Ultimate Challenge: Unternehmen Seelöwe

In the best case, can the KM after minimal Norwegian loses and working in collaboration with say 400 well trained anti-shipping aircraft, defeat or at least partially hold off the RN forces that are committed to the English Channel? ?
In a word.
No.
In October 1940 during the Battle Of Britain an old RN battleship ( HMS Revenge) with a destroyer escort sailed up the English Channel and bombarded the German held port of Cherbourg, and then sailed away without it and its escort suffering the slightest damage from the Luftwaffe or anything else.... how did it manage this ?

It did it at night. ;)

The RN could base its ships well out of the effective range of the Luftwaffe, and still reach the invasion area during the hours of darkness...rendering the Luftwaffe virtually impotent.
 
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The aircraft are not such a problem. Heinkel's factory, for example, was not running 24 hours a day and He-111 production doubled in 1942 with foreign workers.

However, you may have found a serious weakness in my ideas with the torpedoes :(:(. I don't have a good sense of how long it would take to establish production of a foreign torpedo. I had believed that the Germans were capable of producing similar weapons rapidly when under pressure although they also tended not to work initially. Thus the Biber midget submarine was ordered on 29th May 1944 and 22 boats were launched on 30th August for their first operation of which only 14 left the harbour and only two reached the area of operation according to Wikipedia. However, the Biber would have been built using parts that were already in production. The problem with a torpedo is its motor which has to fit into a small cylinder. If we look at the production of foreign aero-engines, the shortest time between agreement and the delivery of the first engine may have been the 11 months seen for the Packard Merlin. The Germans only had one 45 cm motor in production in 1939 which was for their F5 aerial torpedo and which had low power. Their choices were to both expand production of that motor and improve it, to buy Italian motors if they were available or to design a 21” (53 cm) aerial torpedo using a version of the G7a motor. In 1941, they decided to buy Italian torpedoes while redesigning their own to produce the F5b and it probably took them over a year from starting the redesign to using the F5b in combat. Sufficient funds might perhaps have bought 500 Italian motors because the Italians also used 45 cm torpedoes for MTBs. If one of these ideas don't work my timeline has to move to the ASB zone :(:(.

Torpedoes are very complicate beasties indeed. They are almost a small submarine in miniature, and they take a long time, and lots of testing, to get right - remember, in 1939 testing means a live fire, getting the results analysed (by hand!), then some fixes, then another live fire...it isnt like today when you can speed it up so much with computers. True, you can give it a high priority, but when it comes down to it you're limited by the size of your torpedo department and their competance, which given Germanies record wasn't stellar (well, unless you compare it to the US! :) :)
Look at how long it took the KM to fix 2 problems in an existing torpedo - the exploder and the depth keeping - they weren't exactly the best at rapid fixes, let along a whole new torpedo.

Buying foreign has its own problems. First the NIH syndrome that affects every military department, secondly all the legal and trade issues regarding getting them, and third, how many do the Italians have in SURPLUS? There isnt any time to build a new production line, and they are going to want most of theor output for their own torpedoes. Like many other weapons, prior to WW2 the output probably wasnt huge.
 
“Damn the Torpedoes!” - Farragut, Mobile Bay, 1864

I am inclined to make the assumption that the German's could have made a version of the torpedo motor of the F5 work. The motor in production in 1939 was good enough to drive the F5 at 33 knots which is slow but similar to the American air dropped torpedo. They improved it or built a new one giving 40 knots in the F5b which was put into production in 1941 and used in 1942. Unfortunately (for my plans) the German closed cycle torpedo motors, such as the Junkers KM8, were also designed for 21” torpedoes. As they ran on aviation fuel and oxygen, they would have been rather unwelcome in submarines but could have produced 48 knot air dropped torpedoes with fewer safety hazards (I seem to remember dimly, perhaps from Eberhard Rossler's “The U-boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines” which I borrowed long ago, that this design started long before WW2 but had to be restarted as the designer up to 1933 was Jewish).
Torpedoes are very complicate beasties indeed. They are almost a small submarine in miniature, and they take a long time, and lots of testing, to get right - remember, in 1939 testing means a live fire, getting the results analysed (by hand!), then some fixes, then another live fire...it isnt like today when you can speed it up so much with computers.
I don't think that it is quite as bad as that once you have a working torpedo that you want to make more reliable. Every time you drop it, things break. When you examine it, you can find most of the the things that broke and can redesign each of them before the next drop (this is much easier than for an aero-engine where the engine is wrecked by the main bearings failing after a few hours and you never see the valve mechanism failing until you have improved the main bearings). Unfortunately, I noticed that the USN and the IJN took different roads to making their torpedoes survive drops at higher speeds. Amongst other things, the USN added a wooden box at the back and I initially assumed that this was similar to the wooden fins added by the IJN for the Pearl Harbor attack. However, while both will have slowed the torpedo, the USN was aiming to enter the water at 26[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º[/FONT] – 30[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]º [/FONT]and avoid “belly flops” while the IJN fins were designed to induce “belly flops” to prevent the torpedo going deep. Possibly because they wanted to retain their shallow water attack capability, the IJN simply added a lot more steel to their torpedoes to make them stronger. The bad news for my Luftwaffe team of torpedo designers is that quite large regions of the English Channel (and the Baltic for testing) is of comparable depth to the 150 feet which was sometimes reached by USN torpedoes when successfully dropped from 5,000 feet. Thus I doubt if the Luftwaffe can fully exploit drops from 1,500 metres even if they can developed a torpedo to run reliably from such a dropping height. Fortunately, they don't need the sort of dropping speeds achieved by late war USN or IJN torpedoes because the He-111, at least, can't fly that fast (350 - 410 knots).

