Ultimate Challenge: Unternehmen Seelöwe

[ComradeTovarich]

And here is the size of the Royal Navy Home Fleet which was attained by the Abwehr. Whether it is accurate I do not know, but the size shows how impossible this task is. This does not include their large fleets in Rosyth and Orkney which they would undoubtedly use in the event of an attempted invasion.

I humbly suggest abandoning this madness and pulling out all stops for negotiatging.

Naval Commands, and Sub Commands/ship locations within them, are listed approximately north to south/east to west

Some warships are listed with their own unit and again when detached to another​

PORTSMOUTH COMMAND​

Adm Sir William James KCB​

Portsmouth Command, Portsmouth Sub Command​

Base ship, Portsmouth - VICTORY

Battleship – QUEEN ELIZABETH (Cdr R Gotto DSO) at Portsmouth repairing to comp 31 Jan 41

Light cruisers - FIJI (Capt W G Benn) dep the Clyde 4 Jun to work up at Bermuda, Dutch JACOB VAN HEEMSKERCK at Portsmouth, towed from Amsterdam in May in incomplete state, comp construction 5 Oct 40.

Monitors - EREBUS (Capt R Shelley) at Southampton to rearm, comp 12 Jul, MARSHAL SOULT (Cdr G C L Dalley) at Portsmouth for turret refit through to end of year

Seaplane carrier - PEGASUS (Capt P G Wodehouse DSO Rtd) at Portsmouth refitting to comp 22 Jun

20th Destroyer Flotilla (Capt J G Bickford DSC)
39th Division - ESK (Lt Cdr R J H Couch) at Portsmouth repairing to comp 13 Jun, EXPRESS (Bickford) arr Portsmouth 4 Jun repairing to comp 13 Jun, IVANHOE (Cdr P H Hadow) at Chatham repairing to comp 24 Aug
40th Division - ICARUS (Cdr C D Maud DSC) at Portsmouth repairing to comp 16 Jun, IMPULSIVE (Lt Cdr W S Thomas) at London repairing to comp 4 Jul, INTREPID (Cdr R C Gordon) at Middlesbrough repairing to comp 12 Jun

22nd Destroyer Flotilla (administered by Captain D, Portsmouth) - ACHERON (Lt Cdr R W F Northcott) dep Scapa Flow 31 May, SABRE (Cdr B Dean DSO Rtd) at Sheerness repairing to comp 17 Jun, SALADIN (Lt Cdr L J Dover) dep Portsmouth 9 Jun SARDONYX (Lt Cdr R B S Tennant) at London refitting to comp 15 Jul, SCIMITAR (Lt R D Franks) at London repairing to comp 21 Jun, SHIKARI (Cdr H N A Richardson) at Plymouth repairing to comp 18 Jun, SKATE (Lt Cdr R A Fell, Lt F W Hayden from 14 Jun, Lt F P Baker from 3 Jul) cnverting to anti-submarine ship since 15 Apr, to comp 13 Jul

Destroyers under long repair - VICEROY (Lt L A Lall Rtd, Eng Off) at Portsmouth, converting to escort destroyer to comp 10 Jan 41 (Lt Cdr D P Trentham), WOLSEY (Lt Cdr C H Campbell DSC) at Portsmouth refitting to comp 21 Jun, escort destroyer BERKELEY (Lt Cdr H G Walters) arr Milford Haven 9 Jun

Anti-submarine vessels - sloops FOXGLOVE (Lt Cdr T I S Bell) arr Portsmouth 2 Jun, ROSEMARY (Lt Cdr R C D Grimes) arr Portsmouth 23 May for repairs

Minelayers (Rear Adm W F Wake-Walker hoisted his Flag on 17 Jun in TRELAWNEY in Kyle of Loch Alsh, codenamed Port ZA) - ADVENTURE (Cdr G K Whitmey-Smith) at Plymouth repairing to comp 18 Sep, AGAMEMNON (Capt N B C Brock Rtd) at Albert Docks fitting out, MENESTHEUS (Capt W H D Friedberger) at Govan fitting out, PORT NAPIER (Capt J N Tait CBE, DSC Rtd) at Tyne fitting out, PORT QUEBEC (Capt E C Watson Rtd) at Haveston fitting out, SOUTHERN PRINCE (Cdr G C Colville) at Clydebank fitting out, TEVIOTBANK (Cdr R D King-Harman Rtd) dep Immingham 9 Jun

Motor Torpedo Boat Base - HORNET (Capt F H P Maurice Rtd)

Motor Torpedo Boats - MTB.2 at Stanwich for repairs and conversion to Motor Attendant Craft 2, MTB.19 at Portsmouth for repairs and conversion to Motor Attendant Craft 6

3rd Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla (Training Flotilla) - MTB.100 (Lt S L B Maybury) arr 6 Jun, MTB.102 (Lt C W S Dreyer) arr 5 Jun, both arr Portsmouth

Motor Attendant Craft - MAC.1 (ex-MTB.1) at Portsmouth converting, MAC.5 (ex-MTB.5) at Harwich, MAC.7 (ex-MTB.40) at Yarmouth

27th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine trawlers CAPE PALLISER (Sk S Phimister RNR), KINGSTON AGATE (Sk J Porter RNR), KINGSTON AMBER (Sk J Flett RNR), KINGSTON CAIRNGORM (Sk G Murray RNR, reassigned to minesweeping trawler WISTARIA on 3 Jun) aground and paid off, KINGSTON CEYLONITE (ChSk J S GarnhamRNR), KINGSTON CHRYSOBERYL (Sk R C Green RNR) under repair, all but one at Portsmouth

81st Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine yachts CAMPEADOR V (Cdr C H Davey OBE Rtd), RION (Cdr H F Besant OBE Rtd), WILNA (Cdr A D Smyth Rtd), all at Portsmouth

21st Anti-Submarine Striking Force - anti-submarine trawlers DANEMAN (Sk A Flett RNR), WELLARD (Lt A D White RNR), both at Hull

Anti-submarine patrol yacht (for attendance on submarines) - anti-submarine yacht WARRIOR II (Capt A E Johnson Rtd) at Portsmouth

Anti-submarine experimental ship - patrol sloop KINGFISHER (Lt Cdr G A M V Harrison) arr Dover 3 Jun, to Lowestoft for repairs comp 7 Jul

