Only real reference I recall of them was a new snippet sometime in the 30's that they were bombing cities in China.
TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
Only real reference I recall of them was a new snippet sometime in the 30's that they were bombing cities in China.
What about a 1969 Student uprising in Germany and maybe in their puppet states? Which is brutally put down by the German Millitary resulting in the Studentleaders having to Leave Western Europe??
Will the Socialdemocractic Union of North America give these Studentleaders political assylum?
Will the Socialdemocractic Union of North America give these Studentleaders political assylum?
It certainly exists (and is in fact on the political ascent as of 1961 thanks in part to the fallout from the Congo Affair). But any student protests wouldn't end in the participants getting expelled to the United States.
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Just a thought...
I was thinking...is there the possibility of Fidel Castro as the Socialist Governor of Cuba in TTL...?
I was thinking...is there the possibility of Fidel Castro as the Socialist Governor of Cuba in TTL...?
Castro won't have much of a political career in TTL. He'll spend some time in the Cuban legislature, before retiring to focus the bulk of his time on practicing law (and perhaps writing a lucrative memoir of his wartime experiences on the side).
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
I think Castro will instead go to Mexico. The Mexican Empire is a much more fertile field for a Communist Revolution, after all, they just lost a war, and the Socialists in the USA will just think Castro is just one more socialist just like them, so they won't attempt to stop him - until its too late of course. The much delayed Bolshevik Revolution might very well occur in Mexico with the overthrow of the Emperor, the Peasants will think they are fighting for their freedom, and of course Fidel will betray them just like he would have done in Cuba, except that the US government was too strong there for him to attempt it, but Mexico..., Mexico is fertile field for such an endeavor, and nobody will know what Communism is really all about until the first such revolution suceeds. So the Iron Curtain may fall on the Rio Grande.
In my TL, the Mexican Empire has already been dissolved (through a U.S.-sponsored coup).
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Even so, I don't think it will take Fidel long to see the USA as imperalists especially since he no longer has to worry about the CSA, and those poor Mexicans, even after they have their republic, will still need a scapegoat to blame all their troubles on and attribute it to "Yankee Imperialism" This greater USA which includes both Canada and the former CSA including three Mexican states that they have yet to give back to Mexico, makes a very convenient "bogey man" for communist revolutionaries to use as propaganda, and besides no one has really experienced a Communist government in this timeline, so at first the peasantry won't be as critical as they would otherwise be in our timeline's Mexico. Communist is not automatically associated with the loss of political freedom here, as most people are ignorant of what Communism and Fidel's movement in particular is really about - all they know is that he is some kind of socialist who fought the CSA and Jake Featherston and thats it. If Fidel tries to break cuba off of the USA, he will lose. If the USA can conquer the CSA and Canada, do you think a lone Cuba, which is a state, can suceed with its secession? I doubt it, because first Cuba would have to secede, and then it can have its Communist Revolution, the USA here won't see it as a seperate country and thus mind its own business as it does in out timeline, it will instead see Fidel trying to steal some of its territory much like the Confederates did, and they won't even give it a chance to happen. John F. Kennedy on the other hand gave Cuba some breathing space for its Communist revolution to succeed by calling off the Bay of Pigs invasion, but for him it was foreign policy, for the TL-191 timeline it amounts to preserving the Union and unfortunately for Fidel, that Union includes his Cuba.
If you've been reading through this, you'ld have noticed, Cuba is the only former CSA state to vote frequently socialist, so that would imply Castro fits in better in TTL, and has no reason to try and rebel.
although one wonder what happend to Che.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Knowing Fidel as I do, I'd say the American definition of "Socialist" is not Socialist enough for him. Fidel is after all a Communist, while fighting the CSA he of course found common cause with the US Government much as Stalin found common cause with the Western Allies when fighting the Nazis, but once the Nazis were defeated, Stalin needed a new enemy so he looked at those same Western Allies that helped him against Hitler as the new enemy, and I have a feeling that Fidel Castro will do the same. Karl Marx and Lenin did exist in this timeline as well, although there is no Soviet Union, one can still use their example to inspire further revolutions which may suceed, and lets face it, the "Socialists" in this timeline's America are basically Democrats under the lable of "Socialism" FDR isn't that different, and many of the Democrats in our timeline are "Socialists" in TL-191 and it isn't because their philosophy is any different, but that the philosopies of the two main parties are different. Socialism is something comparable to what a Democrat was in the 1940s and 1950s, although these days our Democrats are trending a lot closer to socialism than they used to. Communists they are not however, the sort of communism that existed in the Soviet Union hasn't been tried here, and one result is that the people won't be as critical of it when Fidel proposes it, and in that way his revolution may succeed in getting him in power of some spanish speaking country - probably Mexico as that would make a good dramitic choice to give the USA some trouble along the southern border.
Just because someone does horrible things in our world doesn't automatically mean that they're horrible human beings in another TL.
