TL-191 Map Thread Redux

I borrowed @S. Marlowski 's map and used it to depict the location of Confederate industrial and mineral centers.

Some of these are a combination of ITTL depictions (Atlanta, Birmingham, and Richmond are described as important industrial centers), OTL trends (Britsol, Big Lick/Roanoke, Knoxville and others did have nascent iron/steel industries, and Columbus/Phenix City and Selma were regionally important industrial centers during the OTL Civil War), and my own extrapolation given that the CSA managed to fight an industrial-scale war with the US for 4 years.

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I borrowed @S. Marlowski 's map and used it to depict the location of Confederate industrial and mineral centers.

Some of these are a combination of ITTL depictions (Atlanta, Birmingham, and Richmond are described as important industrial centers), OTL trends (Britsol, Big Lick/Roanoke, Knoxville and others did have nascent iron/steel industries, and Columbus/Phenix City and Selma were regionally important industrial centers during the OTL Civil War), and my own extrapolation given that the CSA managed to fight an industrial-scale war with the US for 4 years.

View attachment 588002
Well done with that map, though you could've also added Oil Refineries, which we all know oil and coal are the lifeblood for an industrialized society.
 
In a way this plan is more realistic than what was done. I have always thought that reabsorbing the CSA into the USA after 80 years of separation was too easy and simplistic. Its not like post Civil War OTL where the split was just for 4 years and was easily surmounted. You have two generations of people maybe three who have come to view the two countries as implacable enemies on top of in fact being two different countries so realistically that would take at least two generations to get over successfully if ever. Also when you consider what the Confederates did in the Destruction you would have millions of Americans who would not want to accept them as Americans then or ever....
I always found it so strange how people on this site had a predilection towards having the US give Canada back its independence while absorbing all of the former CSA. It never made any sense to me that the US would be able to eat a country with nearly 40 million people but not a country of 7 million that it had already controlled for 2 decades. I can see a lot of ethnic cleansing in the border states and maybe Louisiana so that the US controls the mouth of the Mississippi River, but absorbing all of the CSA (except Texas) just seems like too large of a task for the USA.
 
I always found it so strange how people on this site had a predilection towards having the US give Canada back its independence while absorbing all of the former CSA. It never made any sense to me that the US would be able to eat a country with nearly 40 million people but not a country of 7 million that it had already controlled for 2 decades. I can see a lot of ethnic cleansing in the border states and maybe Louisiana so that the US controls the mouth of the Mississippi River, but absorbing all of the CSA (except Texas) just seems like too large of a task for the USA.
Agreed taking Canada whole except for Quebec makes much more sense on just about every level rather than the CSA.
 
I always found it so strange how people on this site had a predilection towards having the US give Canada back its independence while absorbing all of the former CSA. It never made any sense to me that the US would be able to eat a country with nearly 40 million people but not a country of 7 million that it had already controlled for 2 decades. I can see a lot of ethnic cleansing in the border states and maybe Louisiana so that the US controls the mouth of the Mississippi River, but absorbing all of the CSA (except Texas) just seems like too large of a task for the USA.

I think the US will inevitably ethnicly cleanse the border states both to provide security (Even if a new Confederate state forms any new hypothetical attack North now starts a couple hundred more miles south. That and dealing with a Confederate insurgency in say five or six states is going to be easier then trying to fight an insurgency in like what 16 states?

I agree reabsorbing the former Confederate states as actual US States is going to be more or less impossible (At least while keeping the white former Confederate population in place and being able to vote). But the former CSA isn't going to be independent again any time soon. I think the US will heavily ethnically cleanse the border States (Tennessee, Virginia perhaps North Carolina, Oklahoma, maybe Kentucky, Arkansas, maybe one or two of the OTL Mexican Confederate states, and maybe parts of Louisiana). Baja California also probably get's seized from Mexico (That way the US doesn't have to worry about defending South California). Confederate Cuba might get independence/become a protectorate of the US with the US retaining basing rights.

