TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. EdM Well-Known Member

    Next Scene-

    (Same as for the O Suzannah! Chorus) The exterior of a columned plantation house in Tenessee. Yankee troops in green-gray uniforms and coal-scuttle helmets (German Wehrmacht in OTL) chase Rebel troops in butternut uniforms and english tin derbies from stage left to stage right. Rebel 1 and Rebel 2 pause, fire their rifles to stage left, and run beside the stage right side of the house. Rebel1 sits against the wall, Rebel 2 leans.

    Rebel1: Damn those Damnyankees! They routed us agin!
    Rebel2: If Richmond don't find a response to their massing of barrels we'll soon be on the Gulf Coast or in Charleston!
    Rebel 1: You got that right! (Gets up, looks around corner of house to stage left and fires his rifle)
    (A loud BOOM! from stage left)
    Rebel 1: Damn! Here come the barrels!
    Rebel 2: Let's make a run for it!
    (Rebel 1 and Rebel 2 run off and exit stage right, as more explosions echo off stage and shrapnel roll across stage floor from stage left to stage right)
     
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  2. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting. Hope to see more. :)
     
  3. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    Out of curiosity, what happens to Brazil?
     
  4. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    The Empire of Brazil, along with the Ottoman Empire, is a major power behind the Independence Movement. They also have their own network of puppet states in South America.
     
  5. Matt Wiser Well-Known Member

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    So who's the leading supplier of weapons to the various anticolonials? I could imagine a Japanese sub slipping into some remote cove in East Africa and offloading assault rifles, SMGs, RPGs, etc. to be used against the Germans.
     
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  6. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    ^I imagine the US might be trying to supply some anti-colonials in Asia against the Japanese.


    To the creator of this TL, please continue, I'm looking forward to a real Pacific War.;)
     
  7. Michael B Doomfarer

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    Any body could supply to anti-colonials in other empires. The question is whether the Japanese are going to deliberately wind up the Germans when they have the Russians and Americans breathing down their neck. Somehow I doubt it.

    Allowing for a few rogue elements and freelance idiots, the Japanese know that if they get in a war with the Germans the Americans will come in against them. On the other hand if they get in a war with the USA the Germans are very likely to sit it out. Thus I would expect them to be pragmatic and land their arms in Canada instead.
     
  8. Saladan Member

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    Apr 23, 2007
    I doubt any of the Major powers are trying anything anticolonial for several reasons.
    Germany and The US have no conflicting interests. Germany controls Europe and Africa. and the US North America and parts of Asia. Both understand each others spheres. So either messing with each other is out.

    Japan knows she's in a very dangerous situation to be messing with the other powers. She has managed to survive solely do to being less important then other matters. But now all the Great powers no longer have a major threat to worry about (excluding Germany and Russia). She got caught messing in Canada once before and I doubt she is dumb enough to try again since now the US dominates the CSA and Canada is now beginning to get comfortable under the Stars and stripes. Plus don't forget that Australia is a US ally now. Whats stopping them from helping the US in the event Japan gets uppity? And there's also Russia which doesn't have as bad a relationship with the US as it does Germany. Whats stopping them from getting revenge on Japan while she's slugging it out with America as well? Japan has got to know all this as well.

    So Japan I think is out. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose if they start trouble.

    Also dave should I update the map at all? it's on page 7 if you want to mess with it yourself.

    Germany and the US aren't going to mess with each other.

    Russia and the US aren't going to mess with each other.

    I'd say that the most likly to be starting trouble is the Ottoman's since they have puppet states bordering German african colonies and have the best ability to do something.
     
  9. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    What are Remembrance Day celebrations like now that 'vengeance' is complete?
    Or has the holiday taken on a more celebratory tone now?
     
  10. Michael B Doomfarer

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    The latter of course. Nothing like a good speech saying how it does not matter how much you knock down the good ole US of A, she will stand back up and sooner or later bury you.

    Of course Remembrance Day is not going to be popular in some states and in the great Republic of Texas everybody goes to work on that day. Instead they have a national holiday on March 6th.
     
  11. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

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    Hi, I new to these forums and I stumbled upon this timeline, and I must say it sounds really cool! I hope to see more of it =D

    I have a question, I was just thinking about the fact that, if it is 1961, how will the United States be observing the centennial of the War of Secession, that is to say they do? How about the former Confederacy?
     