Butterflies, butterflies, butterflies. Castro may still have some sort of Cuban nationalist flare in him, but I doubt it's gone beyond much of getting rid of the Freedom Party. It's been confirmed he'll live out the rest of his life in peace, probably as a Senator or maybe even a Governor. The U.S. Socialists also vary, if you've read the books, because there are Socialists mentioned that are very left-wing and arguably borderline Communist, it would seem. There are also moderate Socialists (Hosea Blackford being a big one). U.S. politics of OTL also have no bearing on TL-191, so really, all arguments comparing the Democrats of the '40s to '60s to TL-191's Socialist Party has no bearing.Tom Kalbfus
Banned
I think if Fidel is not a Communist, he is not Fidel but rather some other person. I figure if the timeline is similar enough that he keeps the same name, then other things will be similar too, like his political philosophy. Any Way FDR seems like FDR, Theodore Roosevelt seems much like Theodore Roosevelt, so for what specific reason should Fidel be different from our timeline? He has something going on in his head, and I believe he probably craves power as well, the only question is how he plans to achieve it.Just because someone does horrible things in our world doesn't automatically mean that they're horrible human beings in another TL.
I believe the TL-191 Socialist Party is our Democratic Party, I don't see much difference between the two, it may have started out as a real Socialist party, but once Lincoln and his disaffected Republicans joined it, it became an entirely different creature. The Conservatives that might have bolted to the Republican Party instead stayed with the Democratic Party, and those liberals in the Democratic Party might have found the Democrats too conservative for them and so they bolted towards the Socialist Party. Looking at Democrats in todays world, I have to conclude that they are Socialists Lite, they are not heavy central planners of the Stalinist mold, but they are a kind of socialist that believes in big government. I believe the TL-191 world has more truth in labeling of their political parties in the United States. The Democrats really believe in Democracy and the Socialists believe in Socialism - not in revolution necessarily, but they believe in the same stuff Obama believes in.
ah, so obviously, by your logic, the Ernie who ghost wrote 'How I sunk Roger Kimball' was not Ernest Hemmingway, Nathan Bedford Forest III was not him, just because he did not specialize in Fighter planes, and dispite having the name Joseph P. Kennedy Jr, it could not have been him, simply because he was part of the Airforce, rather than the Navy.
Butterflies. always remember Butterflies.
and incase you forgot, the, just because the have the same name, doesn't mean they have the same intrest as OTL, case and point, FDR never was intrested in become President, Robert Lansing, Who hated TR, is his SoS.
I think TL191 is missing the strong anti imperialist figure. Che might stay in Argentina and never take his illuminating motorcycle ride. However anther similar figure might still arise (my bet is on Alec Pomeroy).
Someone who will inspire people to fight against the status quo and for self determination.
He will inspire a Canadian rebellion then like Che move to inspire a more succesful one in the former Confederate States and then a failed one in a German African colony. He will become an aspiration and in the end, paradoxically, his portrait becomes an item of pop culture.
I really do not see the American Empire (and the German, and Japanese ones) staying that big for long.
For those who doubt a strong confederate rebellion you must consider that after 3 generations a half they have developed a completely different national identity and are therefore not Americans.
I would like to see some rebellions (even if unsuccessful) in this thread coming soon.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Oh, but they are, you see that's the thing about the CSA, the 'A' part of it stands for America, so Confederates do consider themselves to be Americans, the Canadians do not. The Canadians also do not have the direct guilt hanging over their heads about the black Holocaust as the Confederates do. I think the Southerners might tire of that, and so I think they'll push rather to become full and equal states in the United States rather than trying for independence again - the Canadians I think are a different story, what may happen is that a bunch of Americans might try to settle there and when some "Jimmy Carter" or perhaps Walter Mondale himself becomes President, he may try to make a peace offering out of the Canadian territories and the American settlers there might rebel at this.
I doubt the Confederates would like to see their homes nuked. I think the United States would react differently to a rebellion it sees in its own territory than to a rebellion in some other country. We allowed China and Vietnam to go communist, but some place like Texas? I don't think so. A rebellion in the United States would mean an automatic sending in of US troops to crush it. I think the US has bled too much to dare risk any part of the CSA from becoming independent again, however some place like Mexico would not bring in the US troops as there will be some people in the United States that will wonder whether what goes on in Mexico or some other country would be any of our business. Someone would have to tell the US army to stand down and let the Confederate Rebellion suceed, and I just don't see that - I doubt even a figure like Obama would allow for such a thing, especially Obama I think. I think you might have your usual Klan activity, some race riots, and other forms of unrest, but an actually sucessful rebellion in the South?
Canada might be a different story, some Jimmy Carter type might bargain it away in interests of establish a peace with great Britian.
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Why are you so convinced the USA would use Nukes to put down a attempted Rebellion?
that's like trying to kill a single Pig by lighting the forrest on fire, it's overkill, unessicary, and the drawbacks out weigh the benifits.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
I don't think the US would allow a Confederate Victory by quagmire or whatever, they'll use everything in their article including nukes to make sure the Confederates don't win, of course nukes are a last resort, but now that they got the place occupied, its hard for me to see a convincing argument for them to let them go their seperate way, and also I think some southerners have a conscious, they are probably haunted by the spectacle of those death camps, some people down south might wonder if a revived CSA was a good thing, if it means a return to the likes of Jake Featherston or somebody like him for instance. If they integrate with the USA and get their voting rights back, they can influence who gets elected President and pass laws with their congressmen and Senators. When you consider that Jake Featherston made a lot of Confederate citizens "disappear" without trial or jury, many would no doubt think they were better off under US rule. The Canadians on the otherhand are just occupied, they understand why, but now that the reason (the UK alliance with the CSA) is no longer valid, they probably want their independence even more, and probably want Quebec back as well, and some "mealy mouthed liberal" just might grant them what they want, think Jimmy Carter and the Panama Canal treaty for instance.