Minesweeping trawlers - ASAMA (Ty Sk R C Allen RNR), CHERWELL (no CO) for disposal, COURTIER (ChSk F E Barker RDRNR), DAMITO (Lt Cdr J C Benson RNVR), all at Portsmouth, EMPYREAN (Sk R Wilson RNR) dep Portsmouth 5 Jun for Gibraltar, ERIMO (Sk T Catchpole RNR) at Portsmouth, IJIUN (Sk J J McKenzie RNR) at Cowes, LEPHRETO (TySk R A Mathews RNR) at Portsmouth, MILFORD HAVEN DUCHESS (Sk D Main RNR) at Gosport, RESPARKO (TySk J Fountain RNR) at Cherbourg, RETURNO (Sk G S Burr RNR) dep Portsmouth 5 Jun for Gibraltar, ROYALO (TySk W D Warford RNR) at Cherbourg, ST MELANTE (TySk A Osborne RNR) at Portsmouth, STRATHCOE (no CO) at Portsmouth for disposal

VERNON experimental minesweeping trawlers - CAPESPARTEL (Ch Sk H C Gue DSC RNR), MAGNOLIA (Lt W H Calverley), SAWFLY (Ch Sk W T Harwood RNR), all at Portsmouth

Experimental minesweeping drifters - BENANDLUCY (S/Lt F G M Iles RNVR), DORIENTA (Sk W F Reynolds RNR), GOLDEN HARVEST (Sk D M Mein RNR), GOLDEN NEWS (Sk A C Borrett RNR), all at Portsmouth

Minesweeping drifters - ARCADY (Ty Sk E W B Norton RNR) under repair, CHARDE (Sk M Slater RNR), CONSOLATION (TySk J Tipple RNR) at Cowes, GILT EDGE (TySk R S Mills RNR), JEANNIE LEASK (TySk J C Boyd RNR), REFRACTION (Sk J W Howard RNR), ROSEBUD (Ty Sk J R Buchan RNR) under repair, SOLSTICE (Ch Sk J W Christian RNR), all but one at Portsmouth

Special service vessels - EMERALD WINGS, HOLLAND, MOYLE (no COs listed), all at Portsmouth

Harbour defence patrol craft - three at Portsmouth

Inner Patrol craft – 12 at Portsmouth

Examination Service - ten patrol craft at Portsmouth

Boom defence vessels - three at Portsmouth

Rescue tugs - RESOLVE (Ty Sk C R Baker RNR), ST OLAVES (Ty Sk H L Forster RNR), all at Portsmouth, STALWART (Ty Lt F J Horwood RNR)

Vessel for salvage duties - minesweeper TEDWORTH (Lt Cdr W J Stride MBE Rtd) at Androssan.

Drifter - EBBTIDE (no CO listed) at Portsmouth for harbour duties only.

Schools and Training Establishments​

NavigationalSchool - DRYAD (Capt T C Armstrong Rtd), minesweepers ALRESFORD (Lt Cdr D N Venables Rtd) repairing, SALTBURN (Lt Cdr F Y Bethell), both at Portsmouth.

GunnerySchool - EXCELLENT (Capt J P Brind), tug ST FAGAN (Lt Cdr G H Warren MBE) at Portland

Torpedo School and Experimental Establishment - VERNON (Rear Adm B Egerton Rtd), miscellaneous ship BLOODHOUND (built similar to an MTB as tender to VERNON) arr Portland 2 Jun, armed boarding vessel LAIRDS ISLE (Cdr J Lunnon RNR), tug REVUE (Lt H Pearson Rtd), motor boat, last three at Portsmouth

Submarine Training Establishment (FortBlockhouse) - DOLPHIN

5th Submarine Flotilla - miscellaneous ship/tender DWARF (Cdr E S Felton) at Portsmouth, submarine depot ship ALECTO (Lt Cdr H C Cumberbatch) at Portland, submarines CACHALOT (Lt Cdr J D Luce) at Plymouth repairing to comp 6 Jul, H.32 (Lt M J P Walters, Lt J L Livesay from 11 Jun) at Sheerness refitting to comp 14 Jun, H.33 (Lt E B Talbot, Lt E P Tomkinson from 11 Jul) at Campbeltown for anti-submarine training, H.43 (Lt G R Colvin) at Plymouth for anti-submarine training, L.27 (Lt J D Martin, Lt R E Campbell from 11 Jun) at Portsmouth refitting to comp 29 Jun, OBERON (Lt C B Crouch) at Portsmouth for training, OTWAY (Cdr H R Conway) at Portsmouth for training, TIGRIS (Lt Cdr H F Bone) at Portsmouth, Dutch O.9 (Lt Cdr H A W Goossens), O.10 (Lt Cdr G Quint), both at Portland for anti-submarine training

Yacht - VICTORIA AND ALBERT (Lt W G C Crouch MVO, DSC Rtd) at Portsmouth

Newhaven​

Base ship - FORWARD (Capt A A Lovett-Cameron Rtd)

Minesweeping drifter - OCEAN SUNLIGHT (Ty Sk R J Crane RNR) at Dover

Examination Service - two trawlers at Newhaven

Portsmouth Command, Portland Sub Command​

Portland​

Vice Adm Hon E R Drummond CB, MVO Rtd​

Base ship - BOSCAWEN

40th Anti-Submarine Group (attached to OSPREY for instructional purposes) - anti-submarine trawlers HERTFORDSHIRE (Cdr J A Shater Rtd) at Portland, OLVINA (Lt Cdr C G Cuthbertson RNR), TOPAZE (SO, Lt Cdr J N Hambly MBE), both at Dover

89th Anti-Submarine Group (attached to OSPREY for instructional purposes) - anti-submarine yachts CONQUEROR (SO, Capt E T R Chambers AFC Rtd), ST MODWEN (Cdr W A Ford Rtd), SHEMARA (Cdr H Buckle Rtd), VALENA (Capt W H Poole RD RNR), all at Portland

