Tsarist Russia survives

This is a timeline I was working on when I thought about how radically different the world (and WWII) would have been had Tsarist Russia survived, so here I am proposing (up until 1976 where things get too far-fetched to effectively manage) an ATL where Lenin fails in his coup, Karensky's government is ousted, and Grand Duchess Olga is handed the crown of Russia. There are some major holes in it, I know, but it is treated as best I can manage with the dozens of crazy PODs (such as WWII starting in 1932 and a proto-EU forming in Eastern Europe following WWII). It stops at 1976 because a second major divergence occurs after which things would spiral in a completely different direction due to events of a liberalization in Russia in that year. Anyway, here it is. Critique me. Just don't call me stupid cuz then I'll cry. :D Contribute also.
Before I forget and get yelled at for it, the timeline focuses entirely on Europe. The Chinese, Cuban, and other revolutions are assumed to have occurred as they did in OTL, if not sooner, later, or under different circumstances due to a missing Soviet Union. Feel free to interject and tell why these changes in circumstances might alter the ATL as presented.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1917 Lenin’s coup is aborted following Karensky’s roundup of many high-ranking conspirators.

1918 Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan erupt in anti-Russian revolution. Desperate to maintain Russian hegemony, Karensky signs an armistice with Germany and diverts Russian arms to the Caucasus.
WWI ends with Wilhelm’s abdication.

1919 Persia, after signing a treaty with Armenia’s provisional government, occupies Armenia effectively preventing Russian re-occupation. Azerbaijan is subdued after only a few weeks. A similar treaty with Persia prevents the re-occupation of Georgia, however Georgia remains independent.

1920 Disgusted with Karensky’s corrupt regime, the ongoing wars in Central Asia and the Caucasus, and the lack of a proper Duma, military officers overthrow Karensky, raid Tsarskoe Selo, and return the Romanovs to power. Grand Duchess Olga is handed the crown, being considered the most-able to control a rebellious Russia out of the other members of her family.

1921 Tsarina Olga Nicholaevna orders the execution of Lenin.
A border dispute between Georgia and Turkey leads to Russian interference on the
side of Turkey. The Russo-Georgian war begins.

1922-1924
The Russo-Georgian War
1922 Russia stations forces along the Georgian border which are fired upon. Tsarina Olga orders the Russian army to invade.
1923 Turkish forces invade Georgia, aiding the Russians.
1924 The Georgians surrender, and the Russians authorize a joint Russian- Turkish occupation. Formal demarcation establishes the new borders.


1922 Armenia rebels against Persia and signs a declaration of annexation by Turkey, extending Turkey’s borders.

1923 The Weimar Republic signs a mutual pact of non-aggression with Russia. President Hoover tours Europe, paying special attention to the tension in Eastern Europe.

1924 After being stricken by a harsh flu, Nicholas II collapses and dies. Thrown into a fit of hysteria, Alexis falls down the stairs at Tsarskoe Selo, cutting himself. His hemophilia contributes to his death. Grand Duchesses Tatiana and Anastasia enter mandatory periods of mourning, and Tsarina Olga cancels her trip to Spain.

1925 Olga marries Duke Nikita Reskinev of Rostov. The prenuptial agreement signed at the wedding forbids Nikita’s claim to power.
The Estonian Revolution makes Olga fear that revolution will spread back into Russia. To prevent this spread, she invades the Baltic countries, signing a pact with the Germans, allowing the German occupation of Lithuania.

1926 In an attempt to help legitimize her invasions of Estonia and Latvia, Tsarina Olga urges the pan-Slavic movement in the Balkans to unify under the Yugoslav Kingdom. She condones the subsequent invasion of Albania, and attempts to unify Bulgaria under the Yugoslav banner as well.
Fearing the growth of Yugoslavia, Greece occupies southern Albania in an attempt to maintain a buffer satellite against Yugoslavia.

