Underestimated countries
- Thread starter Fabilius
- Start date
Seconded. Lithuania is unjustly ignored in AH due to its being such an unimportant nation today.
Max Sinister
Banned
That's the problem: They were the smallest nation surrounded by many stronger ones. Only under extraordinary circumstances they could come as far as they did IOTL. Things could have been even worse. They could have shared the fate of the Livonians and Courians(?).
The USA is the most underestimated country in here by far.Keep in mind,people-the term is underestimated,not infrequently mentioned. No one cares that your country doesnt conquer all its neighbors frequently enough for your taste.The term is underestimated,which means people expect that it will be suffer unrealistic defeats often enough for the forum's resident Eurotrash to feel happy.
Define 'unrealistic defeats' - throughout history, many nations have been affected by defeats that many people considered and still consider to be unrealistic.
And because unrealistic defeats happened to other nations, why should they not happen to the USA in an AH scenario?
PS - "Eurotrash"...?
What about the Westslavs: Vendes, Abodrites...
They had well established countries and were able to drive the Germans out in the big slavic uprising.
And then, of course: the Dutch, all Sub-Saharan Africans, pretty much all Muslim states, Indian states, inner Asia (Samakrand and the like), Burgundy (not the old one, the newer one which becomes Hapsburg lateron). Most Balkan states.
Finally, I'd say China. Given Chinese population and technological superiority over centuries as well as cultural dominance in east asia, any Timeline which does not contain a chinese superpower should in fact be considered unrealistic. The most plausible outcome of da Gama reaching India should be that he's sent to some chinese mandarin to ask for the allowance to trade with India.
They had well established countries and were able to drive the Germans out in the big slavic uprising.
And then, of course: the Dutch, all Sub-Saharan Africans, pretty much all Muslim states, Indian states, inner Asia (Samakrand and the like), Burgundy (not the old one, the newer one which becomes Hapsburg lateron). Most Balkan states.
Finally, I'd say China. Given Chinese population and technological superiority over centuries as well as cultural dominance in east asia, any Timeline which does not contain a chinese superpower should in fact be considered unrealistic. The most plausible outcome of da Gama reaching India should be that he's sent to some chinese mandarin to ask for the allowance to trade with India.
general_tiu
Banned
Does Korea count too as well? In many AH scenarios, either China or Japan annexes it.
Max Sinister
Banned
The Balkan is very divided by geography; the west Slavs also weren't unified, while the Germans were; and the Dutch were pretty powerful for being a small country IOTL.
Thanks Leo, I'll do my best.
Another country I came to think of was Aragon.
When Ferdinand married Isabella Castille took over the whole peninsula.
Why was Ferdinand such a pu..y why didn't he make Aragon the major power of the two? Then Catalan could have been the major language in the Americas. Since Aragon was on the eastern coast maybe España would have been even more concentrated on the Mediterranean sea, another crusade?
Aye, Aragon would have made it big time if only old Ferdinand had
stopped sitting under the cork tree smelling the blossoms.
Another country I came to think of was Aragon.
When Ferdinand married Isabella Castille took over the whole peninsula.
Why was Ferdinand such a pu..y why didn't he make Aragon the major power of the two? Then Catalan could have been the major language in the Americas. Since Aragon was on the eastern coast maybe España would have been even more concentrated on the Mediterranean sea, another crusade?
Aye, Aragon would have made it big time if only old Ferdinand had
stopped sitting under the cork tree smelling the blossoms.
Well, as Max pointed out Castile had more population, territory and resources. I have not numbers in this moment but I think that there were 2 or 3 Castilians for each 1 Aragonese at that time. Plus, Aragon had just emerged from a long time (around 200 years) of crisis caused by the repeated hits of the Black Death and political and social turmoil.
However, you are wrong if yo think that Ferdinand didn't work for Aragon's benefit during his reign. Castile had nothing to win from the Italian Wars, the expeditions to Barbary and the new anti-French alliances with England, Burgundy and the HRE. All those things were the result of clear Aragonese ambitions, and they lead to a series of stupid enterprises in Northern Europe during the next 200 years which weren't anything good for Castile nor Spain.
By the way, Catalan wasn't the only language in the Crown of Aragon. Sicilian, Sardinian and (obviously) Aragonese had a large number of speakers at that time.
Note - An I the only one who likes the sounding of "Eurotrash"?
Last edited:
My personal list of underestimated countries:
1) Afghanistan - given the fact that Afghani tribesmen managed to conquer Iran for short time in XVIII century and successfuly rebuffed both Great Moghols and the British, it's quite likely that in the beginning of the XVIII century Afghanistan could have become major Asian power:
2) Nepal - this mountain country was united and was successfully conquering surrounding territories in Northern India in the beginning of XIX century. But for the East India Company interference, Nepal may have become a powerful Indian state. The Great Moghols had also been a bunch of Babur's refugees in the beginning, hadn't they?
3) Cambodia - but for the Tyam invasion in 1400s and lose of influence to Siam, the Kambudjadesha Empire may have been existing for quite long period of time. It would be good to see the TL that embarks on such alternative:
4) Tibet - WI the Great Tibet Empire of VII-VIII centuries had survived the Lang-Darma's disastrous rule and still been the power to reckon with on the Far East?
5) Ukraine - WI Boghdan Hmelnitskyi had continued his assault on Poland in 1648 and defeated the Ryech Pospolyta, thus creating the Ukrainian Cossack State?
1) Afghanistan - given the fact that Afghani tribesmen managed to conquer Iran for short time in XVIII century and successfuly rebuffed both Great Moghols and the British, it's quite likely that in the beginning of the XVIII century Afghanistan could have become major Asian power:
2) Nepal - this mountain country was united and was successfully conquering surrounding territories in Northern India in the beginning of XIX century. But for the East India Company interference, Nepal may have become a powerful Indian state. The Great Moghols had also been a bunch of Babur's refugees in the beginning, hadn't they?
3) Cambodia - but for the Tyam invasion in 1400s and lose of influence to Siam, the Kambudjadesha Empire may have been existing for quite long period of time. It would be good to see the TL that embarks on such alternative:
4) Tibet - WI the Great Tibet Empire of VII-VIII centuries had survived the Lang-Darma's disastrous rule and still been the power to reckon with on the Far East?
5) Ukraine - WI Boghdan Hmelnitskyi had continued his assault on Poland in 1648 and defeated the Ryech Pospolyta, thus creating the Ukrainian Cossack State?
Superdude
Banned
Say what? I'm pretty certain the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a large and powerful country.
Max Sinister
Banned
At the beginning, they weren't really bigger than today. Then Genghis Khan came, and destroyed many Russians princedoms, and put fear in the others, so Lithuania had no problems to expand into that direction. Those were the extraordinary circumstances I was talking about. I don't think Lithuania could've gone such a long way if Russia had been free instead, with the Teutonics next door.
It´s a good WI. Nice input.
Ahhh.... it looks like I´ve only quoted you, read carefully...
Last edited:
Firstly, there are theories that Ivan the Terrible was mad due to mercury poisoning.
Secondly, how ofter does one see a super-Norway instead of an Uber-Sweden?
Secondly, how ofter does one see a super-Norway instead of an Uber-Sweden?