Trawler - SPINDRIFT (Lt G J Parry RNR) at Portland

2nd Motor Anti-Submarine Boat Flotilla - trawler KALAN (Ty Lt J L Barton RNVR), att OSPREY for instructional purposes, fitting out at Irvine, motor anti-submarine boats MA/SB.6 (SO, Lt W G Everett, Lt H R Kidston from 14 Jun) at Harwich, MA/SB.7 (Pbty Ty S/Lt W H L Richmond RNVR) arr Dover 5 Jun, MA/SB.8 (Ty S/Lt R S Anker-Simmonds RNVR) at Harwich, MA/SB.9 (Pbty Ty S/Lt J Cutting RNVR) at Harwich, MA/SB.10 (Ty S/Lt P A Williams RNVR) arr Southampton 6 Jun

Motor launches – ML.101 at Portsmouth, ML.102 at St Helens, IOW

Minesweeping Group 49 - minesweeping trawlers COMPUTATOR (Ch Sk C W H Shearing RNR), LADY ENID (ChSk R Masson RNR), NEIL SMITH (TySk B D Barnet RNR), T R FERRENS (Lt L A Hill DSC RNR), all at Portland

Minesweeping drifters - KINDRED STAR (Ty Sk T W Sheridan RNR), THRIFTY (Ty Sk G Corney RNR), both at Portland

Examination Service - three paddle steamers at Portland, one at Invergordon

Contraband Control Service - motor fishing vessels ETHFA, PTARMIGAN (no COs listed), b oth at Portland, harbour defence patrol craft, two patrol craft at Portland, one at Dover

Boom defence vessel - one at Portland

Rescue tug - ST ABBS (Lt T E Brooker Rtd) at sea

WESTERN APPROACHES COMMAND​

Adm Sir M Dunbar-Nasmith VC, Commander-in-Chief​

Western Approaches Command, Devonport Sub Command​

Base ships - DRAKE (Adm Sir M Dunbar-Nasmith VC) at Plymouth, EAGLET (Vice Adm L G E Crabbe CB, CIE, DSO Rtd) at Liverpool, SPARTIATE (Vice Adm J A G Troup CB Rtd) at Glasgow

Aircraft carrier - ILLUSTRIOUS (Capt D W Boyd DSC) at Plymouth, due to sail for Dakar for trials, but changed to Bermuda due to French Armistice

Cruisers - heavy cruiser EXETER (Cdr A H C Coe, Eng Off) at Plymouth repairing to comp 10 Mar 41 (Capt W N T Beckett MVO, DSC from 12 Dec), cruiser FROBISHER (Lt Cdr C H Campbell) at Plymouth rearming to comp 13 Feb 42 (Capt J F W Mudford from 13 Jan 42)

Light cruisers - BONAVENTURE (Capt H J Egerton) at Clyde undergoing trials to comp at the end of Jun, dep 4 Jul for Halifax and Bermuda for working up,, ENTERPRISE (Capt J C Annesley DSO) at Plymouth refitting to comp 22 Jun

Target ship - CENTURION (Lt Cdr W F Nicholas Rtd, Capt J B Haly Rtd from 26 Jul) at Plymouth refitting

9th Destroyer Flotilla (Capt E B K Stevens DSC) - HARVESTER (Lt Cdr M Thornton) dep Portland 9 Jun, HAVELOCK (Stevens) dep Vestfjord covering Narvik evacuation, HESPERUS (Lt Cdr D G F W MacIntyre) at Dundee repairing to comp at end of Jun, HIGHLANDER (Cdr W A Dallmeyer) dep Scapa Flow 31 May, HURRICANE (Lt Cdr H C Simms) bldg at Vickers Armstrong, Barrow to comp 21 Jun, arr Plymouth 30 Jun to work up

11th Destroyer Flotilla (administered by Rear Adm C H Knox-Little Rtd, Captain D, Liverpool) - MACKAY (Cdr G H Stokes) arr Harwich 5 Jun, VANOC (Lt Cdr J G W Deneys) arr Lerwick 10 Jun, VANQUISHER (Cdr C B Alers-Hankey DSC) at Sheerness repairing to comp 16 Jun, VISCOUNT (Lt Cdr M S Townsend OBE, DSC) arr Greenock 10 Jun, WALKER (Lt Cdr A A Tait) dep Vestfjord covering the Narvik evacuation, WARWICK (Lt Cdr M A G Child) dep Greenock 9 Jun, WHIRLWIND (Lt Cdr J M Rodgers) arr Lerwick 10 Jun, WINCHELSEA (Lt Cdr W A F Hawkins) arr Chatham 8 Jun repairing to comp 13 Jun

17th Destroyer Flotilla (administered by Capt A H Maxwell-Hyslop AM, Captain D, Plymouth), BROKE (Cdr B G Scurfield) dep Plymouth 9 Jun, VANSITTART (Lt Cdr W Evershed) at Tyne repairing to comp 22 Jun, VOLUNTEER (Lt Cdr N Lanyon) arr Lerwick 10 Jun, WANDERER (Cdr J H Ruck-Keene) at Dover, WHITEHALL (Lt Cdr A B Russell) at Plymouth, Dunkirk damage repaired 9 Jun, boiler repairs to comp 26 Aug, WITCH (Lt Cdr J R Barnes) dep Greenock 9 Jun, WITHERINGTON (Lt Cdr J B Palmer) arr Greenock 10 Jun, WOLVERINE (Cdr R H Craske) arr Greenock 10 Jun

Canadian destroyers - FRASER (Cdr W G Creery CBERCN) refitting to comp 11 Jun, RESTIGOUCHE (Cdr H N Lay RCN) dep 9 Jun, ST LAURENT (Lt Cdr H G DeWolf RCN) dep 9 Jun, SKEENA (Lt Cdr J C Hibbard RCN), all dep or at at Plymouth

Destroyer - VANITY (Cdr H J Buchanan RAN from 18 Jun) at Plymouth refitting as escort destroyer to comp 12 Aug

Armed merchant cruisers - CANTON (Capt G D Belben AM, DSC) dep Portland 7 Jun, CORFU (Capt W G Agnew) dep Clyde 1 Jun, MALOJA (Capt V Hammersley-Heenan Rtd) dep Clyde 1 Jun, MONTCLARE (Capt H M Spreckley Rtd) dep Greenock 1 Jun

