I put white font and he already liked the post in which I told, right above yours. Maybe delete your post? I really don't want it to be a spoiler for people who haven't read it yet.
Twilight of the Red Tsar
- Thread starter Napoleon IV
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- dystopia stalin lives
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Anyone have a summary of modern day USA ITTL? How is Randian Libertarian Land managing itself?
I'd argue that North Korea was better off as well, despite Pyongyang being nuked and the South Koreans treating the North like second-class citizens.
Was Pyongyang nuked, though? During the Korean War, only Chinese cities were targeted and North Korea largely abstained from the Sino-Soviet War.
Plus, if Korea is still dominated by the likes of Park Chung-hee, alongside with that Kim was refused in any aid from USSR after the Korean War, whether if North Korea is better ITTL than OTL is up to debate.
Bookmark1995
Banned
It wasn't nuked. Napoleon didn't give any details, but I imagine Stalin was not particularly nice to the NKs. I imagine NK was BRUTALIZED.
OTL, Mr. Park may have been a dictator, but by the time he died, he left SK richer than NK.
ITTL, it might be...mixed.
chankljp
Donor
Considering that ITTL, the Korean War dragged on for another year, the Soviets never really making any efforts in helping the DPRK under Kim Il Sung to rebuild, and the country getting occupied by the Red Army during the Sino-Soviet War, I am sure that you are indeed correct in that the entire place would have been utterly wrecked. Combined with the food shortages that the USSR suffered from, I have no doubt that the Red Army would have looted the North Korean countryside and what little grain reserves they have for their own provisions.... I will not be surprised if some OTL 'Arduous March' level famine took place before the Soviets retreated, and the peninsula reunified under the ROK.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Not just a famine. Stalin also, most likely, brutally purged the North Korean leadership. So not only do you have famine, you have the destruction of entire class of intelligentsia.
By the time NK falls, what will be found are a bunch of ruins, with hopeless peasants living there.
ITTL, North Koreans might gain enormous sympathy ITTL. Like the Soviet Jews and Red Chinese, they will be seen as a people who were betrayed, not merely oppressed, but stabbed in the back by the false gospel of Stalinism.
chankljp
Donor
Something that I just realised: Given the more extended Korean War combined with the subsequent Soviet occupation of North Korea, the Korean culinary tradition of home-made kimchi (pickled cabbage and radishes) might just end up saving a lot of lives.
Allow me to explain: We have already explore the very likely scenario that during their occupation of the country, instead of being resupplied by their homeland, given the severe degree of shortages back in the USSR, the Soviet troops garrisoning North Korea will be getting much of their provisions by looting what little food stocks the locals have left by emptying every granary and warehouse they can get their hands on, leaving the locals with nothing but dust in their rice bowls....
Here is where the kimchi making tradition comes in: Even under the communist regime, in the countryside and even some of the cities, kimchi making was still done on an individual household level instead of collectively in an industrial scale. And the way that it was done is by having the pickled vegetables stored in large jars that were then buried underground out in the backyard in order for them to to keep cool during warmer months, and stay unfrozen during winter (A common way for people to preserve food before refrigerators became commonplace).
Hence, when the starving Red Army soldiers come door-to-door tearing Korean homes apart looking for food.... They are very unlikely to know about the giant jar of pickled vegetables buried right outside in the courtyard under their noses! Allowing the locals to keep at lease SOME food to themselves instead of starving to death.
As a bonus, since everyone will have their stock of kimchi buried underground, they will also be highly resilient to damage. So even after a family gets massacred or take away, with their house being burned down, their neighbours can still dig up that jar of life-saving vegetables for themselves instead of it being either looted by the marauding soldiers or destroyed along the rest of the house.
You also had to deal with the fallout from the nukes from the Korean War, and from Sino-Soviet War, and the waves of refugee trying to escape. The more we talk about North Korea, the more it becomes a Mad Max 1 style land. (And that's not getting into China, and Egypt, or Russia itself.)
I wounder....was there any Red Army forces left behind in North Korea? We have Russian bandits lacking, or rather not wanting to go back to the USSR.
List of archaeological sites in Korea. (AKA: What would have been likely destroyed by the Russians.)
chankljp
Donor
Well, I think that no matter how desperate the Soviet soldiers might be in not wanting to go back to their homeland, it will be a VERY bad idea for any Red Army soldiers to deserters to stay behind in Korea and either go bandit or settle down. Since almost as soon as the Soviets collapsed into Civil War, the South Koreans with US support moved in to reunify the peninsula... And neither the ROK nor the US will tolerate any Soviet presence (deserters or not) in Korea. Plus, given how homogeneous Korea was (And in many ways still is), a bunch of blonde-hair, blue-eyed 'baeg-in' running around will stand out like a sore thumb, so it's not even like they can try to blend-in with the locals.
The best option for a Red Army solider in Korea will be to flee south, and try to find an outpost or patrol near the DMZ to surrender to before the angry locals get to you (You have just stolen all their food, after all)... And pray that the position you are surrendering to are staffed by Americans instead of ROK troops, since I have a feeling that the latter might not be in a mood to be taking POWs after the utter brutalisation that their country had endured as a result of Stalin dragging on the war for another year.
Unfortunately, some of them might have knowledge of how the things were on the Eastern Front (peasants knew how to hide their potatoes from German invaders) during WWII and would dig up buried food.
Bookmark1995
Banned
While necessity is the mother of invention, desperation is the mooching uncle that can eliminate the gains from necessity.
The already hungry Soviet soldiers will have little compunctions about robbing the supposedly "reactionary" Korean peasants. Remember, they are being guided by the man who had no problem starving the Ukrainians, his own countrymen.
