TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

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    Except...this isn't OTL. :p The Ottoman empire will most likely modernize along with the rest of the world, perhaps slower (something I might see, if not for much more than all of the different groups in her boundaries) or faster, considering as how the entire Arabian peninsula is unified at this point.

    The Ottoman empire is also pretty much a constitutional monarchy (if it wasn't in OTL, it probably is right about now anyway), so while some parts of it may be under Shariah law, it is unlikely for too much of it to seep in, I'd think. It's also entirely possible that, over time, the Ottoman empire may start to westernize, or at least being more open to such things (though this more depends on the sultans in Istanbul than anything else), so a modernization is far less likely to be hostile or whatnot, I'd posture.

    I'd say it's very likely that, in the future, the Ottoman empire is going to be a very powerful nation, especially when one of the larger powers collapses and leaves a vacuum for a new superpower niche...(probably similar to how China is rapidly replacing the former Soviet Union as the U.S.'s 'main' competition).
     
  2. LordInsane Supporter of the Alliance

    Uhm... you don't know that much about the Ottoman Empire, do you?
    The Ottoman Empire's sharia was *far* from Saudi Arabia's. For one thing, the Empire's Islam wasn't of a highly fundamentalistic, even extremist branch.
    And no, they didn't have Sharia as the main basis for their society. Sure, Islam was important, and the Empire was based on it (the Caliphate, see?), but they weren't extreme, and they were tolerant towards other religions, at least the other Abrahamitic religions.

    And why, why would they become more radical and extreme by winning a war, and gaining that long-sought after room to breathe?
     
  3. LordInsane Supporter of the Alliance

    It was in OTL.
    Sharia is a complex thing. Without the fall of the Empire, it's likely to continue to evolve into a more modern form.
     
  4. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

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    Because, just like the 'obligatory Caliphate' rule, it may be its own stereotype to have now the 'obligatory fascist Muslims' rule? :rolleyes: I concur though: the Ottoman empire is most likely going to be far different than our Middle East, maybe even cracking down on the more insane members of its major religion (if this is so, it'll lead to nothing but good, obviously). The Ottomans are going to be sitting on one of the world's largest oil spots: something Western nations will begin to covet at some point in the future, and she's going to have every opportunity to court any one of them (or more than one) she wishes to. The Ottoman empire has lasted, thus far (in this continuation TL), 662 years. There's no reason she can't last even more than that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  5. LordInsane Supporter of the Alliance

    Well, we already have the Caliphate: the Ottoman Empire;).

    And they probably would crack down, to a degree, at least. From what I've heard, they rather disliked Wahabhism, and that strain is rather extreme. At the very least, we won't gain oil-money being used to fund Wahabhi mosques all over the world:rolleyes:.
     
  6. Agentdark Silent King

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    I could eventually see Japan, AH, Ottomans, Brazil and Russia getting the bomb, even with US and German presure.
     
  7. Redem Proud citizen of her majesty

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    Sure going to be one fun Powderkeg to live in :D
     
  8. Snarf Sentient Basset Hound

    I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Mexico didn't try to take both Guatemala (a former Mexican state) and Honduras at some point. And the Belizeans have got to be hating life right now...they aren't terribly fond of Guatemala and would probably be open to the USA or Mexico ridding them of their problem.
     
  9. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

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    Well, we managed fine with Stalin and Mao having their finger on the button.
     
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  10. Roberto FREE SUSAN O.

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    I doubt that Mexico, which has been constantly nibbled away at, has the US sitting on it, and generally is just as instable as it was OTL could succesfully invade and annex two countries with terrain perfect for guerilla wars... I'd be surprised if the idea was even seriously proposed.

    As for to Belizeans, I'd think that the US would just have them independent, less friction for a potential conflict in CA.
     
  11. alt_historian Has returned... again

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    It's Alphabet Buffet! :D
     
  12. jmberry Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the 1950s candidates, I feel Estes Kefauver would be more believable as the Socialists' candidate than Stevenson and Harriman.
     
  13. Youdontwanttoknow Anti-Human

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    I dont see Russia or Japan being able to keep a full fledged war going until 1951... but okay.

    All sounds good, but I think the occupation of France will be the occupation of the entire French nation.. I also think that some of the countries you have seperarted from Russia probably should be either expanded upon or some of them replaced/changed.

    I can see some of this going to Japan, I think places like Burma will be fought for however (Burma does open the door to British India after all)

    Yep see this happening easily.

    Fair enough but why OSS? Knowing Turtledove it would be more likely to be the CIA.

    Why didnt the USA just remove the Emperor of Mexico in the peace settlement between the US and Mexico at the end of the Second Great War? This would make more sense.

    It will be interesting to see the results in this, but I think that South Africa will become the international pariah once again under this scenario.

    All good, except for the fact that the Moromons were to be excluded from the big island and kept to the minor islands of Hawai'i, so they couldn't interfere with the US military installations of the island chain as easily.