Western Approaches Escort Force​

1st Sloop Division (administered by Captain D, Plymouth) - sloops ABERDEEN (Cdr H P Currey) dep Plymouth 4 Jun, BIDEFORD (Lt Cdr J H Lewes DSC) at Portsmouth repairing to comp early Feb 41, ENCHANTRESS (Cdr A K Scott-Moncrief) arr Plymouth 7 Jun, FOWEY (Cdr H B Ellison DSO) at Plymouth, SCARBOROUGH (Cdr C T Addis) dep Liverpool 8 Jun with OB.163GF for OG.33F, due back with HGF.34 on 19 Jun, WELLINGTON (Cdr R E Hyde-Smith) arr Portsmouth 10 Jun

2nd Sloop Division (administered by Captain D, Liverpool) - sloops DEPTFORD (Lt Cdr G A Thring) dep 30 May, FOLKESTONE (Lt Cdr C F H Churchill) dep 9 Jun, LEITH (Cdr G R Waymouth) arr 9 Jun, ROCHESTER (Cdr G F Renwick) repairing to comp 27 Jun, SANDWICH (Cdr M J Yeatman) dep 9 Jun, all dept, arr or at Liverpool

Corvettes - ARABIS (Lt Cdr B Blewitt RNR) arr Dover 9 Jun with convoy HG.32, CALENDULA (Lt Cdr A D Bruford RNVR) dep Plymouth 8 Jun, CLARKIA (Lt Cdr F J G Jones RNR) dep Plymouth 7 Jun, GARDENIA (Lt Cdr T A O Ellis RNR) dep Portland 9 Jun, GLADIOLUS (Lt Cdr H M C Sanders RNR) at Plymouth boiler cleaning to comp 14 Jun, HEARTSEASE (Lt Cdr E J R North RNR) at Belfast working up, HIBISCUS (Lt Cdr R Phillips RNR) arr Plymouth 10 Jun, PERIWINKLE (Lt Cdr H Row RNR) dep Plymouth 9 Jun

20th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-tubmarine trawlers LORD HAILSHAM (Sk F J J Cannon RNR) dep 8 Jun, LORD SNOWDEN (Sk G McK Sutherland RNR), LORD STAMP (ChSk J D McKay RNR), LORD STANHOPE (Sk W R A Hicks RNR), LORD STONEHAVEN (Sk J Main RNR), all at Plymouth

__________​

Minesweeping Group 52 - minesweeping trawlers BRECONCASTLE (Ch Sk F Armitage RNR), DORINDA (Sk W F Reynolds RNR) repairing, HATANO (Ch Sk P Cormack RNR), RADNORCASTLE (Ch Sk A H Foster RNR), all at Plymouth

Minesweeping trawlers - BEN URIE (Ty Sk G Abram RNR) at Hebburn fitting out, BILSDEAN (Ch Sk E C Rowe RNR) at Hebburn fitting out, EDEN (no CO) at Plymouth scrapping deferred, LORD INCHCAPE (TySk A H Simpson RNR) at Plymouth, LUDA LORD (TySk F G W Banks RNR) at Plymouth, OCEAN VIEW (TySk G W MilehamRNR) at Plymouth, ROCHEBONNE (Ch Sk W R Settlefield RNR) at Hebburn fitting out

Minesweeping drifter - SALPA (Ty Sk J W Burwood RNR) at Plymouth under repair

Special Service trawlers – minesweeping trawlers COMET (Lt Cdr S R J Woods RNR), MANOR (Ty Sk A Rosling RNVR), both at Plymouth

Armed patrol vessels - two trawlers at Fleetwood

Examination Service - special service vessels SIR WALTER RALEIGH, SIR RICHARD GRENVILLE (no COs listed), both at Plymouth

Harbour defence patrol craft - seven at Plymouth

Boom Defence Vessel - one at Plymouth

Polish base ship, Plymouth - GYDNIA

Coastal minelayer - MELPOMÈNE (Lt Cdr J H Evans Rtd) at Plymouth

Cable ships - KILMUN (Capt H C Pellow Rtd) dep Plymouth 9 Jun, LASSO (Capt H C B Pipon Rtd) arr Greenock 2 Jun

Patrol vessel - patrol sloop PC.74 (Cdr C E H White DSO Rtd) at Androssan

School or Training Establishment​

Torpedo school - DEFIANCE, Devonport (Rear Adm R B T Miles Rtd)

Western Approaches Command, Falmouth Sub Command​

Falmouth​

Vice Adm Sir Henry K Kitson KBE, CB Rtd​

Base ship - FORTE

83rd Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine yachts MAID MARION (Capt J C J Soutter Rtd) at Falmouth, VIVA II (Capt R L Hamer Rtd) at Liverpool

Minesweeping Group 53 - minesweeping trawler GREEN HOWARD (Ty Sk W E Parsons RNR) at Plymouth

Minesweeping trawlers - EARL ESSEX (Ty Sk C G C Coombe RNR), WAR WING (Sk W J Foale RNR), both at Tyne fitting out

Examination Service - yachts ARLETTE II, ALOMA (no COs listed), both at Falmouth

Tender to Examination Service - yacht SILVER CLOUD (no CO listed) at Falmouth

Harbour defence patrol craft - two at Falmouth, one fitting out at Southampton

Contraband Control Service - yachts KILORAN (Cdr H F Nash Rtd) at Falmouth, SAPPHO (Capt R C Primrose VD RNVR Rtd) dep Plymouth 22 May

Rescue tugs - MARAUDER (Ty Lt W J Hammond RNR) at Campbeltown, SALVONIA (Ty Lt G M M Robinson RNR) at Falmouth

Western Approaches Command, Cardiff Sub Command​

Swansea​

Vice Adm W Tomkinson CB, MVO Rtd​

Base ship, Swansea - LUCIFER

17th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine trawlers BEDFORDSHIRE (Sk J W Short RNR), LORD WAKEFIELD (SO, Lt Cdr M B Sherwood Rtd), CAMBRIDGESHIRE (Ty Sk W G Euston RNR), KIRKELLA (Sk G T Lilley DSC RNR), WARWICK DEEPING (Sk J R Bruce RNR), all at Swansea

80th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine yachts ANNA MARIE (Cdr F M Simon Rtd), HINIESTA (Cdr H H Horley Rtd) at Grimsby fitting out, ORACLE (Cdr T C C Bolster Rtd), RHODORA (Capt C T A Bunbury OBE Rtd), all but one at Swansea

