TL-191: After the End

I don't think this was mentioned in the books, but does the US still have Star-spangled Banner as its anthem or is it Battle Hymn of the Republic instead?
 
Something for wide speculation here: What the statuses of the following Canadian and American fascists/potential collaborators?
--Adrien Arcand (Founder of the Quebec-based National Unity Party. Will it become a French-leaning actionist party ITTL as a result of the Jewish schools controversy?)
--George W. Christians (Founder and Leader of the Crusader White Shirts)
--Chuck Crate (Founder of the Canadian Union of Fascists)
--Fr. Francis Coughlin (Canadian nationalist and rebellion leader in GW2? His leanings would have a different start by being ordained during GW1.)
--Robert Edward Edmundson (Made Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy claims of control over FDR and the US government.)
--Elizabeth Dilling (Right-wing activist tried for her anti-Semitic, staunch anti-communist, and isolationist views during WWII.)
--William Dudley Pelley (The most speculated, and a very likely one as the most infamous seditionist of OTL during WWII.)
--Virgil Effinger (Leader of the Black Legion in Ohio, an offshoot of the KKK.)
--Ezra Pound (Would he instead write about travels across the CSA and Actionist Europe?)
--Gerald L.K. Smith (Unlike Huey Long, Smith was convincingly a fascist who blended Christian nationalism in his rhetoric.)
--George Van Horn Moseley (One speculated in Filling the Gaps for his overtly racist rhetoric as an TL-191 expy of Andrei Vlasov.)
--Gerald Burton Winrod (Pushed a rabid, anti-Semitic variant of early Christian fundamentalism IOTL out in Kansas.)

For my replies, I’m writing with the caveat that this is not what Turtledove himself envisioned, but is the case in TTL.

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The analogue to Ezra Pound in TTL was Loomis Pound, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Unlike in our world, Pound’s family did not move to the East Coast. He grew up in Hailey, in the territory and later state of Idaho, and eventually found work in the lumber industry.

Pound’s generation was among the first in modern US history to be subject to regular conscription. He was drafted into the US Army in 1904, and was killed during a training accident in 1905.

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The analogue in TTL to Elizabeth Dilling was Eloise Kirkpatrick, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As with her counterpart from our world, Eloise Kirkpatrick received a university education in music. She died of the flu during the global pandemic in 1918.

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The analogue in TTL to George Christians was William Christians, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US Army in 1914 after the outbreak of the First Great War. He was killed in combat on the Roanoke Front in 1915.

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The analogue to Robert Edmondson in TTL was Edward Edmondson, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Edmondson in TTL also found work as a journalist, though it was in Chicago instead of Cincinnati or New York City as in our world. He died from food poisoning after eating at a restaurant in Chicago in 1906.

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Chuck Crate doesn’t exist in TTL.

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The analogue in TTL to Gerald Winrod was Burton Winrod, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US Army not long after the end of the First Great War. He was among the first postwar deployment of US soldiers to Occupied Canada. He was killed in an ambush by Canadian rebels near Banff in 1920.

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The analogue in TTL to Virgil Effinger, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Effinger was among the first generation of US citizens who were subject to conscription, and was later an enthusiastic member of the Soldiers’ Circle movement in Ohio. He suffered a nervous breakdown in 1910, and was forcibly institutionalized. He died in 1942 while still institutionalized, during the Confederate occupation of Ohio.

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The analogue in TTL to Gerald Smith, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US Army in 1916. He died during basic training after suffering from nephritis.

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The analogue in TTL to William Dudley Pelley was Apsey Pelley, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US military at the outbreak of the First Great War in 1914. He served in the US Navy, and was killed during the Battle of the Three Navies in 1916.

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The analogue in TTL to Charles Coughlin was Edward Coughlin, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Coughlin, because of the hardships of the First Great War and the fall of Canada to US forces in 1916, never became a Catholic priest, and eventually found work as a laborer and construction worker in Hamilton, Ontario.

Coughlin was murdered by Canadian rebels during the First Canadian Uprising in 1924, because of false rumors that he supported the US military occupation.

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The analogue in TTL to Adrien Arcand, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He survived the First Great War in Montreal. Arcand did not welcome the establishment of the Republic of Quebec, because of his anti-US views, and because he was opposed to a Québécois nation with a republican system of government. In 1930, Arcand, after working for several years in Montreal as a journalist, started a newspaper, Fleur-de-lis, which openly called for overthrowing the government of Quebec and going under the rule of the royal dynasty established in France by the Action française regime. The newspaper was also used to promote Arcand’s anti-US and antisemitic worldview. In 1928, Arcand was arrested after being accused of high treason under the Republic of Quebec’s Defense of the State Act, and his newspaper was closed.