    I still don't see this happening. The whites of the US still dont want blacks there, they just feel bad that they were killed.... I would think more something like a black republic would be set up for survivors instead.

    I can see something along these lines happening, but as the Indian National Congress was quite strong in OTL, and I would assume in this one as well, I dont think we would see such a fracturing occuring, perhaps two or three nations tops! Also Burma would be more likely to be a Siamese puppet state, with Japanese support.

    Fair enough, although perhaps a bit of a stretch...

    Too soon, I would think that these provinces would be more likely established as US States in the 1980sish (after some 70 years of occupation) and more so in a Socialist administatrion then a Democratic one..... (Flora Hamburger has a passage in either Blood and Iron or Breakthroughs that states the reason why Canadian provinces would be just occupied while Kentucky and Houston would be US States, nothing has really changed on that score by In at the Death)

    It would be more likely that its just annexed onto California itself, instead of remaining a seperate territory.

    While the Cuban people were anti-Freedom Party there were pro-Confederate for the most part... Once again I feel this is just too soon.

    While I see Alaska falling easily, especially with an ongoing Russo-Japanese War, I cant see the United States invading so soon after the Second Great War, unless somehow provoked either by Japan or Russia into doing so....

    Fair enough, just surprised it took 5 years to happen.

    Would of been great if you could include a quote from an OTL speech along the way.... Perhaps instead of a 'Iron Curtain accross Europe' have a 'Bamboo Curtain across Asia' (in reference to Japan).....

    Considering people had been talking about this since the War of Secession, I am surprised the US would wait another 6 years to begin this....

    Fair enough, although perhaps the Caribean would become an overseas dependency instead?

    I can see this happening, eventually.

    I can see this happening, however I fear that several Confederate scientists wont be breathing at this point.... for examply FitzBelmont and the plan starting to form in the mind of General Abell of the General Staff

    Yeah I see this happening.

    What does this do to Austria?

    Fair enough.

    Will this lead to great US-German friction?

    Not Truman!!!!

    The Non-Aligned Movement strikes again eh?

    I dont see a Britain struggling would grant independence to their

    Read above about too soon.

    Can see this happening...

    All good, except for the fact that there should be no Mexican coup.

    I am surprised Japan doesnt already have it... After all the CSA was able to do so in the midst of a war, and Japan was at war until 1951 according to this...
     
  14. black angel Gay-Jew

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    so when's the next part coming out?
     
  15. Euroman26 Master of Science

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    What ethnic tensions in balkans after the second great war?

    How will the Ottomans handle that?

    Islamo Extremism is Parkistan??

    Chinese nationalism?

    How will Japan handle that??

    /Fred
     
  16. Sean Mulligan Banned

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    Kefauver wouldn't work since he was from Tennesee.
     
  17. candyman82 Future Patient

    Weren't Tennessee, Kentucky, and Houston readmitted in the Grapple?
     
  18. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

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    Same as always, I'd imagine: extremely fragile and could blow up at any moment. I'm pretty sure that's what makes a 'Confederation of Eastern Europe' a that much nicer idea for Austria-Hungary then on-and-off guerrilla warfare from time to time. Remember how bad it was for the Americans with the Mormons in Utah? It'll be about a hundred times worse for a place like Austria-Hungary: they need to start attempting to appease such groups or they're going to collapse.

    Presuambly, the Ottomans won't care one way or another unless they can gain something from it. Even if they did, they realize how much of a quagmire they'd be in if they tried to declare power over the Balkan people (they'd already tried ruling the area in the past...it didn't work out so well for them).

    As for Muslim fascism...we've already had this chat: I think it about as likely as the possible rise of Communism in this world - possible, but highly unlikely. As LordInsane has said, they seem to despise such strains of Islam and will probably try to stamp them out somewhat.

    Highly likely at this point, or at least some future conflict with Japan is probably looming on the horizon for the Empire of Japan and the Chinese Empire. China is probably worried about losing even more ground to the Japanese than they already are (as Hainan Island was a part of China proper, they could see it as the next stepping stone to getting on Chinese mainland). After all, they already have Hong Kong too here, I believe, so...I'd think maybe it will be analogous to either the Korean War or the Vietnam War, U.S.A. involvement or not.

    Probably like how the U.S. attempted to 'contain' the Reds in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Korea, and Cuba: by attempting to defeat them through armed conflict by invading the nation. I might be downplaying how strategically savvy the Japanese may prove to be however, as any fight with China is probably going to win with a Chinese victory if definite offensive actions against them are taken...
     
  19. alt_historian Has returned... again

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    Maybe so... but I doubt any former-Confederate States... um, states, will be trusted for some time to come. What with, you know, having fought four wars in 80 years, and the whole nuking thing.
     
  20. Constantinople Trump is Temporary, but hey, Brexit is forever Banned

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    How is the republican party doing? I always thought it would have a small revival of sorts eventually.