Anti-submarine patrol trawlers - anti-submarine trawlers CAULONIA (Ty Sk A J Trolle RNR), HAYBOURNE WYKE (Ty Sk J Stafford RNR), LADY ELEANOR (Ty Sk J A Atkinson RNR), LADY ROSEMARY (Ty Sk R J McCulloch RNR), OGANO (Ty Sk Henry Clarke RNR), all on passage Hull to Swansea

Minesweeping trawlers COMMILES (Ty Sk H F Metson RNR), DARNETT NESS (Ty S/Lt J G Wood DSM Pbty RNVR), both at Swansea

Minesweeping drifters - ALCOR (Ty Sk A Chipperfield RNR), GLEN HEATHER (Ty Sk S J Catchpole RNR), KATHLEEN (Sk J W Chenery RNR), MERBREEZE (Ty Sk W G A Thompson RNR), ONE ACCORD (Ty Sk R W Vann RNR), PARAMOUNT (Sk C E Blowers RNR), all at Swansea

Examination Service - pilot boat ROGER BECK (no CO listed) at Swansea

Harbour defence patrol craft - two at Swansea

Cardiff​

Harbour defence patrol craft - three at Cardiff

Penarth​

Auxiliary Patrol Vessels - six trawlers at Penarth

Barry​

87th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine yachts MIGRANTE (Cdr H Owen DSC Rtd) at Southampton, ZAZA (Cdr W H Austin Rtd) at Swansea

Examination Service - pilot boat LASS O'DOUNE, drifters CHIMAERA, BELLE VUE, all at Barry (no CO’s listed)

Port Talbot​

Auxiliary Patrol Vessels - four trawlers requisitioned at Grimsby, two trawlers at Port Talbot

Western Approaches Command, Milford Sub Command​

Milford Haven​

Rear Adm P E Phillips DSO Rtd​

Base ship - SKIRMISHER

8th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine trawlers ARSENAL (Sk C R Radford RNR), DERBYCOUNTY (Sk R Armstrong RNR), HUDDERSFIELDTOWN (SO, Lt Cdr J G C Gibson Rtd), LEEDS UNITED (Lt Cdr H L Williams RNVR), YORKCITY (Sk W Tucker RNR), all at Milford Haven

Anti-submarine patrol trawlers - anti-submarine trawlers ANDANES (Ty Sk A J Galvin DSC RNR), CAMPINA (TySk F Wellbourn RNR), COMMANDER HORTON (no CO listed), RAETIA (Ty S/Lt J Clark Pbty RNVR), SHELDON (Ty Lt R A Mason RNVR), all at Milford Haven

Examination Service - yacht DORADE II, tug FLYING BREEZE, both at Milford Haven, drifter GREETINGS at Cardiff (no COs listed)

Harbour Defence patrol Craft - three at Milford Haven, two at Cardiff

Auxiliary patrol vessels - three at Milford Haven, five requisitioned at Hull

Boom defence vessel - one at Pembroke Dock

Rescue tugs - SUPERMAN at Milford Haven, WITTE ZEE at sea, (no COs listed)

Western Approaches Command, Liverpool Sub Command​

Birkenhead​

Base ship - EAGLE II (Cdr H S M Herbert Rtd)

2nd Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine trawlers CORNELIAN (Ty Lt H F Hayes Pbty RNVR) at Rosyth, PEARL (Cdr N B Weir Rtd), RUBY (Ty Lt R P Chapman RNR), both at Birkenhead

37th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine trawler GUAVA (Sk H Clarke RNR) at Belfast repairing

88th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine yachts ALTAIR (Cdr D H Rainier) at Birkenhead, EVADNE (Cdr W G A Shuttleworth Rtd) at Liverpool, LADY BLANCHE (Cdr C Euman Rtd) at Birkenhead, VIRGINIA (Cdr S H S Moxly Rtd) at Birkenhead, VIVA II (Capt R L Hamer Rtd) temporarily attached

Anti-submarine patrol yacht - CUTTY SARK (Cdr R H Mack Rtd) at Liverpool

Anti-submarine patrol trawlers - anti-submarine trawlerS BUSH (Ty Sk E Sumner RNR) fitting out, CARENCY (Sk W ReaichRNR), CORCYRA (Sk B Truefitt RNR), DESTINN (TySk J McCann RNR), E & F (no CO listed) fitting out, ELECTRA II (Ty Sk T Threlfall RNR) fitting out, GREAT ADMIRAL (Ty Sk D Nolan Pbty RNR) fitting out, PHRONTIS (Ty Sk J R Carter RNR) fitting out, WARLAND (no CO listed), WARSTAR (Sk W J Barlow Actg RNR), all at Liverpool

Minesweeping trawlers - DOON (Ty Sk J V Bullen RNVR), HORNBEAM (Ty Lt A G Mathews RNVR), both at Swansea, MICHAEL GRIFFITHS (TySk G E Yates RNR), RICHARD CROFT (TySk R H Maulkinson RNR), both at Birkenhead, ST OLIVE (TySk J W KernanRNR from 3 Aug), STAR OF THE WAVE (Ty Sk J Wells RNR), both at Jarrow fitting out, YEZO (Sk L G Pillar RNR) at Liverpool

Minesweeping drifters - ADVISABLE (Ty Sk R Wright RNR), AMALIA (Ty Sk W J Campbell RNR), BANSHEE (Ty Sk S Platten RNR), OCEAN LIFEBUOY (Sk A B Utting RNR), OCEAN VIM (Ty Sk W E Nightingale RNR), all at Birkenhead

Harbour Defence patrol Craft - five motor boats at Birkenhead

Examination Service - yacht CACOUNA (no CO listed), trawlers ST ADRIAN (Ty S/Lt J D Barrrow Pbty RNVR), ST DOMINICA (Lt Cdr C W E Pinckney RNR), all at Liverpool

Holyhead​

Base ship - TORCH (Capt J B Kitson DSO Rtd)

1st Motor Anti-Submarine Boat Flotilla - MA/SB.1 (Lt M E Impey), MA/SB.4 (Lt B J Anderson), MA/SB.5 (Lt M E Thorpe), all at Harwich, MA/SB.2 and MA/SB.3 transferred to Malta