Arcand died in prison from tuberculosis while awaiting trial in 1931.

In the late 1990s, archival evidence studied by a team of Québécois and US historians confirmed that Arcand, as well as other anti-government Québécois writers and public intellectuals, had accepted funding from the Action française regime in the 1930s.

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George Van Horn Mosley, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As in our world, Mosley joined the US military, and was initially commissioned as a second lieutenant after graduating from the United States Military Academy. By the outbreak of the First Great War in 1914, Mosley had been promoted to the rank of captain. He died in 1915 from the effects of a staph infection while on the Kentucky Front.
 
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For my replies, I’m writing with the caveat that this is not what Turtledove himself envisioned, but is the case in TTL.

-
The analogue to Ezra Pound in TTL was Loomis Pound, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Unlike in our world, Pound’s family did not move to the East Coast. He grew up in Hailey, in the territory and later state of Idaho, and eventually found work in the lumber industry.

Pound’s generation was among the first in modern US history to be subject to regular conscription. He was drafted into the US Army in 1904, and was killed during a training accident in 1905.

-
The analogue in TTL to Elizabeth Dilling was Eloise Kirkpatrick, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As with her counterpart from our world, Eloise Kirkpatrick received a university education in music. She died of the flu during the global pandemic in 1918.

-
The analogue in TTL to George Christians was William Christians, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US Army in 1914 after the outbreak of the First Great War. He was killed in combat on the Roanoke Front in 1915.

-
The analogue to Robert Edmondson in TTL was Edward Edmondson, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Edmondson in TTL also found work as a journalist, though it was in Chicago instead of Cincinnati or New York City as in our world. He died from food poisoning after eating at a restaurant in Chicago in 1906.

-
Chuck Crate doesn’t exist in TTL.

-
The analogue in TTL to Gerald Winrod was Burton Winrod, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US Army not long after the end of the First Great War. He was among the first postwar deployment of US soldiers to Occupied Canada. He was killed in an ambush by Canadian rebels near Banff in 1920.

-
The analogue in TTL to Virgil Effinger, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Effinger was among the first generation of US citizens who were subject to conscription, and was later an enthusiastic member of the Soldiers’ Circle movement in Ohio. He suffered a nervous breakdown in 1910, and was forcibly institutionalized. He died in 1942 while still institutionalized, during the Confederate occupation of Ohio.

-
The analogue in TTL to Gerald Smith, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US Army in 1916. He died during basic training after suffering from nephritis.

-
The analogue in TTL to William Dudley Pelley was Apsey Pelley, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He was drafted into the US military at the outbreak of the First Great War in 1914. He served in the US Navy, and was killed during the Battle of the Three Navies in 1916.

-
The analogue in TTL to Charles Coughlin was Edward Coughlin, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Coughlin, because of the hardships of the First Great War and the fall of Canada to US forces in 1916, never became a Catholic priest, and eventually found work as a laborer and construction worker in Hamilton, Ontario.

Coughlin was murdered by Canadian rebels during the First Canadian Uprising in 1924, because of false rumors that he supported the US military occupation.

-
The analogue in TTL to Adrien Arcand, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He survived the First Great War in Montreal. Arcand did not welcome the establishment of the Republic of Quebec, because of his anti-US views, and because he was opposed to a Québécois nation with a republican system of government. In 1930, Arcand, after working for several years in Montreal as a journalist, started a newspaper, Fleur-de-lis, which openly called for overthrowing the government of Quebec and going under the rule of the royal dynasty established in France by the Action française regime. The newspaper was also used to promote Arcand’s anti-US and antisemitic worldview. In 1928, Arcand was arrested after being accused of high treason under the Republic of Quebec’s Defense of the State Act, and his newspaper was closed.

Arcand died in prison from tuberculosis while awaiting trial in 1931.

In the late 1990s, archival evidence studied by a team of Québécois and US historians confirmed that Arcand, as well as other anti-government Québécois writers and public intellectuals, had accepted funding from the Action française regime in the 1930s.

-
George Van Horn Mosley, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As in our world, Mosley joined the US military, and was initially commissioned as a second lieutenant after graduating from the United States Military Academy. By the outbreak of the First Great War in 1914, Mosley had been promoted to the rank of captain. He died in 1915 from the effects of a staph infection while on the Kentucky Front.
Thanks! Everyone here dies a very early death; Arcand is the only one that come close to being impactful.
 