True, you can give it a high priority, but when it comes down to it you're limited by the size of your torpedo department and their competance, which given Germanies record wasn't stellar (well, unless you compare it to the US! :) :)
Look at how long it took the KM to fix 2 problems in an existing torpedo - the exploder and the depth keeping - they weren't exactly the best at rapid fixes, let along a whole new torpedo.
The Germans actually solved the exploder problem very fast indeed once they had captured HMS Seal by simply copying the British design and had it in service within a few months. I admit that they failed dismally to design a good contact exploder of their own. However, I am assuming here that the Luftwaffe simply copies the Italian design which was apparently excellent. The major depth keeping problem in German submarine launched torpedoes was that the pressure was measured relative to a “sealed” volume of air at atmospheric pressure. However, the seal was not perfect and the pressure in a submarine was generally higher than atmospheric because of the release of compressed air when submerged, so the torpedoes ran too deep (the USN torpedoes also ran deep because the designers calibrated the pressure in a stationary torpedo and forgot that pressure changes when the torpedo is running by Bernoulli's principle). The German fault in an air dropped torpedo should lead to shallow running torpedoes but the fault might easily disappear during the strengthening process.

Obviously, I need Luftwaffe torpedoes because I am not convinced that a reasonable number of dive bomber bombs would stop Rodney and Nelson while RN ships tended to be vulnerable to relatively few torpedo hits.

....
The RN could base its ships well out of the effective range of the Luftwaffe, and still reach the invasion area during the hours of darkness...rendering the Luftwaffe virtually impotent.
I am assuming that the Luftwaffe would have realized in the studies started in September 1939 that it must drive the RN out of both Plymouth and Harwich and, as noted earlier, would have supplied the Bf-109 force with drop tanks to enable them to escort such raids. Also in this scenario the KM surface fleet is not impotent. All their big ships had radar which was not true of most British battleships and cruisers. Even a British battleship is going to suffer if even Lutzow or Admiral Scheer hits it at 10,000 metres at night.
 
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I am assuming that the Luftwaffe would have realized in the studies started in September 1939 that it must drive the RN out of both Plymouth and Harwich and, as noted earlier, would have supplied the Bf-109 force with drop tanks to enable them to escort such raids.
I hope they are large drop tanks because in an experiment during 1940 the RN sailed a destroyer from Scarpa Flow all the way to Plymouth within 24 hours



Also in this scenario the KM surface fleet is not impotent. All their big ships had radar which was not true of most British battleships and cruisers. Even a British battleship is going to suffer if even Lutzow or Admiral Scheer hits it at 10,000 metres at night.
The FMG 39(Og) radar fitted on these ships could locate ships at long range but they were too inaccurate to be used for gun laying
 
I am assuming that the Luftwaffe would have realized in the studies started in September 1939 that it must drive the RN out of both Plymouth and Harwich and, as noted earlier, would have supplied the Bf-109 force with drop tanks to enable them to escort such raids. Also in this scenario the KM surface fleet is not impotent. All their big ships had radar which was not true of most British battleships and cruisers. Even a British battleship is going to suffer if even Lutzow or Admiral Scheer hits it at 10,000 metres at night.


Ohboy.
(1) Lutzow or Scheer will annoy a RN BB, nothing more. They are protected against 11" shells.
(2) You do not try for a night action against the RN....anymore than you would against the IJN...
(3) Doesnt matter if the raids are escorted, it was shown in the BoB that escorted stukas get shot down. Its just a little more difficult.
 
The first meeting of the Sealion Planning Group on 12th September 1939 might well have been the last. Vice-Admiral Marschall insisted that invading Britain after a successful French campaign was simply impossible because the British Navy would sink anything that tried cross the Channel. Geisler, for the Luftwaffe, admitted that he could not promise to sink more than a small fraction of the British Fleet. Marschall pointed out that they woudn't sink anything in the dark. Jodl attempted to intervene by suggesting that coastal artillery could protect a crossing of the Straits of Dover. Marschall turned to his second, Captain Hellmuth Heye, and asked him to explain “the problems”. Heye explained that it was unlikely that coastal artillery would hit enemy ships sailing through the Straits in daylight. He noted that the dispersion of a salvo from naval guns was generally at least 1.5 % of the range and thus that at the 40 km range required, shells would land somewhere in a circle with a diameter of nearly a kilometer. Worse they would take around 2 minutes to get there and it would be very hard to predict where the enemy ship would be as a cruiser or destroyer would sail around 2 kilometers while the shells were in flight. The only hope, in his view, was to lay minefields to protect the invasion fleet and even that would be very difficult.