Most of the rest of the former CSA will become something like a cross between Morgenthau plan Germany, the OTL Palestinian territories, and Indian reservations. Horrible horrible places to live for the White Confederate populace. Pretty much all of the CSA's former heavy (and most of it's non agricultural light industry) will be destroyed or dismantled and sent to the US with existing heavy industry in the ethnically cleansed states being immediately repurposed. Bans will be put in place on building any new heavy industry in the former Confederate Occupied Territories. The ports in the former Confederate occupied territories will be administered by the US. Their would be a heavy US military presence throughout the Occupied territories. There would be a ban on any sort of Confederate military and limitations on things like Police armament and numbers. I imagine just like OTL with former German and Japanese soldiers the former Confederate POWs will be held for at least a couple of years both for free labor as reparations and to limit the inevitable insurgency. Perhaps former CSA soldiers end up providing at least part of the labor for building a Panama/Nicaragua canal. Also of course heavy reparations on the Confederate Occupied Territories.

All in all a lot of war crimes/ crimes against humanities and the non ethnically cleansed CSA states will be incredibly terrible places to live and their will be massive suffering.

The ethnicly cleansed states get something along the lines of a "Homestead Act" with allotments of land given to US military veterans, surviving CSA blacks, immigrants from nations considered friendly, and other Americans. Eventually they'll be readmitted into the Union at some point.
 
I think the US will inevitably ethnicly cleanse the border states both to provide security (Even if a new Confederate state forms any new hypothetical attack North now starts a couple hundred more miles south. That and dealing with a Confederate insurgency in say five or six states is going to be easier then trying to fight an insurgency in like what 16 states?

I agree reabsorbing the former Confederate states as actual US States is going to be more or less impossible (At least while keeping the white former Confederate population in place and being able to vote). But the former CSA isn't going to be independent again any time soon. I think the US will heavily ethnically cleanse the border States (Tennessee, Virginia perhaps North Carolina, Oklahoma, maybe Kentucky, Arkansas, maybe one or two of the OTL Mexican Confederate states, and maybe parts of Louisiana). Baja California also probably get's seized from Mexico (That way the US doesn't have to worry about defending South California). Confederate Cuba might get independence/become a protectorate of the US with the US retaining basing rights.

Most of the rest of the former CSA will become something like a cross between Morgenthau plan Germany, the OTL Palestinian territories, and Indian reservations. Horrible horrible places to live for the White Confederate populace. Pretty much all of the CSA's former heavy (and most of it's non agricultural light industry) will be destroyed or dismantled and sent to the US with existing heavy industry in the ethnically cleansed states being immediately repurposed. Bans will be put in place on building any new heavy industry in the former Confederate Occupied Territories. The ports in the former Confederate occupied territories will be administered by the US. Their would be a heavy US military presence throughout the Occupied territories. There would be a ban on any sort of Confederate military and limitations on things like Police armament and numbers. I imagine just like OTL with former German and Japanese soldiers the former Confederate POWs will be held for at least a couple of years both for free labor as reparations and to limit the inevitable insurgency. Perhaps former CSA soldiers end up providing at least part of the labor for building a Panama/Nicaragua canal. Also of course heavy reparations on the Confederate Occupied Territories.

All in all a lot of war crimes/ crimes against humanities and the non ethnically cleansed CSA states will be incredibly terrible places to live and their will be massive suffering.

The ethnicly cleansed states get something along the lines of a "Homestead Act" with allotments of land given to US military veterans, surviving CSA blacks, immigrants from nations considered friendly, and other Americans. Eventually they'll be readmitted into the Union at some point.

This.
Exactly this.
 
Anyone else feel like the US would have annexed Baja California from Mexico after the FGW? Doing so doesn't necessarily add much in the way of resources for the US (though it does make a theoretical blockade or raiding off the Pacific coast of Mexico easier) but does eliminate the need to potentially defend Southern California (and especially the USN's main base on the Pacific Coast in San Diego which is only a handful of miles from the Mexican border) and free up US ground forces for elsewhere. There was a pretty small Mexican population of Baja at the time so it doesn't add too many hostile locals and secures the USN's largest Pacific base.

For the defeated Mexicans it's not really that important in an economic or industrial way so it's an easy give away at the Peace Table.

And after annexing it would the US keep calling it "Baja California" or rename it after some famous US figure or something.
 
I think the US will inevitably ethnicly cleanse the border states both to provide security (Even if a new Confederate state forms any new hypothetical attack North now starts a couple hundred more miles south. That and dealing with a Confederate insurgency in say five or six states is going to be easier then trying to fight an insurgency in like what 16 states?

