"Uncle Adolf"
- Thread starter reddie
- Start date
If the west is rational, nothing.
I mean, seriously. Stalin was a monster, but he was ultimately a control freak. Stalin would *never* dream of taking over the world in his lifetime, unlike Hitler. As someone who valued total control, he never would have taken risky gambles like Hitler, for fear that the state would drift out of his control. Stalin might have dreamed of worldwide revolution one day, but his ultimate goal was the stability and security of the USSR.
I mean, seriously. Stalin was a monster, but he was ultimately a control freak. Stalin would *never* dream of taking over the world in his lifetime, unlike Hitler. As someone who valued total control, he never would have taken risky gambles like Hitler, for fear that the state would drift out of his control. Stalin might have dreamed of worldwide revolution one day, but his ultimate goal was the stability and security of the USSR.
WW2 era America throw her support behind Hitler
The key is Britain. The U.S. supported Britain. The Soviet Union just happened to be a co-bellegerent on Britain's side. You need to make Germany a co-bellegerent fighting on the same side as the British.
Perhaps the Soviet Union comes to blows with Britain either in Afghanistan or Iran. Alternately, Stalin beats Hitler to the punch and invades Poland prior to September 1939.
German chances are greatly improved if Hitler does not break his word concerning Czechoslovakia. Perhaps Hitler has an "intuition" and decides that the Czechoslovakia issue should wait a year or 2 for final resolution.
The key is Britain. The U.S. supported Britain. The Soviet Union just happened to be a co-bellegerent on Britain's side. You need to make Germany a co-bellegerent fighting on the same side as the British.
Perhaps the Soviet Union comes to blows with Britain either in Afghanistan or Iran. Alternately, Stalin beats Hitler to the punch and invades Poland prior to September 1939.
German chances are greatly improved if Hitler does not break his word concerning Czechoslovakia. Perhaps Hitler has an "intuition" and decides that the Czechoslovakia issue should wait a year or 2 for final resolution.
Well, in anything resembling our WW2, the problem was that, strange as it may sound, Stalin had a fair bit of sympathy in the United States, mostly for just being the guy running "the first socialist state" and all that. If you sniff around, you'll see that pro-Soviet ideas were a little more common before WW2 than you'd think. I'm uncertain as to whether or not Hitler had many sympathizers beyond the usual lunatics and arch-racists.
Of course, if someone began publishing about what Stalin was doing in Darkest Russia in the 1930's, there may be some sober second thought on this issue.
Of course, if someone began publishing about what Stalin was doing in Darkest Russia in the 1930's, there may be some sober second thought on this issue.
Really? If you have a source on this, could you post it for me? I'm only going on what I've generally heard about, so I could be wrong.Superdude said:
Grettir Asmundarsen
Banned
reddie said:
Easy. Trotsky wins the power struggle for succession; successfully invades Germany through Poland, following his plan to use the Russian people as cannon-fodder, and liberates Bavaria (which had elected a communist gov't and seceded in 1919). Trotsky goes on to conquer Finland, raising alarm bells in London and Washington.
Germany, still an economic and military basketcase, reeling from the insult of Soviet occupation of Bavaria atop the injury of Versailles, would've elected Hitler (who was elected through the democratic process in OTL); they'd've been allowed to rearm but would not have been able to do it quickly enough to keep the SovComs from utilizing the industrial centers of Bavaria and Czechoslovakia to make use of Russian natural resources.
Trotsky, of course was Jewish (as were the vast majority of Mensheviks and a large percentage of Bolsheviks), which might've led to a different present-day picture of the Shoah.
One way Germany might succeed in getting western support in her struggle against Russia might be Poland. Suppose that Hitler realizes that the western powers will not brook another Czechoslovakia - like take over. Needless to say, this is a huge stretch, but let us suppose that the general staff proposes another means to dismember Poland but without getting Germany getting the bad press. Abwehr agents quietly slip across the Polish border and make their way to the Polish - Russian border, and fire upon Russian patrols while wearing Polish uniforms. The Russians are angry and Poland denies everything; Ribbentrop meanwhile offers a non - official partition of Poland - he supplies Stalin with intelligence reports declaring that a Polish sneak attack is in the works. A couple more border skirmishes lead Stalin to believe it's real, despite the fact that Zhukov and others question the authenticity.
Having had enough of Polish lies and confronted with the facts presented by his 'friend' Hitler, Stalin agrees to attack Poland at a set date, September 15, 1939. After the Russians invade, Germany stands with the western powers deploring Soviet aggression. Enraged at being duped into a war by Germany, Stalin decides that after Poland is finished, the time is right to establish a soviet republic in Germany and declares war on them as well. The German army marches into Poland supposedly to 'save' them, and beats the Russians out fairly quickly. Germany grabs the Baltics and Finland jumps into the fray; I imagine that since Britain and France were serious about defending Poland (although ironically, they sailed Poland up the creek after WWII), they would declare war on the Soviet Union. Stalin might retaliate by demanding socialist/communist strikes and civil disobedience in France and Britain.