“Difficult indeed”, noted Marschall. “Let's work out how many mines you will need,” he continued.

“We have to lay two barrages, one to block the Straits of Dover, which is around 40 km, and one from Cherbourg to Weymouth, which is around 150 km. If we had one mine every 50 metres, we would need 4,000 mines but of course we need many more than that or the first few enemy ships will clear a gap for the rest. In fact, even if we could lay the mines, which would be difficult, the enemy will be able to break through by streaming paravanes or simply sending minesweepers ahead of their force.”

“If we use the new magnetic mines, the British will not be able to gain anything by using paravanes and may not be able to sweep the mines. There is also the advantage that magnetic mines can stop enemy submarines,” argued Heye.

“Perhaps, they cannot sweep them now but they will surely have learnt how to sweep them by next summer,” replied Marschall.

“Only if we allow them to practise,” returned Heye. “We need to build up a very large stack of magnetic and, if they are ready, the acoustic mines, and start laying these mines in the week before the invasion. We must ensure that the British do not believe that we have magnetic mines until it is too late for them to develop ways of sweeping them.”

“Even ignoring the planned invasion, I agree that there are good reasons for waiting until we have and can lay very large numbers of magnetic mines before we use them. I am happy to recommend that delaying their use and also that their production is added to our list of priorities.”

“OK! I will report that to the Führer,” agreed Jodl.

“However, there are still several issues. Firstly, if we are to make the 40,000 mines that we seem to need, we need as much explosive as the Luftwaffe can drop in more than a month at a time when explosives are in very short supply. Secondly, how are we going to lay them? S-boats can each lay 6 mines per trip, so if we can build 100 S-boats, they will still only be able to lay 600 mines near Weymouth in a single night. A destroyers can lay 60 mines, so our destroyer force may be able over a thousand mines per night but like the S-boats, they are needed for other jobs. The destroyers cannot carry both mines and depth charges for example. Thus we will depend on converted merchant ships to lay most of our mines and we will need over a hundred to be converted into minelayers. Even then we will not be able to lay 40,000 mines and the minelayers will be very vulnerable.”

“We need to use the Luftwaffe to drive the British warships out of the area, we then use the KM to take control of the area for 24 hours, this allows the minelayers to establish barrages and finally the mines, the LW and the KM have to defeat the British fleet. If we cannot lay enough mines to make both barrages completely effective, we also have to devise a strategy to bring the main British force down their East Coast onto the shorter Dover barrage and make that barrage strong enough to stop them,” concluded Heye.

OTL the RN had received reports of German magnetic torpedo fuses and the Oslo Letter mentioned magnetic mines but few counter measures were started before an air dropped mine was examined in November.
 
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Let's agree that the July 1940 landing would have been a very near run thing, but probably successful for the Germans. Let's also agree that the level of superhuman foresight needed for Hitler to give the go ahead for preparations to begin for a July operation is ASB (The start of Case Yellow?!).

snip

As this almost agrees with my views, I feel that I have made some progress (so perhaps I should fall in with the general opinion that I have posted enough). The quote goes further than my real view as I doubt if success is likely even starting from September 1939. My reason for taking on the challenge is that I really do believe that butterfly wings cause typhoons. Of course, there is climate as well as weather. Some things must be impossible because of the historical equivalent of the energy budget. However, it is hard to know what these are. For example, I found in the pre-archive of this board for 1938 a future history AH challenge to make Brussels the capital of an empire including most of Europe in less than a hundred years.

I started from a POD derived by twisting the Tooze/Hillgruber idea that America was central to Hitler's world view in 1940 and assuming that Hitler believed in 1939 that the men who had yielded to him at Munich were now fighting him only because they were American puppets. That was slightly dishonest of me because I doubt the thesis for 1940 and tend to believe that the failure to raise arms production was due to stupidity rather than planning for a 1943-4 war. My other dubious trick was to select the team making the German plans for Sealion. Normally if you are allocated six staff, you are lucky if two or three are highly competent. You are more likely to receive the six people who everyone else wants removed from their own group. However, Marschall and Heye were significantly more competent than, for example, Kummetz and Strange. Having Goering and Beppo Schmidt involved for the Luftwaffe might also have reduced the chances of success. In the spirit of continuing the random allocation of personnel, I continue below:

January 1940

“Jodl is now asking us to allocate a complete army corps to his invasion folly and sadly he has Hitler's support,” complain von Brauchitsch.

“Perhaps we can kill two birds with one stone,” replied Halder.

“How?”

“It would be nice to get von Rundstedt's arrogant Chief of Staff out of our hair. If we sent him to Jodl with the new 38th Infantry Corps, we can present it as a promotion and as OKH helping Hitler's pet project.”

“Good! I like it. Draw up the orders!”
 
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