Despite the religious "unity" between the likeliest colonial powers at this time, there's still going to political and regional rivalries to contend with. The Spanish and Portuguese of our timeline were as zealously devoted to promoting Catholicism as the unified Spanish are here, so it could be worth noting that if the Japanese start receiving French, English, Dutch, and German merchants all confessing the same faith but not trying so hard to evangelize like the Spanish, they could be more receptive to the more secular nature of the later merchants.
Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)
- Thread starter Torbald
- Start date
You're right. The Spanish are definitely going to be ruled out as preferred European trade partner by the more anti-Christian leaning daimyos (which are probably going to constitute a plurality of the daimyos) once another European power shows up in the neighborhood. Additionally, the thalassocratic nature of the Spanish Empire and its involvement in East Asia are going to make Spain and the dominant power in Japan natural rivals later on. However, the militant religious approach and superior power base in East Asia compared to other European powers early on are going to make Spain the best friend of Japan's Christian daimyos.
Another thing to consider is that the Catholicism of TTL's England and Netherlands puts more pressure on the Japanese to tolerate Christianity. While the English and Dutch will probably win out over the Spanish in the Japanese trade due to their less vigorous zeal for proselytization, they're going to have a serious objection to the kind of violent persecution that the Japanese Christian populace was subjected to IOTL. Whereas the Dutch actually encouraged the extirpation of Catholics IOTL (even by violent means), the Catholic English and Dutch would probably avoid trade with the Japanese if they knew Christian converts were given the death penalty. For the Europeans, Japan is simply too distant and doesn't have quite enough valuable trade goods compared to other places in East Asia to justify trading with them when they enforce such objectionable laws.
Honestly the circumstances that precipitated Protestant dominance in England and the Netherlands are so peculiar and unique that them staying Catholic seems to be the most normal thing that could happen from the perspective of the 16th century
I know but still lol. Btw does that mean the Netherlands have remained Habsburg and HRE ITTL?
Also given how we perceive Protestantism nowadays, with its distinct Anglican and Calvinist sects and the way those sects have affected history and English and Dutch culture, it can be hard to imagine England and the Netherlands remaining Catholic, because the way we perceive Catholicism nowadays is also heavily influenced by the dominant Spanish and Italian flavoring, combined with the lack of very much Northern European cultural input post-1530.
English Catholicism and Dutch Catholicism before the Reformation were just as uniquely English and Dutch as Anglicanism or Dutch Calvinism. Their Catholic trajectory ITTL is going to produce a religious culture that is therefore not only very different from the Protestant culture they developed IOTL, but also very different from the Hispano-Italian Catholic culture most people associate with Catholicism.
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They've remained under Habsburg rule so far (we're at 1580 now, more or less), but they're still having some serious issues with political autonomy and religious division
When the Japanese Warring States period comes up I wonder if Spain will be involved in supporting anyone that’s willing to Christianize the land.
If they remain under the Habsburgs and HRE, that means that any Dutch colonization efforts will have the manpower of Germany behind it, that's a great change indeed.
I don't think that would necessarily be how it goes. The Dutch may try to keep their colonies to themselves, in order to both maintain their autonomy and keep their colonies fundamentally Dutch possessions. Calling in Germans undermines that, makes it so they're not necessarily possessions of the Netherlands but possession of the Habsburgs. I wouldn't be suprised if that's what kicks off some sort of conflict between the Dutch and Habsburgs, with the Habsburgs trying to establish more direct control over what is nominally their colonial posessions and the Dutch revolting to keep their slice of the east indian trade under their direct control
I mean the Netherlands are ruled by the Habsburgs and more people to help populate them can't be hard. NGL, but the Dutch are fucked revolting against the HRE compared to Spain.
*looks at the Imjin War and the tercio-style tactics of Sengoku Japan*
Eh. I'd say they're more of a threat than you'd expect.
Iberian South Africa having OTL Brazil like demographics and culture is still fascinating me. Especially given the possibility for it to grow really fricking huge and swallow up as far north as Congo, thereby unironically including the lands of Portugal's Pink Map.