The end result might end up being that Germany gets most of her eastern empire - with most if not all of the 1914 Polish border being restored - while not souring relations with Britain (who cares about France?). Perhaps America would still provide lend-lease to the western alliance against the Commies? No doubt Japan would jump into the war, too.
Having had enough of Polish lies and confronted with the facts presented by his 'friend' Hitler, Stalin agrees to attack Poland at a set date, September 15, 1939. After the Russians invade, Germany stands with the western powers deploring Soviet aggression. Enraged at being duped into a war by Germany, Stalin decides that after Poland is finished, the time is right to establish a soviet republic in Germany and declares war on them as well. The German army marches into Poland supposedly to 'save' them, and beats the Russians out fairly quickly. Germany grabs the Baltics and Finland jumps into the fray; I imagine that since Britain and France were serious about defending Poland (although ironically, they sailed Poland up the creek after WWII), they would declare war on the Soviet Union. Stalin might retaliate by demanding socialist/communist strikes and civil disobedience in France and Britain.
The end result might end up being that Germany gets most of her eastern empire - with most if not all of the 1914 Polish border being restored - while not souring relations with Britain (who cares about France?). Perhaps America would still provide lend-lease to the western alliance against the Commies? No doubt Japan would jump into the war, too.
Completely reverse the roles of Hitler and Stalin and I could see a British-American-Nazi alliance.
Grettir Asmundarsen
Banned
Leo Caesius said:
I'm referring to the Bavarian Peoples' Republic, did I get the year wrong, or are you saying the election was a fraud?
Leo Caesius
Banned
Kurt Eisner organized the revolution that deposed Louis III in 1918, and declared staunchly conservative, Catholic Bavaria a "Socialist Republic." There were no elections until the following February, and he and his party were soundly defeated. In fact, he was assassinated as he went to deliver his resignation to the Bavarian parliament.Grettir Asmundarsen said:
Two months later, a "Soviet Republic" was proclaimed in Munich (the Münchner Räterepublik) by a group of artists, playwrights, anarchists, and a few independent socialists. That lasted slightly longer than three weeks. As far as I know, the Münchner Räterepublik held no elections and was pretty much restricted to the city of Munich. Sometimes people refer to the Münchner Räterepublik as the Bavarian Peoples' Republic, but it's a bit of a misnomer, and certainly Bavaria as a whole never elected any communist government.
I think that WWII had a lot less to do with ideology as is commonly accepted. Churchill, in the Spanish Civil War, backed the nationalists -fascists who had a lot in common with Hitler and Mussolinni- because he was far more afraid of a communist spanish state. He, and FDR too, viewed Hitler as more dangerous, but communist and not fascism was the natural enemy of capitalism. After all, the nazis never put in doubt the private propiety principle, which is the basis of capitalism and the first thing the communists go against. Churchill was afraid of a powerfull Germany, and IMHO he would have acted the same if Hitler was only an autoritarian dictator whithout the nazi parafernalia. Change those two, Churchill and FDR, and you can very well have a non-bellilgerant wester allies watching how nazis and soviets kill each other, and even the big american firms selling Hitler all the stuff he needs.
Well, of course what about a proto-fascist USA along the lines of Amerika as described in K IS FOR KILLING who'd sympathise far more with Hitler ? Maybe if there's an equation of greater Jewish involvement in the Communist movement post-WWI, plus greater Jewish and black leftist radicalism during the Red Summer resulting in larger nos. of whites being killed and perhaps a revolution along the lines of the Congaree Republic in HT's books, and more white Americans might sympathise with Hitler by 1939 ?
More Jewish involvement in the Communist movement
Proportionally I believe Jews were heavily involved in the various communist movements. Which is understandable, since communism promised to treat everyone equally. Of course, communist Russia never delivered on that promise.
Proportionally I believe Jews were heavily involved in the various communist movements. Which is understandable, since communism promised to treat everyone equally. Of course, communist Russia never delivered on that promise.
Leo Caesius
Banned
We don't even need to have more Jews involved in the Communist International. We could just have a few people overemphasizing the involvement of international Jewry in it. That would work. 
Easy. Trotsky wins the power struggle for succession; successfully invades Germany through Poland, following his plan to use the Russian people as cannon-fodder, and liberates Bavaria (which had elected a communist gov't and seceded in 1919). Trotsky goes on to conquer Finland, raising alarm bells in London and Washington.
Whatever the Russians could not do with 150 divisions was not going to happen with 50.
Besides, there are some Poles in the way...
(And they do have, as an observer, the truly incredible Major General Adrian Carton de Wiart)
Whatever the Russians could not do with 150 divisions was not going to happen with 50.
Besides, there are some Poles in the way...
(And they do have, as an observer, the truly incredible Major General Adrian Carton de Wiart)