1927 The Russian Queen Mother, Empress Alexandra, dies.
Bulgaria’s monarch is overthrown and Yugoslav armies move in to solidify their claim on a “Unified Balkan Peninsula.” Pro-Yugoslav conspirators in Bulgaria help in a near-bloodless unification with Yugoslavia and are given top positions in Bulgaria’s new government. Empress Olga condones these actions publicly, and decries the continued intervention of Greece in Albania.

1928 With Nazism on the rise in Germany, Empress Olga begins working closely with the Weimar Republic, hoping that the Nazi party can fizzle away with economic aide from the growing Russian economy.
Russian revolutionaries plan to assassinate Olga, but their plan is foiled when their bomb goes off in the train to Moscow, killing themselves and hundreds of civilians. Olga uses this as an impetus to continue her consolidation of power.

1929 Economic crisis in Romania slows economic aid to Germany.
The Russo-Turkish Economic Cooperation Act, passed in both countries, greatly stabilizes both respectful economies.
The German government, seeking similar stabilization, requests entrance into the ECA, but is denied when the Turkish government cites continued inflation in Germany as a primary block to any sort of cooperation.

1930 Prince Alexander IV is born to Olga.
Unrest in Hungary against the Austrians leads to the division of Austria into Austria and Hungary. The Magyar monarch in Bucharest allies with Russia to the disdain of the Austrians.

1931 Yugoslavia and Greece go to war over Albania. Yugoslavia, fuelled by Russian and Turkish arms and aid quickly overruns Greece, which is quickly divided between Yugoslavia and Turkey. The Weimar Republic, long-time friends of Greece, denounces these acts. Tensions mount between Russia and Germany, fuelling Nazi rhetoric.

1932-1945 World War Two

1932 Fearing an imminent invasion by Russia, Hitler leads a massive rebellion in Munich against the Republic. He succeeds and installs himself as Der Fuhrer. Russia ends all diplomatic ties with Germany, and to prevent their own feared imminent invasion, Russia invades and occupies Prussia-Lithuania, sparking World War Two.

1933 Poland is invaded by eager Nazi paramilitary forces. Russian soldiers march into Warsaw to protect it against German aggression. The Russian battleship Lena bombards coastal towns in Germany.

1934 Pro-German Czechoslovakia and Austria join forces for the invasion of Poland.
Sweden, Denmark, and Norway join the coalition and drive Russia from Warsaw. Yugoslavia joins the war on Russia’s side and invades Austria.

1935 Mussolini invades Yugoslavia with Austrian aid. Hungary, despite its alliance with Russia, maintains its neutrality.

1936 Poland surrenders to Germany following the Russian pullout. Czechoslovak and Austrian forces turn their attention to forcing the surrender of Yugoslavia. Turkey sends divisions north to defend Yugoslavia, but they are massacred at the Battle of Sarajevo.

1937 After four years of forced industrialization, Germany’s economy grows strong enough to support the war. The idea of Blitzkrieg is developed and tested in the Netherlands. From there, the Germans invade Belgium and Luxemburg, calling on France and Britain to aid in the implementation of Blitzkrieg against Russia.
The Axis Alliance is signed by Japan, Germany, Italy, Austria, and Czechoslovakia.

1938 The German occupation of Poland is completed. Yugoslavia surrenders to the Axis
powers. Greece revolts and secedes. Austria invades and occupies Hungary.

1939 Grand Duchess Anastasia travels to the United States on a friendly visit. Within closed quarters, she manages to extract a promise that, should German forces step foot on Russian soil, the United States will declare war against Germany.

1940 France is invaded and occupied by Germany.

1941 Romania is divided between Italy and Germany.
German forces cross the border into Russia. The United States declares war the following morning.
American forces land in Britain and bombing raids begin in Germany.

1942 A full-fledged invasion of Germany begins.
By November, Germany has retreated from France.
Russia occupies Poland East of the Dniepr.

1943 The Italian revolution overthrows Mussolini and ends Italian control overseas.
French forces occupy Belgium, Luxemburg, and Saarland.

1944 German forces retreat from the Netherlands.
Russian forces invade and occupy Berlin. Hitler is arrested and executed.

1945 The Treaty of the Rhine divides Germany according to Empress Olga’s wishes. Certain satellites are established to prevent a re-unification of Germany. Italy is likewise divided, with the approval of the provisional government in Rome.