Really interested on the Spanish impact on East Asia in TTL. Even on OTL it was some wild stuff: "A last alliance of Ottoman-backed Moro warriors and Japanese waka pirates trying to fend off the thousand nations of the Spanish Empire"
But also one of the things I am most excited about is how Catholicism will evolve in TTL. As the Spanish, Dutch and English are Catholic it might lead to the Jesuit victory over the dominicans in the Chinese Rites Controversy, which by itself might lead to a Chinese and (maybe) Japanese influenced Catholicism to spread on those respective nations.
Who knows, it might even lead to a Chinese and Japanese Rites in communion with Rome, but different than the common Tridentine Roman Rite, just like how the Eastern Catholics have their own Rites, and England has its own Sarum Rite.
Just imagine some Catholic miko/shrine maidens.
But also one of the things I am most excited about is how Catholicism will evolve in TTL. As the Spanish, Dutch and English are Catholic it might lead to the Jesuit victory over the dominicans in the Chinese Rites Controversy, which by itself might lead to a Chinese and (maybe) Japanese influenced Catholicism to spread on those respective nations.
Who knows, it might even lead to a Chinese and Japanese Rites in communion with Rome, but different than the common Tridentine Roman Rite, just like how the Eastern Catholics have their own Rites, and England has its own Sarum Rite.
Just imagine some Catholic miko/shrine maidens.
If the colonies already have a good Castilian or Portuguese base, perhaps the Spanish will open these colonies to the rest of Europe. For example, I imagine that Portuguese South Africa would have a population of between 250 to 300 million while New Spain between 200 to 250 million and Rio de la Plata between 140 to 180 million in modern times.
If Aragon/Spain keeps southern Italy I can see them opening up to colonists from there
Thank you very much
Sad. I hope that we have a Lusophone Australia with all of this stronger Portuguese Indonesian presence.
Imagine a Southern Hemisphere where Brazil, South Africa and Australia speak Portuguese
Some of you may remember in Portuguese America update (posted more than 5 years ago
), only 5,000 Portuguese settled in Brazil from 1500-1530 (with 7,500 heading eastward instead), and 35,000 migrated to Brazil from 1535-1600. To give you an idea of what this means for TTL's Brazil, let's look at the numbers. Following the OTL growth rate of Brazil's population - from 15,000 to 100,000 in 50 years (1550-1600) - which is about 4% (which obviously accounts for immigration), I'm estimating the Brazilian population ITTL to be about 64,000 by 1600, so considerably lower than IOTL. I have also seen other sources estimating OTL's Brazilian population numbered as low as 45,000 in 1600. Since the OTL Brazilian population tripled from 1600 to 1700 (from 100,000 to 300,000), I can't see TTL's Brazilian population being higher than around 192,000 in 1700. This puts TTL's Brazilian population between Guatemala and Cuba, and is almost negligent compared to the OTL population of New Spain in 1700, numbering 4.5 million.The treaty of Tordesillas/Toredsilhas intended to hand the Americas to the Castilians and Africa+Asia to the Portuguese, so - given that the PoD of Miguel da Paz's survival and the consequent inevitability of an Iberian Union happened before the discovery of Brazil - the presence of Brazil on Portugal's side of the meridian is seen as more of a weird coincidence ITTL, as opposed to being treated as an opportune loophole IOTL. IMO, Iberian colonization of Brazil is basically unavoidable during the 16th century - even against foreign intervention. Due to the obvious pathway along the West African coast leading to the easy route provided by the equatorial currents, the Iberians really can't even avoid discovering Brazil, and pressing claims there comes naturally due to its brazilwood, its ideal sugar plantation biomes, and its geography offering a promontory by which to command the South Atlantic.