Barrow​

Base ship - CLIO (Cdr F C Corbyn Rtd)

Examination Service - yachts MINORA (Ty S/Lt S E Harwood RNVR), SHIONA (no CO listed), both at Barrow

Harbour defence patrol craft - two at Barrow, one fitting out at Barrow

Western Approaches Command, Belfast Sub Command​

Belfast​

Rear Adm R M King DSO Rtd​

Base ship - CAROLINE

Minesweeping trawlers - KENNYMORE (Ty Sk J W Greene RNR) at South Shields fitting out, RETAKO (Sk P Welsh RNR) at Granton

Minesweeping drifters - GLOAMIN (Ty Sk D Main RNR), HARVEST REAPER (Ty Sk W Smith RNR), JEWEL (Ty Sk H G Stone RNR), all at Belfast

Harbour defence patrol craft - five at Belfast

Examination service - trawlers SMEATON, ROBINA (no COs listed), both at Belfast

Larne​

Base ship - RACER (Capt T K Maxwell Rtd)

35th Anti-Submarine Group - anti-submarine trawlers BRITISH GUIANA (Sk S C Turrell RNR) at Belfast, BRITISH HONDURAS (Sk J Maclean RNR) at Greenock, PAYNTER (SO, Sk W J P Salaman RNR), VICTRIX (Cdr F R Openshaw Rtd), both at Larne

Anti-Submarine patrol trawlers - anti-submarine trawlers CARBINEER II (Ty Sk J F Nuttall RNR), FLYING WING (no CO listed), KASTORIA (Ty Sk J S Brennan RNR), NAMUR (no CO listed), UNITIA (Ty Sk J Pidgen RNR), all at Larne

Minesweeping trawler - SIR JOHN JOHNSON (no CO listed) at Larne



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I agree with Herr <insert German name here>. There is only so much that air supremacy can do against the might of the Royal Navy. We would have destroyed the RAF, but the Fleet Air Arm will definitely acheive what the RAF would fail to do...

 

[Axeman]

Well I know our Italian allies have been doing alot of work with the Arado company in developing effective Torpedoes, then there is always our far off Japanese allies who are undoubtedly superior to us in Naval Aviation, if we can acquire blueprints and licensing rights for superior air to sea torpedos and we undergo a crash course in naval aviation then the Luffwaffe may be able to assist in the actual crossing.

I do however agree though that the first thing that must be done is maintain air superiority over Britain.

 

[Ariosto]

These reports are distrubing as to the size of the Royal Navy. However, I think the Luftwaffe can make up for it. The Ju 87 has proven effective in an anti-shipping role, and due to the short distances involved, should be any to effectively aid our fleet in the English Channel. However that is only once air supremacy is achieved over Great Britain.

Therefore, the fleet should only sortie out once air supremacy is achieved, sometime in September or October. The Luftwaffe will be given the timeframe from June to August to destroy the Royal Air Force.

As a previous officer stated, we should try and destroy as much as we can on the ground, disabling their Air Bases as much as possible. Their radar installations are important as well. Factories should be a secondary target, since if we take out the Air Bases, or at least put them out of action, then there is no way for the aircraft to take off effectively, house them, etc.

As for their Naval Air Arm, I will leave them to the Ju 87's. Enough bombs into those floating islands and they will sink under the waves. However, if we could somehow equip our fighters with torpedos on the fuselage, from which it can be dropped, that would be all the better, and more effective.

 

[nbcman]

As for their Naval Air Arm, I will leave them to the Ju 87's. Enough bombs into those floating islands and they will sink under the waves. However, if we could somehow equip our fighters with torpedos on the fuselage, from which it can be dropped, that would be all the better, and more effective.

German Airdropped torps were about 1625 lbs / 740 kgs. I don't think any fighter could lift that weight - let alone have sufficient clearance underneath the fuselage to mount a torp.

Where will you get the armor piercing bombs for the Ju 87 to effectively attack armored vessels - will you drop production the General Purpose bombs which you will need in the war against France? Will you drop production of other armaments to free up the materials to make the AP bombs?

 

[ChaosNDiscord]

I belive the invasion is folly but, the best chance we have is to gain air supremacy and then turn the british ports into rubble - sink anything that hides in the southern and eastern ports. Then perhaps using a u-boat and air screen ships could dash across the channel. How we could keep this secret from the British and supplied, is beyond me. Perhaps if we were able to seize the French fleet we might have a chance at temporary naval superiority in the channel...

I think the best idea is to gain air supremacy as previously stated. Destroy British port facilities and any ships within range of our bombers. Make it difficult if not impossible for their ships to anchor within range of our planes. Then while keeping up pressure over Britain, bombing factories, fuel depots, transportation infrastructure to keep resources from reaching the factories, we must use the luftwaffe in conjunction with the u-boat fleets to starve the island. Nothing must come in our out. Unable to feed itself, the British will soon be on their knees.

 

[Fletch]

I belive the invasion is folly but, the best chance we have is to gain air supremacy and then turn the british ports into rubble - sink anything that hides in the southern and eastern ports. Then perhaps using a u-boat and air screen ships could dash across the channel. How we could keep this secret from the British and supplied, is beyond me. Perhaps if we were able to seize the French fleet we might have a chance at temporary naval superiority in the channel...

I think the best idea is to gain air supremacy as previously stated. Destroy British port facilities and any ships within range of our bombers. Make it difficult if not impossible for their ships to anchor within range of our planes. Then while keeping up pressure over Britain, bombing factories, fuel depots, transportation infrastructure to keep resources from reaching the factories, we must use the luftwaffe in conjunction with the u-boat fleets to starve the island. Nothing must come in our out. Unable to feed itself, the British will soon be on their knees.

Bombing the southern ports will only help the first wave. All the RN need to do is station their fleet in Rosyth and send it down in the event of an invasion. This would mean that once the first wave is across, they are trapped with no chance of supply. Also if the ports are bombed to bits, how will the heavy armour get across?

This brings me on to another point. Landing craft. How on earth are we going to get enough landing craft for hundreds of thousdands of soldiers in less than a year. Any timescale over this and the invasion is out of the question anyway. Seriously, what will you bring them across on? River barges?

The scheme is doomed.