I agree reabsorbing the former Confederate states as actual US States is going to be more or less impossible (At least while keeping the white former Confederate population in place and being able to vote). But the former CSA isn't going to be independent again any time soon. I think the US will heavily ethnically cleanse the border States (Tennessee, Virginia perhaps North Carolina, Oklahoma, maybe Kentucky, Arkansas, maybe one or two of the OTL Mexican Confederate states, and maybe parts of Louisiana). Baja California also probably get's seized from Mexico (That way the US doesn't have to worry about defending South California). Confederate Cuba might get independence/become a protectorate of the US with the US retaining basing rights.

Most of the rest of the former CSA will become something like a cross between Morgenthau plan Germany, the OTL Palestinian territories, and Indian reservations. Horrible horrible places to live for the White Confederate populace. Pretty much all of the CSA's former heavy (and most of it's non agricultural light industry) will be destroyed or dismantled and sent to the US with existing heavy industry in the ethnically cleansed states being immediately repurposed. Bans will be put in place on building any new heavy industry in the former Confederate Occupied Territories. The ports in the former Confederate occupied territories will be administered by the US. Their would be a heavy US military presence throughout the Occupied territories. There would be a ban on any sort of Confederate military and limitations on things like Police armament and numbers. I imagine just like OTL with former German and Japanese soldiers the former Confederate POWs will be held for at least a couple of years both for free labor as reparations and to limit the inevitable insurgency. Perhaps former CSA soldiers end up providing at least part of the labor for building a Panama/Nicaragua canal. Also of course heavy reparations on the Confederate Occupied Territories.

All in all a lot of war crimes/ crimes against humanities and the non ethnically cleansed CSA states will be incredibly terrible places to live and their will be massive suffering.

The ethnicly cleansed states get something along the lines of a "Homestead Act" with allotments of land given to US military veterans, surviving CSA blacks, immigrants from nations considered friendly, and other Americans. Eventually they'll be readmitted into the Union at some point.
There would be massive backlash against the ethnic cleansing in both the North and South plus the rest of the world and would take tons of resources away from reconstructing the Union. The best bet would to take OTL Confederacy (minus Texas) and divide it into an Eastern and Western country along the lines of the Morgenthau Plan. Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, and Virginia in the East, and Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Tennessee in the West. The other non-Texas states (Chihuahua, Cuba, Houston, Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Sonora) could be annexed with relative ease. While the USA may not want to have the CSA be independent, it has a much bigger and more rebellious population than Canada which means it will be much tougher and more expensive to hold down than Canada as well. And regarding all the Caribbean territories the US has annexed, why would the black majority in that region want to share a country with the same people who committed one of the worst genocides ITTL’s history? With all that considered, a Morgenthau-style East and West divide where both become US puppet states that are heavily dependent on the Union is the best option IMO.
 
There would be massive backlash against the ethnic cleansing in both the North and South plus the rest of the world and would take tons of resources away from reconstructing the Union. The best bet would to take OTL Confederacy (minus Texas) and divide it into an Eastern and Western country along the lines of the Morgenthau Plan. Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, and Virginia in the East, and Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Tennessee in the West. The other non-Texas states (Chihuahua, Cuba, Houston, Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Sonora) could be annexed with relative ease. While the USA may not want to have the CSA be independent, it has a much bigger and more rebellious population than Canada which means it will be much tougher and more expensive to hold down than Canada as well. And regarding all the Caribbean territories the US has annexed, why would the black majority in that region want to share a country with the same people who committed one of the worst genocides ITTL’s history? With all that considered, a Morgenthau-style East and West divide where both become US puppet states that are heavily dependent on the Union is the best option IMO.
As much as the CSA might deserve something like ethnic cleansing being visited upon it for all it did during the Destruction and the Second Great War doing so would cause more problems for the USA than it would solve. A Morgenthau type plan for the CSA is sufficiently harsh-the CSA's white population deserves a consequence above and beyond the war dead they received from a war they started but doesnt lower the USA nearly to the level of the Freedomites at the same time.
 
I would assume not- given Turtledove's parallelism, at least Romania would've joined the war.
However, since the FGW ended in mid-1917, there might not have been time for Greece to join.
Yeah but Greece was forced to join the war against their will by the Entente in an act of desperation, perhaps the entente would still have forced Greece to enter their side in TL191 anyways.
 