However, the Portuguese in this century aren't caught up on notions of romantic nationalism (yet) and preserving the Portuguese language and culture through some settler colonialism in the Americas or Oceania. What they are concerned about (or at least what the Portuguese elite and middle class are concerned about) is keeping their monopoly over the African and Asian trade, so Africa and Asia have a stronger pull on Portuguese immigration ITTL than Brazil does (precisely because of Brazil's lack of development and the ignorance of precious minerals there at the moment, as @A_simple_pilgrim noted). Spanish North Africa is also another obvious destination for Portuguese immigration, due to the (rapidly disappearing) Portuguese monopoly there and (just as importantly) the short and considerably less dangerous travel distance to get there compared to South America or elsewhere. The Castilian colonies - while also legally a Castilian monopoly - are of course part of the same dynastic union as Portugal and consequently are going to receive a lot of Portuguese immigrants, which is something that actually occurred in surprising numbers IOTL when Castile and Portugal were separate (I've read that as many as 100,000 Portuguese found their way to Spanish America during the 16th century IOTL). I'm not saying Portuguese patriotism or distrust of the Castilians aren't both potent factors during this period, but most - or at least a plurality - of the Portuguese in the 16th century simply aren't that concerned about their culture and the other distinct cultures of the Iberian Peninsula peacefully dissolving and coalescing over centuries into some greater High Spanish culture. Or they at least feel like such a development is out of their hands.
Keep in mind that TTL's Iberian Union happened under the leadership of the Portuguese Avis - giving the Spanish monarchy a distictly Portuguese direction early on - and Lisbon is shaping up to be the united Spanish kingdom's most important port. So expect TTL's Spain to be experiencing some significant Lusitanization too.
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In other words, it’s Portuguese South Africa that’s this timeline’s Brazil while this timeline’s Brazil is a kind of backwater colony?Thank you very much
Some of you may remember in Portuguese America update (posted more than 5 years ago
The treaty of Tordesillas/Toredsilhas intended to hand the Americas to the Castilians and Africa+Asia to the Portuguese, so - given that the PoD of Miguel da Paz's survival and the consequent inevitability of an Iberian Union happened before the discovery of Brazil - the presence of Brazil on Portugal's side of the meridian is seen as more of a weird coincidence ITTL, as opposed to being treated as an opportune loophole IOTL. IMO, Iberian colonization of Brazil is basically unavoidable during the 16th century - even against foreign intervention. Due to the obvious pathway along the West African coast leading to the easy route provided by the equatorial currents, the Iberians really can't even avoid discovering Brazil, and pressing claims there comes naturally due to its brazilwood, its ideal sugar plantation biomes, and its geography offering a promontory by which to command the South Atlantic.
However, the Portuguese in this century aren't caught up on notions of romantic nationalism (yet) and preserving the Portuguese language and culture through some settler colonialism in the Americas or Oceania. What they are concerned about (or at least what the Portuguese elite and middle class are concerned about) is keeping their monopoly over the African and Asian trade, so Africa and Asia have a stronger pull on Portuguese immigration ITTL than Brazil does (precisely because of Brazil's lack of development and the ignorance of precious minerals there at the moment, as @A_simple_pilgrim noted). Spanish North Africa is also another obvious destination for Portuguese immigration, due to the (rapidly disappearing) Portuguese monopoly there and (just as importantly) the short and considerably less dangerous travel distance to get there compared to South America or elsewhere. The Castilian colonies - while also legally a Castilian monopoly - are of course part of the same dynastic union as Portugal and consequently are going to receive a lot of Portuguese immigrants, which is something that actually occurred in surprising numbers IOTL when Castile and Portugal were separate (I've read that as many as 100,000 Portuguese found their way to Spanish America during the 16th century IOTL). I'm not saying Portuguese patriotism or distrust of the Castilians aren't both potent factors during this period, but most - or at least a plurality - of the Portuguese in the 16th century simply aren't that concerned about their culture and the other distinct cultures of the Iberian Peninsula peacefully dissolving and coalescing over centuries into some greater High Spanish culture. Or they at least feel like such a development is out of their hands.
The French will be very interested in Equinoctial then.
More like TTL's Brazil is basically similar to OTL Cuba + Santo Domingo in terms of population levels and importance to the metropole, and TTL's South Africa is a weird amalgam of OTL Angola/Mozambique and the OTL Dutch Cape Colony.
Paladín Wulfen
Kicked
Ah mmm that already it's ending. That started in 1450s and ended in 1610s.
*looking the massification of firearms inside the Japanese armies and the rotatory volley made by Nobunaga*