 

[Van555]

Mein fuhrer, if you are reading this... I'm in Brazil!

Sincerely,

Guy with all your technical files

P.S.: F you

 

[Ariosto]

A company in Fiume known as "Whitehead" produces aerial torpedos that could be carried by our Messerschmitt Bf 110's. They weigh around nine hundred kilograms, and have an explosive charge of two hundred kilograms. If a significant portion of our Bf 110's are properly armed with these torpedos, they will be within easy distance to assist our forces in the Channel against naval attack. Also, they can hold their own pretty well against anything the Royal Air Force can throw at them.

Ju 87's will be armed with armor piercing bombs, yes. Production will have to be altered slightly yes. Regardless, the fleet would not sally forth until September, giving us two months to produce the armor piercing and convential bombs to be used against the Royal Navy.

The Southern Ports MUST, and I repeat, MUST be left untouched. We unfortunately need them to resupply our forces once the make it ashore. However, we can bomb other major naval facilities, just not the ones we are going to need to support the intial landings.

The situation of the landing craft is difficult. There have been proposals regarding the Marinefährprahm, but these were not ready until April of the next year. Considering we are writing proposals in January of 1940, rather than July of 1940, we can pull that time back to October of 1940. Give them priority for construction and commisioning, and we can begin placing them within the Kriegsmarine by the end of August, 1940. We may have to wait until October to reach proper numbers for the Operation, but that just gives us more time to finish the Naval Gun Emplacements and for the Luftwaffe to soften their defences.


Note: If these landing craft had been produced even just two months later, I would openly admit that Operation Sealion was immpossible under the circumstances.

 

[Don Lardo]

A company in Fiume known as "Whitehead" produces aerial torpedos that could be carried by our Messerschmitt Bf 110's.

IC: Yeah, that will work because we can duct tape the torpedoes in place. It will hold long enough to sink all those Royal Navy ships.

There's no real need to design, develop, test, redesign, mass produce, and install all the fittings needed to turn a twin-engined heavy fighter into a torpedo bomber. And even if the duct tape doesn't work we can do all that design, manufacturing, and retro-fitting in a weekend anyways.

And the pilots, air crews, and ground staffs won't need to be re-trained in the use, arming, and maintenance of torpedoes either. Sure, other countries needed time to train their torpedo bomber pilots and air crews but our Aryan Supermen won't need to bother with any of that nonsense. Successfully aiming and dropping a torpedo from an airplane will be just as easy as learning to take off with a torpedo slung underneath your plane. Besides, they can get all the practice they need in the weekend we use to refit the planes.

OOC: When you find yourself in a hole, it's best to put down the shovel. Even when you're only roleplaying finding yourself in a hole, it's best to put down the shovel.

What makes this particular hole so special is that thousands of people, many of them professional military officers with a better command of the actual facts than anyone here, have examined this topic and declared it utter nonsense. You're not going to find something or suggest something all those other, better informed people somehow overlooked.

A successful Sealion whose planning begins in 1940 is an impossibility. I'd go as far to say that the primary requirement for Germany to launch such a Sealion wouldn't be one of men or material, but rather would be a mass insanity on the part of the entire military command structure.

It cannot be done and, because of that, Germany isn't stupid enough to try to do it.

 

[Ariosto]

IC: Yeah, that will work because we can duct tape the torpedoes in place. It will hold long enough to sink all those Royal Navy ships.

There's no real need to design, develop, test, redesign, mass produce, and install all the fittings needed to turn a twin-engined heavy fighter into a torpedo bomber. And even if the duct tape doesn't work we can do all that design, manufacturing, and retro-fitting in a weekend anyways.

And the pilots, air crews, and ground staffs won't need to be re-trained in the use, arming, and maintenance of torpedoes either. Sure, other countries needed time to train their torpedo bomber pilots and air crews but our Aryan Supermen won't need to bother with of that nonsense. Successfully aiming and dropping a torpedo from an airplane will be just as easy as learning to take off with a torpedo slung underneath your plane. Besides, they can get all the practice they need in the weekend we use to refit the planes.

OOC: When you find yourself in a hole, it's best to put down the shovel. Even when you're only roleplaying finding yourself in a hole, it's best to put down the shovel.

What makes this particular hole so special is that thousands of people, many of them professional military officers with a better command of the actual facts than anyone here, have examined this topic and declared it utter nonsense. You're not going to find something or suggest something all those other, better informed people somehow overlooked.

A successful Sealion whose planning begins in 1940 is an impossibility. I'd go as far to say that the primary requirement for Germany to launch such a Sealion wouldn't be one of men or material, but rather would be a mass insanity on the part of the entire military command structure.

It cannot be done and, because of that, Germany isn't stupid enough to try to do it.

What would need to be installed is a clamp in the underbelly similar to what was eventually placed on certain versions of the Fw 190. It would take some time, but this is during the Phoney War, so such modifications can be done without major risk. They could also conduct trials in the Baltic Sea. They already had a system for delivering torpedos, but they were rather ineffective and poorly designed compared to those of Italian make. And they would not be needed until September at the earliest.

Also, we are, again, planning from January, not July. If we were planning from then latter, there would be no chance for success.

 

[mailinutile2]

We are not afraid to mention the Unmentionable Sea Mammal!
We will not run away from Its fearful whiskers!
We wil throw codfish and smile at It playfully doodling with baloons!

We will happily refer to the TauchPanzer III, Landwasserschlepper, Vergeltungswaffe 3, Transporterflotte Speer, HimmelSturmer projects!

We could even dream of Zeppelin-launched Paratroopers!

And if anything else fails, there is always the The_Alien_Space_SeaLions_Zoo !

 

[Don Lardo]

What would need to be installed is a clamp in the underbelly similar to what was eventually placed on certain versions of the Fw 190.

"Eventually" done, and with very poor results. But it will work this time, right?

It would take some time, but this is during the Phoney War, so such modifications can be done without major risk.

Sure. Of course all those torpedo-carrying Bf110s won't be available for the air offensive that is also part of you cockamamie scheme. They proved ineffectual during the real BoB, but you don't know that yet, so good luck getting them away from Goering in order to duct tape torpedoes on them.

They could also conduct trials in the Baltic Sea.

Yeah, because retraining all those pilots and crews is just child's play, right?