1946 The Bavarian Republic and Kingdom of Brandenburg are assigned to the Russian sphere of influence, while the Republic of Westphalia is declared the legitimate successor to Germany and remains outside of a sphere of influence.
The Kingdom of Sicily and Naples is officially recognized by the Italian Republic, and the Papacy is officially awarded control over Rome and its surrounding countryside.

1947 France withdraws from Belgium and Luxemburg.

1948 Russia withdraws from Berlin.
The Czechoslovak and Austrian Axis governments are tried and executed by Russia.

1949 Empress Olga abandons her plan for a pan-Slavic kingdom in the Balkans, and begins pressing for economic reform in Russia and Turkey.

1950 Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Bavaria sign the Economic Cooperation Act.

1951 Greece attacks Turkish soldiers in Turkish-occupied Greece. An Emergency treaty is signed by Russia, Turkey, Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Bavaria, creating the East-European Confederation. The attack on Turkey is claimed to have occurred after the signing of this pact, and the confederate forces invade Greece.

1952 The Greek government is ousted from power and a pro-Confederate government is installed. The new government enters the EEC along with Brandenburg.

1953 Fearing the spread of Russo-Turkish influence, France, Westphalia, Britain, and Spain sign the European Coordination Pact (ECP) to counter the EEC.

1954 The Netherlands, Luxemburg, Belgium, and Norway sign the ECP.

1955 Grand Duchess Tatiana dies of tuberculosis. The entire Russian Empire goes into mourning.

1956 The Turkish Republic invades Persia over a dispute on oil claims. Olga sends forces in to help Turkey press their claims. The ECP sends troops on the side of Persia, beginning the period that is to become known as the Cold War.

1957 Empress Olga suffers a heart attack and is removed from the public eye. The proxy war between the EEC and ECP in Persia escalates when Turkey announces its plan to occupy Persia and rebuild the Ottoman Empire.

1958 Grand Prince Alexander is crowned Prince Regent of Russia.

1959 Empress Olga dies. Alexander is crowned Emperor Alexander IV. He immediately denounces the ideological war between the EEC and ECP and withdraws Russian forces from Persia.

1960 Bavarian revolutionaries overthrow King George I and withdraw from the EEC.
Fearing that this will lead to the ultimate collapse of the EEC, military forces oust Alexander IV. His son, too young to take over, is placed in the care of the wife of General Yuri Zinoviev who is named Generalissimo of Russia.

1961 The remaining EEC members sign a treaty forbidding voluntary withdrawal, and mandating the invasion of any state attempting to withdraw without permission from Saint Petersburg.

1962 The Ruble is implemented as the national currency of all EEC member states, with a 1:1 exchange ratio between EEC states.

1963 Turkish revolutionaries seek to end Russian dominance in Ankara, but fail.
President Kennedy is assassinated for failing to be tougher on Russian expansionism.

1964 President Johnson denounces Generalissimo Zinoviev of Russia and President Toukom of Turkey, calling on greater cooperation between European powers.
Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq join the EEC.

1965 The Egyptian Crisis--revolution in Egypt ousts the pro-EEC government. The new government allies with India and attempts to create the non-aligned movement. ECP forces occupy Alexandria and EEC forces amass along the Israeli and Egyptian borders, preparing a full sweep into Egypt. Fearing a full-scale invasion by the EEC from which it will not recover, the Egyptian government capitulates and joins the EEC.

1967 Johnson condemns Zinoviev and calls Russia the “Empire of Evil.”
President Toukom of Turkey is overthrown by a military coup. Zinoviev’s involvement is widely suspected.

1968 Crowned Prince Nicholas III turns sixteen and eagerly takes over from Zinoviev, who is named Prime Minister to the Crown, Regent of the Duma, and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, wielding immense and near totalitarian powers over Russia.

1969 Nicholas III revokes Russia’s recognition of the United States, calling it an “oppressive, totalitarian democracy plagued by evil, corruption, and godlessness.”