SL 1962.png

Here's a map of North America for a TL-191 Wolfenstein scenario (which I did make a ITTL version of the game here.)
In Snake's Lair, the POD was when the Confederates during their Invasion of Haiti would find an African Secret Society and more importantly, their technology, in which Featherston's Confederacy would reverse engineer that technology and integrating them into their war machine. Using their new weapons, Featherston's Confederacy was first able to defeat and destroy their Northern Enemy, then conquer the rest of the Americas, then defeat Germany and conquer Europe, then the rest of the world. In which, the Freedomites would turn the world into a totalitarian nightmare for anybody who dares resist them, but an old enemy however would return from his coma and dares to take on the Featherston's World Empire.

1. Following's catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Confederates at both Pittsburgh and later Philadelphia, the CSA would reduce it's former rival into a small rump a sixth of it's former size. Here, the remnants of the Federal Government always do the bidding of their Southern Masters.
2. Following the defeat of the USA, the CSA would help the Mormon Rebels to form their own theocratic nation state, the Independent Holy Republic of Deseret.
3. The Confederate Armed Forces have transformed the former Yankee state of Nevada into the world's largest proving ground and prison complex, which the residents of the latter are often used as hapless test subjects.
4. In Nicaragua, the Featherston Regime have undertook an extensive project here to construct a canal that would enable ships to transit from the Atlantic to the Pacific, though at the expense of the locals laboring here.
5. The Confederates would force their Mexican Puppet to hand over Baja California.
6. After wiping out the local Haitian population, Richmond would allow their Dominican puppet to annex the rest of Hispaniola.
7. In a deal with the Canadians, the Confederates would make both the Queen Charlotte Islands and the St. John's region of Newfoundland under Confederate Military Control.
8. In the late 1940s, the Confederates would betray one of their chief allies, the Russians over Alaska and Eastern Europe, after winning that conflict, the Confederates would award Russian America to the Canadians in exchange for the Queen Charlotte Islands and St. John's.
9. The Canadian controlled regions of what was once part of the USA have become a total hellhole for the local Yankee residents living there, where the Canadians have committed everything from confiscation of property, to forced labor, and even in many cases, outright ethnic cleansing and genocide.
 
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Here's a map of North America for a TL-191 Wolfenstein scenario (which I did make a ITTL version of the game here.)
In Snake's Lair, the POD was when the Confederates during their Invasion of Haiti would find an African Secret Society and more importantly, their technology, in which Featherston's Confederacy would reverse engineer that technology and integrating them into their war machine. Using their new weapons, Featherston's Confederacy was first able to defeat and destroy their Northern Enemy, then conquer the rest of the Americas, then defeat Germany and conquer Europe, then the rest of the world. In which, the Freedomites would turn the world into a totalitarian nightmare for anybody who dares resist them, but an old enemy however would return from his coma and dares to take on the Featherston's World Empire.

1. Following's catastrophic defeat at the hands of the Confederates at both Pittsburgh and later Philadelphia, the CSA would reduce it's former rival into a small rump a sixth of it's former size. Here, the remnants of the Federal Government always do the bidding of their Southern Masters.
2. Following the defeat of the USA, the CSA would help the Mormon Rebels to form their own theocratic nation state, the Independent Holy Republic of Deseret.
3. The Confederate Armed Forces have transformed the former Yankee state of Nevada into the world's largest proving ground and prison complex, which the residents of the latter are often used as hapless test subjects.
4. In Nicaragua, the Featherston Regime have undertook an extensive project here to construct a canal that would enable ships to transit from the Atlantic to the Pacific, though at the expense of the locals laboring here.
5. The Confederates would force their Mexican Puppet to hand over Baja California.
6. After wiping out the local Haitian population, Richmond would allow their Dominican puppet to annex the rest of Hispaniola.
7. In a deal with the Canadians, the Confederates would make both the Queen Charlotte Islands and the St. John's region of Newfoundland under Confederate Military Control.
8. In the late 1940s, the Confederates would betray one of their chief allies, the Russians over Alaska and Eastern Europe, after winning that conflict, the Confederates would award Russian America to the Canadians in exchange for the Queen Charlotte Islands and St. John's.
9. The Canadian controlled regions of what was once part of the USA have become a total hellhole for the local Yankee residents living there, where the Canadians have committed everything from confiscation of property, to forced labor, and even in many cases, outright ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Dare I ask what have the Confederates done to Central and South America and Africa ?
 
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