Do you think the people of the South should have stigma of being traitors and not to "True Americans"?

Like even if they are integrated and considered the US citizens wouldn't they still be people who dislike them for the CSA wrongdoings and their ancestors that got suffer wars with it?

Would there still be some discrimination against Southerners in the US?
 
How is the CDS, and later OTO, structured? Like our NATO?

By 2022, there are broad similarities between the ways in which the CDS is structured in TTL and the ways in which NATO is structured in our world.

The CDS is headquartered in New York City, and is governed through the Allied Defense Council. The CDS is led by a Director General who serves for renewable five year terms. The CDS is divided between several regional commands.

The USA is by far the strongest member of the CDS, although effective military action depends on the agreement of all countries in the alliance.

Every country in the CDS is required to contribute to the alliance’s collective defense. One of the hallmarks of the CDS are the numerous combined land-air-sea bases built across the alliance outside of the USA.

By 2022, the most recent war involving the CDS was the Sudanese War in the early 2010s. South Sudan and Darfur, which both gained independence as a result of this conflict, are the most recent additions to the CDS.

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By 2162, the Oceanic Treaty Organization is broadly similar in structure to the CDS, although strategic decision making in OTO is dominated by the “Big Four” of the alliance: China, Russia, Brazil, and the United States.
 
By 2022, there are broad similarities between the ways in which the CDS is structured in TTL and the ways in which NATO is structured in our world.

The CDS is headquartered in New York City, and is governed through the Allied Defense Council. The CDS is led by a Director General who serves for renewable five year terms. The CDS is divided between several regional commands.

The USA is by far the strongest member of the CDS, although effective military action depends on the agreement of all countries in the alliance.

Every country in the CDS is required to contribute to the alliance’s collective defense. One of the hallmarks of the CDS are the numerous combined land-air-sea bases built across the alliance outside of the USA.

By 2022, the most recent war involving the CDS was the Sudanese War in the early 2010s. South Sudan and Darfur, which both gained independence as a result of this conflict, are the most recent additions to the CDS.

-
By 2162, the Oceanic Treaty Organization is broadly similar in structure to the CDS, although strategic decision making in OTO is dominated by the “Big Four” of the alliance: China, Russia, Brazil, and the United States.
Is there an integrated command structure for members’ armed forces like there is for NATO?
 
Is Cassius Madison still alive as of 2022?

Cassius Madison passes away in 2019 from natural causes. He is given a state funeral.

The monument to Cassius Madison on the National Mall is officially unveiled in 2027. It is a statue of Madison rendered in the American Heroic style, and shows him raising his rifle against an unseen Jake Featherston.
 
Since the first is butterflied away as a result of never meeting his lover, what becomes of Bajazid Elmaz Doda ITTL?

The analogue to Bajazid Elmaz Doda, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Unlike in our world, Doda moved to the Austro-Hungarian Empire for work, instead of Romania. Doda spent the rest of his life working in a number of trades throughout the Balkan territories of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. He died in 1955 while helping to build a road in Podgorica.
 
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Do you think the people of the South should have stigma of being traitors and not to "True Americans"?

Like even if they are integrated and considered the US citizens wouldn't they still be people who dislike them for the CSA wrongdoings and their ancestors that got suffer wars with it?

Would there still be some discrimination against Southerners in the US?

By 2022, there isn’t legal discrimination against people from the Midsouth, or other regions that were once part of the CSA.

The USA was not free of prejudice against people from the Midsouth since the end of the Second Great War. This was a legacy of the four North American Wars, and the Second Great War in particular: the US public never forgot Operation Blackbeard, the Battle of Pittsburgh, the CS nuclear attack against Philadelphia, or the Destruction.

The issue of regional prejudice in the rest of the United States against those from the Midsouth became more acute in the 1980s and 1990s, as large numbers of people began to leave the Midsouth for other regions of the country. This was the wave of internal migration that led to the establishment of numerous Dixieland enclaves in large US cities. While there was no legal discrimination against arrivals from the Midsouth in any of the areas that they moved to, the initial reactions from locals often was not hospitable.

The presence of what became known as Roundhead gangs in many Dixielands, as well as the presence of different Dixie Mafia outfits, was another source of tension between locals and migrants from the Midsouth in different US cities in the 1980s, 1990s, and into the early 21st Century. This was in spite of the fact that neither Roundhead gangs or the Dixie Mafia was representative of Midsouth migrants.

Most migrants from the Midsouth followed similar trajectories as the different immigrant communities: of full assimilation into wider US society.
 
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