1970 The Iranian Revolution creates a similar crisis to that in Egypt five years earlier. EEC intervention fails, and Russia’s monopoly over the EEC begins to crumble.

1971 Bavaria and Westphalia sign the German Unity Pact and begin urging Brandenburg to break from the EEC and join the GUP.
EEC divisions enter Berlin and hold the Brandenburg government hostage until Bavaria and Westphalia retract their invitation to join the GUP.

1972 Richard Nixon denounces Nicholas III and creates NATO, supplanting the ECP.

1973 Corruption in the Sicilian government leads to widespread unrest. Elections establish a new government, which eagerly calls on Italian unification.

1974 Greece rebels against the EEC puppet government. Unsatisfied with thirty years of corruption and economic stagnation, Yugoslavia breaks from the EEC and sends divisions into Greece to protect it from the imminent invasion.
Zinoviev orders the EEC members to invade Yugoslavia and Greece, but Nicholas has him secretly arrested and executed before revoking the order. Nicholas’ sudden change of character to one tolerant of openness and democracy surprises the world and begins the implosion of the EEC.

1975 Full elections throughout Russia replace the seventy-six member Duma with a truly multi-party Duma of six hundred and seventy nine members. Turkey breaks from the EEC, claiming Russia has denounced the treaty.
The Solidarity movement in Poland secures early elections and wins by a landslide, likewise withdrawing from the EEC.

1976 Brandenburg breaks from the EEC, joining the GUP.
On August 12, Nicholas III officially withdraws Russia from the EEC. The Ruble is no longer accepted outside of Russia, and the former member states’ economies collapse overnight, pre-empting a second depression in Europe.

August 13, 1976-- Great Depression of Europe
 
And here is Europe circa 1945 at the signing of the Treaty of the Rhine:

 

Darkest

Banned
Quite good. I love Russian ATLs.

I would focus more attention to the Revolution and WWI, though. If Kerensky continued the war, he might have found himself in a much worse position, with Germans marching on Moscow, and further rebellion.

Most of the Russians loyal to the Tsar had already met their end on the Eastern Front, thus leaving the shattered, anti-war, revolutionary, starved remnants. Thus, Soviet Russia was born.

More war = More communism. If Tsarist Russia had lost even more men, we could see a Soviet dictatorship of a much higher caliber, or maybe a completely carved up Russia.

So, to keep the Tsarist regime intact, you are going to need to stop the war earlier. Or remove Rasputin from the scene. Or stop Alexei from getting hemophilia.

Alexei's hemophilia
-caused- Tsar Nicholas to get overconcerned with his family
-which caused- Rasputin to be invited to meddle
-which caused- the Russian government to become corrupted
-which caused- a government isolated from the people to come into being
-which caused- revolutionary feelings throughout Russia
-AND complemented- with massive losses on the Eastern Front...
... The Russian Revolution begins! The Romanovs are removed from the throne, and Russia is thrown into chaos.

By the way, ShadowCommunist... Where do your socialist ideologies lean? I'm a Trotskyist myself.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Hmmm... I commend you for your imagination & willingness to tackle such a difficult timeline (especially right out of the box). This being said, as you have asked for comment...

While I am a bit tempted to go into some depth, I will make my comments more general.

I would suggest that you look at the internal inconsistencies in the TL. For your 1918 POD to work, the Central Powers would have to be in even less powerful positions at War's end that was the case ITTL. This means that Austria-Hungary is broken up well before the date indicated in the ALT. There is zero chance that Austria & Hungray would remain together once the Czechs, Serbs, Croats & other subject states broke away. Yugoslavia would also most likely not exist. It was a post-WW I construct. If you attempt to force its creation in the late '20's, as posited here, Russia will have to intervene with considerable force to assist Serbia in bringing the Coats, Bosnians, Macedonians, etc. to heel

If Austria-Hungray survives the end of the War, that would mean that the Central Powers fought things to an even draw. That means no Weimar Republic, no enraged Austrian corporal, likely no Nazi Party.