Also, we are, again, planning from January, not July. If we were planning from then latter, there would be no chance for success.

As another 6 months makes all the difference.

I'll say it again: Smarter people than we and people with more of the facts in hand than we say this is nonsense and have said it is nonsense for over 60 years. There is nothing you will suggest that they did not already examine and find lacking. Nothing.

Your ideas will not work. Your ideas do not work. You will accomplish nothing here except to make yourself look like a fool.

 

[HMS Warspite]

I suggest to buy a copy of Macksey, K.: "Invasion, The German invasion of England, july 1940", ISBN: 0-85368-324-7.

 

[juanml82]

Your ideas will not work. Your ideas do not work. You will accomplish nothing here except to make yourself look like a fool.

OOC: Calm down man. This is a RP. It won't work, but it's still fun to discuss.

 

[Ariosto]

"Eventually" done, and with very poor results. But it will work this time, right?



Sure. Of course all those torpedo-carrying Bf110s won't be available for the air offensive that is also part of you cockamamie scheme. They proved ineffectual during the real BoB, but you don't know that yet, so good luck getting them away from Goering in order to duct tape torpedoes on them.



Yeah, because retraining all those pilots and crews is just child's play, right?



As another 6 months makes all the difference.

I'll say it again: Smarter people than we and people with more of the facts in hand than we say this is nonsense and have said it is nonsense for over 60 years. There is nothing you will suggest that they did not already examine and find lacking. Nothing.

Your ideas will not work. Your ideas do not work. You will accomplish nothing here except to make yourself look like a fool.

The clamp for aerial torpedos already existed in Germany, the problem was that the torpedo itself was poorly designed, and they did not get around to fixing it until 41-42. As it is, not ALL of the Bf 110's are capable of carrying the weight of the torpedo effectively, only certain varients case. Thus, most of the Bf 110's will still be deployed in the Battle of Britain. If the crew is given five to six months to train, with two excluded months being used to properly install the system within the Bf 110's, I don't see how they don't have enough time. They are already trained how to fly the plane, they just need to train on how to use the torpedo. Once the torpedo is released, it is right back to their former training and experiance.

And yes, I understand that others have written on the unmentionable sea mammal; I have read several essays on the subject, including the War Game that was done. However, I am willing to try myself to see if pre-planning during the Phony War could have made it possible.

 

[Meadow]

I'm going out on a limb somewhat, perhaps, but is there a generally accepted date at which Germany could have begun drastic production changes that could have made a 1940 invasion plausible? I know it's accepted that, if Germany beats the USSR (another controversial topic) and just bombs the UK for a few years while building up a new naval force with all the time in the world, it could do it in say 1950, but that's hardly the same thing. And this would rely on no USA, and if the USA aren't in it, once the USSR drops out the British aren't going to stay in the war long enough to allow the Germans to try and invade - I'd expect an offer of negotiated peace.

 

[Hades]

You disguise the Sea Mammal in an ultimate challenge? Then, Thou hast lost an eighth!

 

[Scottyp]

First of all, a direct attack on England with sea invasion, even supported by paratroopers and partially resupplied from the air has a slim to no chance of success. The key to defeating them is simply to make staying in the war as painful and expensive as possible. This calls for a variety of tactics, some real some fake to put England on the defensive and raise the costs as high as possible.

1.) Keep talking up a sea invasion. It pins down their navy.
2.) Attack and keep attacking their air force until superiority is achieved.
3.) Attack their lifelines as boldly as possible. Get and keep every U-Boat out to sea as long as possible.
4.) Increase their supply lines and threaten their Empire. This begins by denying the Mediterranean Sea to them.
4.1) Take and hold Gibralter as quickly as possible.
4.2) Take and hold Malta as quickly as possible.
4.3) Begin training squadrons of the Luftwaffe and our subs to work with the Italian Navy.
4.4) Invade Africa and threaten the Suez canal.
4.5) When France surrenders, take control of her navy as quickly as possible.
4.6) When France surrenders, occupy North africa coast line to use as base for aircraft and subs.
4.7) Plan on eventually occupying islands in west mediterranean (Crete, Cyprus) to use as bases to strike at Suez and threaten oil supply.
5.) Foment unrest in british empire, especially in Jordan and Iraq.
6.) Announce plans to build fleet capable of destroying british fleet.

 

[Don Lardo]

However, I am willing to try myself to see if pre-planning during the Phony War could have made it possible.

I don't need to try for myself to see if whether hitting my thumb with a ballpeen hammer hurts. I can rely on the experience of others.

Others smarter, armed with more facts, and with more understanding of this topic than you or I have shown that no amount of pre-planning during the Phony War can make Sealion possible. As with the ballpeen hammer, I'm content to read what they have to say on the matter.

You, of course, are free to examine the issue for yourself. However, in the end and if you're honest, you'll have to admit that all those people across all those decades were right.

So, you can waste your time with this topic just as you can smash your thumb to see if the hammer really hurts or if people were just lying.

 

[Dr. Luny]

If we want a chance of invading England any time in the future we are going to need extensive preparations that will require a great deal of time. The Luftwaffe will need to be larger and stronger than it is today and will need more pilots. I suggest we establish a robust pilot training program as soon as possible as well as designing an effective torpedo bomber, air-to-sea torpedo, and anti-shipping bombs for our dive-bombers. For the invasion itself, new Fallschirmjaeger and Luftlande units will need to be established and the necessary transport planes and gliders requisitioned.

The Kriegsmarine needs to be concentrated and strengthened into a force that can be used in conjunction with Luftwaffe assets along coastal Europe to draw the Royal Navy into engagements in which local superiority can be attained. All possible measures should be taken to capture the French navy intact. Coordination with Axis partners should be enhanced to help draw as many British resources as possible away from Britain.

Coastal artillery might be considered, but it's useless to produce and emplace it until air, and a measure of local sea superiority is attained.

Landing craft for tanks, infantry, and supporting units need to be designed and constructed, and tactics for their use must be developed.

In a long air-war air superiority would be gained over the channel and Southern England. The Home Fleet would be weakened through combined actions of the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. If these actions are successful enough and the Kriegsmarine doesn't take too much damage, we might be able to get to the point in late 1941 where we can successfully launch an invasion without the Royal Navy being able to smash through the channel and stop us.