet Cong leaders there was no doubt the Australian jungle warfare approach was effective. One former Viet Cong leader is quoted as saying: "worse than the Americans were the Australians. The Americans style was to hit us, then call for planes and artillery. Our response was to break contact and disappear if we could...The Australians were more patient than the Americans, better guerrilla fighters, better at ambushes. They liked to stay with us instead of calling in the planes. We were more afraid of their style."[69] According to Albert Palazzo, as a junior partner, the Australians had little opportunity to influence US strategy in the war: "the American concept [of how the war should be fought] remained unchallenged and it prevailed almost by default."[70]

Overall, the tactics used by the Australian Army in Vietnam were not successful. Like the Americans, Australian tactics were focused on seeking to engage the Communist forces in battle and ultimately failed as the Communists were generally able to evade Australian forces when conditions were not favourable. Moreover, the Australians did not devote sufficient resources to disrupting the logistical infrastructure which supported the Communist forces in Phước Tuy Province and popular support for the Communists remained strong. After 1 ATF was withdrawn in 1971 the insurgency in Phước Tuy rapidly expanded.[71]

Meanwhile, although the bulk of Australian military resources in Vietnam were devoted to operations against the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces, a civic action program was also undertaken to assist the local population and government authorities in Phước Tuy. This included projects aimed at winning the support of the people and was seen as an essential element of Australian counter-revolutionary doctrine.[72] Australian forces had first undertaken some civic action projects in 1965 while 1 RAR was operating in Biên Hòa, and similar work was started in Phước Tuy following the deployment of 1 ATF in 1966.[73] In June 1967 the 40-man 1st Australian Civil Affairs Unit (1 ACAU) was established to undertake the program.[74] By 1970 this unit had grown to 55 men, with detachments specialising in engineering, medical, education and agriculture.[73]

During the first three years of the Australian presence civic action was mainly an adjunct to military operations, the unit taking part in the cordon and search of villages and resettlement programs, as well as occasionally in directly aiding and reconstructing villages that had been damaged in major actions. In the final years of the Australian presence it became more involved in assistance to villages and to the provincial administration. While 1 ACAU was the main agency involved in such tasks, at times other task force units were also involved in civic action programs. Activities included construction and public works, medical and dental treatment, education, agriculture development and youth and sports programs.[75]

Although extensive, these programs were often undertaken without reference to the local population and it was not until 1969 that villagers were involved in determining what projects would be undertaken and in their construction. Equally, ongoing staff and material support was usually not provided, while maintenance and sustainment was the responsibility of the provincial government which often lacked the capacity or the will to provide it, limiting the benefit provided to the local population.[74] The program continued until 1 ATF's withdrawal in 1971, and although it may have succeeded in generating goodwill towards Australian forces, it largely failed to increase support for the South Vietnamese government in the province. Equally, while the program made some useful contributions to the civil facilities and infrastructure in Phước Tuy which remained following the Australian departure, it had little impact on the course of the conflict.[76]"
[Source]

Why not quote the whole section from Wikipedia rather than just a small part? Yes, the Australians didn't devote sufficient resources to Vietnam but then, it had other responsibilities in the region. At the same time as it was intervening in Vietnam, it was fighting Indonesia in Borneo, the CTs in Malaysia. It was also responsible for PNG's defence as well as the defence of it's own homeland, the continent of Australia. When the Army was sent to Vietnam, it was just accepting Conscripts. Before this, until 1965, it had consisted of only one reinforced brigade (or "Task Force" in its Pentropic vernacular), which was basically three infantry battalions plus supporting elements. It was fully committed, to Malaysia, Borneo and Vietnam as well as elsewhere. By 1969, the forces in Vietnam consisted of a Task Force plus supporting elements, over 8000 men. This was sufficient to allow it to not only subdue Phuoc Tuy but also operate in the surrounding provinces.

The use of the word "Tactics" in this context is mistaken. It should use the word "Operational Strategy" or just "strategy". Tactically, the NLF/PAVN acknowledges that the Australians were their superiors. Strategically, they were their inferiors. There is a difference there which is should be acknowledged.

The forces devoted to Vietnam consisted of both regular and conscript forces. The conscripts were mixed with the regulars and fought just as effectively. The US used conscripts very differently. Very differently. Sending entire units made up of conscripts, with only professional NCOs/Officers.

Australian forces according to Ross, Hall and Griffin in "The Search for Tactical Success in Vietnam: An Analysis of Australian Task Force Combat Operations", the Australians invariably won all their direct combat engagements with the NLF and PAVN. They dominated the battlefield and the NLF and PAVN found operating in Phuoc Tuy more expensive than operating elsewhere, so they tended to operate elsewhere. Compare that to the US Army's performance, flitting around from place to place. Yes, they defeated the NFL/PAVN forces they encountered but they then vacated the battle area leaving it to the enemy to allow them to rebuild. The US's idea of how to conduct a COIN operation differed markedly from the Australian one.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1487

But this ended in the establishment of a communist government in South Yemen, why are you using it as a positive example of COIN?
Misremembered it being a victory due to a number of successful operations during it.
 
Top