BTW: The Polish ARMY would have destroyed a bunch of Brown-shirts in a week. The Polish cavalry might have been outclassed by Nazi panzers, but infantry, poorly trained infantry at that, is exactly what calvary is designed to kill.

Grand Duchess Anastasia must be a talented woman indeed to extract a promise from an American President to intervene on a Tsarist Russia's behalf in cas eof an attack. Even Churchill wasn't able to get that accomplished (unless you are implying that the Grand Dutchess used an alternate form of persuasion; in that case I don't think that FDR was UP for it). Remember, in this era, war decisions still lay completely with Congress, and while Anastasia seems to have been a pretty little girl, I doubt she would have grown into a woman with sufficient beauty (and stamina) to get a majority of the Senate & House to go to war without an attack on America.

A WW II in 1932 would, as a minimum, ensure enough butterflies that there is no President Kennedy in 1960, much less a Johnson in 1964. As far as Nixon...

I would finally suggest that you consider what each change you make early in a multi-generation timeline will have on out year effects. ITTL you might find that the U.K. keeps it's treaty with Japan, due to the threat that a stronger Russian has on the Raj. Or that the Germany hang Hitler in 1923 (or he dies from poison gas at the front). Or that, lacking the example of how disasterous a Communist revolution & government is, Germany & France are the site of the People's Revolution.

In any case, best of luck with your TL.
 
Thanks for the feedback. As I said, the primary focus of this TL is Europe, specifically Russia. I actually began to feel things becoming unmanagable as early as the 1950's, and felt some stuff slipping as early as my depiction of WWII, although similar to how it actually happened, I'm not a WWII expert and wasn't sure on many points of the "why" to effectively offer an alternative.

I appreciate the critique on the early dates of the TL, and will most-definitely address those in my revised version. I chose Grand Duchess Olga to rally a broken and rebellious Russia because of her historical forcefulness and insight, even during the detention at Tsarskoe Selo and Siberia, hoping (just as the hypothetical military officials) that she would be able to draw Russia out of the war and bring it back together, even if force was needed (as was the example of the Baltic and Caucasus invasions by Russia).

I'm having some trouble with Russia's response to a Hitler-led Germany, because I feel Olga would have reacted just as I depicted, but I don't feel Russia could have recovered from the internal confusion as quickly as I assumed. If anyone has any likely way of dealing with a re-modernization in the 20th century on the scale of Peter the Great, I would most definitely like to discuss it. But then, that kind of modernization and industrialization could have started the Cold War as early as the 1920's and 30's, creating a massive butterfly that would probably make this TL as unworkable as it is already at 1976.

As for names of presidents, as I said, the focus is mainly on Europe, so I was primarily keeping the butterfly effects as minimal as possible, even though they would probably be more substantial than I make them out to be.

Nonetheless, thanks for the comments. :)
 
Wow. Didn't even notice the question on my own ideologies. :D

I lean more towards the libertarian Communist line (I don't know enough about Trotsky to say if I'm in line with him, even though I think I would prefer him over Lenin), although my personal interpretation of Marxism tends to lean further away from the proletarian dictatorship to a Communalist democracy (factories, farms, etc. treated as independent political units) with a lack of extreme collectivization like that under Stalin. The closest I can compare to is EuroCommunism, though I disagree with certain points, but that would have to be my "categorical" placement.

I do believe in the ten-year term of the president though. :D As long as it's me. :p
 

Darkest

Banned
CalBear said:
I thought you were Mormon??

Mormon Socialist! Actually the Mormons did have a thing with socialism for a while, and still do a little bit, with our welfare system and 10% of all profit goes to tithing doctrine. Look up 'The United Order'.

My main thing with Trotskyism is that I believe it needs to happen on the world stage to have any success. Too many enemies of the idea. It is best aligned with my ideas. Democratic utopian socialist would be more fitting. But I could go into that for a while.

Yeah, like CalBear said, there are too many butterflies to screw up a lot of your ideas. Essentially, there could be a few exceptions (they were talking about a united Slavic state for years before WWI, a Yugoslavia might still come about). But, especially in terms with the famous people you include, you have to throw out people born after your POD.
 