Their only real option would be to surrender to the free Russian forces who control the Eastern part of the country, and even then, it is clear they may not be merciful, since large parts of Siberia are populated by Gulag survivors.
Not really Mad Max, but more like an extremely impoverished police state.
Given the status of the ATL Troubles, I think you may find a lot more songs being like this...
Bookmark1995
Banned
I've come up with several scenarios for post-Soviet Russia ITTL, ranging from "Worst" to "Best".
1. Second Time of Troubles:
The CNS is unable to really reconcile its differences, reform Russia's inefficient institutions, solve corruption, and build a functioning government. The demands of ethnic groups are also way to strong. So by the ITTL 1970s, this leads to another Russian civil war, only without a Communist opponent, it is more multifaceted. Various warlords turn the Russian steppe into fiefdoms, nuclear and biological weapons are thrown about, genocides take place etc.
2. The resurrection of Stalinism.
The CNS build's institutions so weak, and a government so corrupt, that within a generation, a neo-Stalinist force seizes power, and stifles hopes for a free and independent Russian state. Soon, Stalin statues are put into the place, and people once again praise the Vozhd.
3. The regular cycle of Despotism:
A neo-tsarist or extreme nationalist fills the void of power instead. While he makes the token gestures to outside powers, this individual does little to improve to standard of living of the average Russian, nor create meaningful autonomy for non-Russian people. This could lead to the usual despotism, totalitarian of the right-wing kind, or the above scenario.
4. A painful, grudging transition to Democracy:
Russia becomes democratic at the end of the century, but it must go through a painful, economic, social, and political transition, enduring some periods of corruption, authoritarianism and violence.
5. The Germany Scenario:
In the aftermath of the civil war, the CNS is able to build a functioning Constitution, push a harsh de-Sovietization policy, properly punish and imprison the Stalinist and post-Stalinist figures of the Soviet Union, avoid the temptation of corruption and kleptocracy, and provide autonomy and independence to the ethnic groups seeking it.
Internationally, the CNS is able to repair its relations with the rest of the world. The West, convinced of their sincerity in building a better Russia, sends the CNS enormous amounts of aid for reconstruction.
The result is that by the ITTL 1980s, Russia has become a successful, prosperous, stable, and democratic society. Russian culture thrives and becomes world famous. Future generations of Russians are inoculated against nationalism and racism, Russian science transforms the world one more, etc.
1. Second Time of Troubles:
The CNS is unable to really reconcile its differences, reform Russia's inefficient institutions, solve corruption, and build a functioning government. The demands of ethnic groups are also way to strong. So by the ITTL 1970s, this leads to another Russian civil war, only without a Communist opponent, it is more multifaceted. Various warlords turn the Russian steppe into fiefdoms, nuclear and biological weapons are thrown about, genocides take place etc.
2. The resurrection of Stalinism.
The CNS build's institutions so weak, and a government so corrupt, that within a generation, a neo-Stalinist force seizes power, and stifles hopes for a free and independent Russian state. Soon, Stalin statues are put into the place, and people once again praise the Vozhd.
3. The regular cycle of Despotism:
A neo-tsarist or extreme nationalist fills the void of power instead. While he makes the token gestures to outside powers, this individual does little to improve to standard of living of the average Russian, nor create meaningful autonomy for non-Russian people. This could lead to the usual despotism, totalitarian of the right-wing kind, or the above scenario.
4. A painful, grudging transition to Democracy:
Russia becomes democratic at the end of the century, but it must go through a painful, economic, social, and political transition, enduring some periods of corruption, authoritarianism and violence.
5. The Germany Scenario:
In the aftermath of the civil war, the CNS is able to build a functioning Constitution, push a harsh de-Sovietization policy, properly punish and imprison the Stalinist and post-Stalinist figures of the Soviet Union, avoid the temptation of corruption and kleptocracy, and provide autonomy and independence to the ethnic groups seeking it.
Internationally, the CNS is able to repair its relations with the rest of the world. The West, convinced of their sincerity in building a better Russia, sends the CNS enormous amounts of aid for reconstruction.
The result is that by the ITTL 1980s, Russia has become a successful, prosperous, stable, and democratic society. Russian culture thrives and becomes world famous. Future generations of Russians are inoculated against nationalism and racism, Russian science transforms the world one more, etc.
chankljp
Donor
Personally, I don't think that either KMT China, the US, Japan, and Europe will tolerate the idea of a any sort of Stalinist reemergence from taking place in Russia. In fact, even if Russia successfully become a respectable Western Democracy, I really don't think they will be allowed to keep any stockpiles of nukes and other WMD.
The worst case scenario, I think, will be the country getting utterly balkanised. With the West supporting warlords that pay lip service to the ideals of democracy, and keep them fighting against in low intensity warfare against each other for their conflicting territorial claims. While at the same time, a weak central government claiming to be the legitimate successor to the CNS will control the major cities and the boarder areas to keep things relatively stable.... But have their other orders and edicts largely ignored by the warlords.
Man, you could write a whole timeline with all 5 scenarios happening at different points.
Bookmark1995
Banned
That is what I meant by the warlord era, though I imagine only the Chinese would be vindictive enough to support warlords. The rest of Europe wants a stable Russia, not one producing millions of refugees.
Speaking of which, I think the outside world will have a "nukes for gold" type deal with Russia: give up your nukes, and you can have money.
Have NATO finally do it, and have boots on the ground in Moscow and it be complete. (As the Polish–Lithuanian took Moscow during the first Time of Troubles.)
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