Another major butterfly that I realized wasn't addressed is the blatant annexation of Saarland by the French. If memory serves, (and this could just be me imagining things) didn't Saarland gain independence from France through a plebiscite during the unification of Germany under Prussia, thus setting a precident against French occupation of the territory?
Additionally, the division of Greece would cause a lot of social unrest considering the recent independence of Greece from Turkey being a bitter memory for many who would be in the occupied Eastern portion of Greece, and the invasion and divison of Albania between Yugoslavia and Greece (pre-puppet) would create a lot of political strife in the EEC, especially after Greece becomes a puppet of the Russo-Turkish power alliance, because there would really be no reason within the EEC to continue to allow the occupation of Albania.

The post-war geography of Europe has enough butterflies to play with. I think I might do some in-depth, individual country profiles and play around with that to try and create a more plausible '45-'76 timeline before I even attempt to play with the economic collapse of the EEC. (Oh god...the light! I see the light! No...wait...that light is fire! Run away! Run away!)
 
Some nitpicks:

Russia and Turkey working together after being enemies for centuries? That goes too fast IMO.
Turkey annexes Athens, but the rest of Greece stays independent? That doesn't really make sense.
Would a Czarina be possible? I'm not sure, but I think Czar Paul made a law that women can't become Czarinas because he hated his mother, Catherine the Great.
If Nicholas is alive, why don't they make him Czar?
What means ECA? (OK, I see it's Economic Cooperation Act, but why do you mention it in 1929 already?)
Russia invades German Lithuania, and Hitler doesn't know better than invade Poland too?
Pro-German Czechoslovakia??
Why do Germany and Italy divide Romania?
Zinoviev doesn't have anything to do with the Communist politician, does he? IIRC Zinoviev was Jewish, and I can't imagine a Jew becoming a general in Czarist Russia.
The river in Poland is the Vistula.

And what is a libertarian communist?!
 
Overall Good TL, few things though, turks and armenians hate each others guts, I doubt armenia, an orthodox christianb country, would allow turkey, a muslim country to annex it. There is a thing called the armenian genocide of World War one you know.

Also the germans rhinelanders etc will not take well to being part of france, it looks like stuttgart is part of france also, france may rule over the area, but the germans will not be restive.

apart from that its ok, but I don't see why germany should of lost more territory than OTL.
 
ok, some feedback

1. If Kerensky manages to round-up the Bolsheviks it will probably be with Krasnov, as they both attempted OTL. This will mean he is already ceding power to more reactionary elements.

2. No communism= no nazism. It is as simple as that. The Bolsheviks barbarised the twentieth century, re-introducing political murder and torture practically single-handedly. This fear of the Red Terror led to the ferocity of actions like that of the Freikorps in Germany and the White Terror in Hungary, without the fear created by the Red Terror this violence would have been much more muted.

This is vital, it will mean there is a lot less sympathy amongst the conservatives for the radical right and their methods. Nazism would simply stay on the fringes, even the Fascists in Italy may not come to power.

Japanese aggression in Manchuria may well be still-born, completely revolutionizing the geo-politics of the 30s.

Germany will have a conservative Versailles-revisionist government by the 1930s. Britain will be willing to do a deal with this government, France and Russia probably not.

You have focussed too strongly on minor issues in Eastern Europe in the 30s/40s, think about how the Great Powers will be interacting on the world stage - and how strong and aggressive this Russia might be.
 
Wozza said:
The Bolsheviks barbarised the twentieth century, re-introducing political murder and torture practically single-handedly.

I object. The czarist secret police didn't use better methods either. I think the differences are:
1) Other than the Czar, the Bolsheviks weren't Allies of the West, so the "he's our bastard" clause doesn't appeal anymore.
2) The Bolsheviks killed on a wider scale.
3) They were ideological opponents.
 

Xen

Banned
Actually its very doubtful Olga would be made Empress of Russia, most likely the throne will pass to Nicholas II's brother Grand Duke Michael and if hes already been killed by Bolsheviks (assassination in ttl?) than it will pass to his son who if memory serves me correctly died in the 1920's.

Hitler comes to power sooner than OTL, regardless Germany will not be ready for war in 1932, it took Hitler 6 years to build the military up. Personally I believe World War II lasted far too long as well, Nazi Germany couldnt handle a prolonged conflict its economy just couldnt support it.

However I did enjoy the timeline, although I would like to have seen the next 24 years, I usually take my timelines to 2000 when I complete them. With such a radical change as Russia not going Commie, then anything after the 1920's will be radically different across the world, and by the 1950s things wont be recognizable, so keep going after the 1970s.
 
Max Sinister said:
I object. The czarist secret police didn't use better methods either. I think the differences are:
1) Other than the Czar, the Bolsheviks weren't Allies of the West, so the "he's our bastard" clause doesn't appeal anymore.
2) The Bolsheviks killed on a wider scale.
3) They were ideological opponents.

By WW1 the death penalty was abolished in Tsarist Russia for all except military crimes.

The problem was that political murderers were tried in courts and there was a trend for them to be let off by juries, leading to the introduction of a relatively more oppressive system in the 1880s.
 
Xen said:
Actually its very doubtful Olga would be made Empress of Russia, most likely the throne will pass to Nicholas II's brother Grand Duke Michael and if hes already been killed by Bolsheviks (assassination in ttl?) than it will pass to his son who if memory serves me correctly died in the 1920's...

The Russian Empire was under semi-salic law. Females couldn't ascend to the thone or transmit succession rights unless all male dynasts died. At one point there were hopes the Nicholas II would abdicate in favor of Alexei with Olga serving as regent during his minority. If Alexei were to be placed on the throne by the provisional government Olga could very well have served as regent. Then wen it became apparent that Tsar Alexander IV wouldn't live long enough to actually rule or have issue the succession law might be changed to male-preference primogenture (same system the UK uses).

Shadow, when the monarchy is restored how powerful is it? Is it a parliamentary system ala the UK where the monarch's role is limited to non-politcal head of state stuff or is Olga actively running the governmetn (like her father did). And what did happen to Nicholas II in your ATL? Was he killed after abdicating or did he survive in the background? Alix seems to have survived.
 
Theoretically, Olga is placed in charge with full presidency as was her father due to the situation in Russia. Later, she consolidates her power to prevent a full parliamentary monarchy, seeking instead to maintain the monarchy (read Nicholas and Alexandra--the education of the Romanovs was staunchly anti-democratic, hence Nicholas' innate fears of it)
Nicholas presumably retires, possibly to the Crimea or closer to Tsarskoe Selo to live out his life with Alexandra. I thought I had killed off Nicholas, resulting in Alexei's fall down the stairs (killing him). As for the Grand Dukes, they're going to be killed in the war in the revised version.
 
If Lenin and the Russian Revolution had failed, I think the most realistic scenario is one where Nicholas II would have remained Tsar. Nicholas II was only 50 years old in 1918, so he could well have been Tsar for many more years. Had he lived to be 80 years old or into his 80's, that would have him living to the late 1940's or early 1950's, so he could have led Russia through WWII and into the postwar era.

How Nicholas II would have responded or reacted to the attempted coup is a good question. Would he have tightened his grip on the Russian people, or would he have granted reforms and more freedom? From things I've read about Nicholas II and what he was like as a person, my guess is Nicholas II would have leaned more toward allowing or granting some reforms and freedoms, some of which might over the years have led to more of a constitutional monarchy.

If books like "Nicholas and Alexandra" are accurate in describing their personalities, then Nicholas II's personality was more gentle than the Tsars of Russia's past. Yes he was raised to be Tsar Autocrat, but his personality was not. So my thinking is Nicholas II would have leaned toward allowing reforms.

Would there still have been a WWII? I think so. I think two things caused WWII.

First, the treaty that ended WWI punished and humiliated Germany for causing the war and the European Allies made Germany pay war reperations to them. I think Nicholas II as a WWI allied leader would have gone with punishing Germany and requiring reperations.

Secondly, the economic depression of the 1930's. The Great Depression was worldwide. What brought Hitler and the Nazis to power in Germany and Muscolini (excuse my poor spelling) to power in Italy was the economy. In Germany Hitler promised to end Germany's economic troubles and to make Germany strong and proud again after their humiliation at the end ow WWI. That had nothing to do with Communists or Communism.

Had there been no Russian Revolution and if Nicholas II had Tsar, Hitler and the Nazis would still have come to power in Germany. I think Nicholas II would have opposed the Nazis. Yes the Russians traditionally hated the Jews. But I think Nicholas II would have seen Hitler for the madman he was and would have feared Hitler's rise to power, I think Nicholas II would have sided with his Brittish cousins. Russia would still have been an allied power in WWII.

Obviously it would have been a very different postwar world.

Suppose Nicholas II died in the early 1950's at around age 83. Would Alexei have survived and come to the throne? Good question. Given Russian succession laws it's pretty sure none of Nicholas II's daughters would have succeeded him. Olga could only have come to the throne if there is no male heir in any direct line. Even if Alexei had died before his father, he might have still married and fathered a son, and Nicholas II's grandson would have been ahead of his aunts in line for the throne. Nicholas II had a younger brother, and he also had a son or sons, so with no other male heir available it could have been one of them.

But my answer to the opening post and my feeling is that if Lenin had failed, if the Russian Revolution had failed, Nicholas would have remained on the Russian Throne for the rest of his life which could have lasted into the early 1950's.
 
The Mists Of Time said:
How Nicholas II would have responded or reacted to the attempted coup is a good question. Would he have tightened his grip on the Russian people, or would he have granted reforms and more freedom?

Based on his response to the 1905 revolt and the initial uprisings in 1916/7 there would have been a period of repression, followed by moderate concessions.

The Mists Of Time said:
Secondly, the economic depression of the 1930's. The Great Depression was worldwide. What brought Hitler and the Nazis to power in Germany and Muscolini (excuse my poor spelling) to power in Italy was the economy. In Germany Hitler promised to end Germany's economic troubles and to make Germany strong and proud again after their humiliation at the end ow WWI. That had nothing to do with Communists or Communism.

No it didn't but the fact that the Nazi's were elected into office, and even came into existence at all had a lot to do with the fear of communism - embodied by the USSR. Take away communism, and a communist state to validiate fear of communist revolt, in the inter-war years and it's debatable whether the militant far right would have emerged as a strong and MAINSTREAM political force in German politics during the 20s and 30s.

A lot of Germans who voted Nazi did so out of fear of communism and the possibility of a communist revolt. Take away the example of 1917/8 as a successful communist revolt and European communism would probably be a far less potent force in the C20th.

My question is what would the Tsars have done about paying off Russia's (huge) debts from WW1? The Soviets got around it by simply refusing to pay.
However the Tsar wuld still be heavily in hoc to London and Washington.
 
DoleScum said:
My question is what would the Tsars have done about paying off Russia's (huge) debts from WW1? The Soviets got around it by simply refusing to pay.
However the Tsar wuld still be heavily in hoc to London and Washington.


I'm guessing the same thing some of the other WWI Eurpean allies did. They punished Germany for causing WWI and forced Germany to pay them war reperations. They took those reperation payments and used them to pay off their war debts. I'm guessing the Russian Tsars would have done much the same thing.

By the way, if you and others are right that really fueled the rise of Adolf Hitler, The Nazis, and other European Fascists, even what cause Japan to go on the offensive was Communism and the fear of Communism, then my guess is that Hitler, The Nazis, other European Fascists, even Japan's agressiveness, all the things that caused WWII would never have happened.

In other words, had the Russian Revolution failed, had the Tsars remained in power in Russia there would be no Communism, and therefore there would have been no WWII.

My guess also is there would have been no rise of socialism either. I think the rise of socialism in the 1930's and in the postwar era came because of the success of Communism in Russia/the Soviet Union.

So if the Russian Revolution had failed and the Tsars had remained in power in Russia, there would have been no WWII and no rise of socialism. I'm guessing monarchy would be much stronger even today in the world and that we today would have a very different world.
 
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