  12. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    1961 is our social equivalent of 1881, that is its toward the end of the Reconstruction era. There may be a 1961 version of President Garfield, of course the equivalent of Republican in this timeline is Democrat, interestingly enough, there is a Republican - that is to say Democrat who may fit this bill Richard M. Nixon, a Democrat from California. Now what do you suppose the TL-191/1961 version of Richard M. Nixon is likley to be? The President immediately preceding him is likely to be a General, perhaps General Irving Morrel, the famed Union Barrel commander. So we have a Morrel Administration followed by the Nixon Administration. I feel the Socialist Party is going to have problems for a time, because it was due to its naivetivity that Jake Featherston got the jump on the United States, and its going to be a while before the American public trusts another Socialist just as in the situation immediately following the Civil War in our timeline. The equivalent of the "Wild West" would be in Canada, where you have settlers from both north and south settling old scores on the frontier. Canada would be a rough and tumble place with gunfights breaking out all the time, probably the occasional terrorist bomb going off as well. A lot of Canadians on the other hand would flee south, trying to get away from lawlessness on the frontier and all the bombs going off between ex-southerners, pro-Union people and Canadians still desiring independence. Unlike the more familiar post World War II America, this one would still be isolationist, it would tend to be preoccupied with settling the conflicts within its own territory.

    There would be no Cold War, both the Germans and the Americans realize the destructive potential of their new nuclear arsenals, but there is also very little incentive to build up their supply of nuclear weapons. I have a feeling that the TL-191 version of Dr. Werner von Braun will be very disappointed with this world's version of Germany. There are no communist countries anywhere, communism is still a glint in the radical's eye. Most of the revolutionary movements of the 20th century have been thoroughly suppressed, they are at most insurgents fighting an uphill battle, and the economy is growing quite nicely in the 1960s. Probably President Nixon even throws in a tax cut to boost growth a bit more. Nixon however is still Nixon, and is probably his own worst enemy. Perhaps something like the Watergate scandal will break in 1966 or perhaps 1967, this may propell Socialists into Congress in 1966 or 1968 or perhaps Nixon will be assasinated in 1963, and the World will never know about Watergate and its like. Nixon will then be seen as a tragic figure and maybe have an airport named after him. I think Nixon won't be assasinated though, instead he will be impeached, and he'll probably resign, leaving his Nelson Rockerfeller as the next President to finish his term in 1968 after pardoning the disgraced President Nixon. The next President may be Hubert Humphrey. Humphrey serves from 1969 to 1972, inflation ticks up a bit during his Administration. The organization called OPEC or something like it becomes powerful during this time, there is no Israel in this timeline, but the OPEC cartel members may still become greedy. The price of crude oil goes up, but there is no oil shock. I believe there may be some competition between Germany, the United States, and Japan for oil resources. American oil companies will probably still be operating in Arabia, slowly but surely Islamic Radical movements will build up their store of resentment against each of these powers and each of these powers may in turn try to fan this resentment in the direction of their compeditors

    I think the space race would never happen in the TL-191 world, missile development would be slower without ideological competition driving it. The Capitalist World, despite the American Socialist movement would be quite secure here. Still there would be people in Germany who would wish to unseat its emperor, there would be people who look to America and wonder why they can't elect their own government instead of having to live under a king. Probably in the late 1970s after a bought of Inflation, the Kaisar may be overthrown or forced to become a more Constitutional monarch with cerimonial powers. I think the world may see men walk on the Moon in 1999, this will be a more gradual development. Moonships will probably be constructed in orbit from a number of smaller rocket launches, I think cruise missiles and ramjets may provide a larger role in this.
     
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  13. CT23 Well-Known Member

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    Are we going to get to see Russia try to have another go at Germany in this timeline?

    I suspect if Russia made the first strike, the US would feel obligated to help Germany because of their long alliance.
     
  14. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    Only if Russia feels like committing suicide! Don't forget both sides have nuclear weapons, and both sides are ruled by monarchs. I don't think the Czar would like to see most of his cities blown of the map in a gambit to retake territory stolen by Germany, much like Mexico might like to get some of its territory back, but the United States has nuclear weapons. The potential downside loss exceeds potential gains from a war. From here on out, its going to be guerilla wars, insurgencies and so forth.

    No one will be willing to risk a massive full scale confrontation possibly involving nuclear weapons, it will mostly be saber rattling and conflict through proxies. Also the Czar and the Kaiser are of the same class, both would like to keep their thrones and both are keenly aware that their are groups, in both countries, which might want to take advantage of the chaos another world war would bring. The Czar would not want to give the Bolsheviks another shot with another revolution, and the Kaiser is aware that he rules over the homeland of Karl Marx, and that Germany has its own Bolshevik movement as well. I think the Kaiser would rather have the Russian Czar for a neighbor than someone like Lenin or Stalin, both of which existed in this timeline but were not very sucessful thus far.

    What the two powers might want to quibble over are periphery colonial possessions in Africa, Germany probably has a hold over former british colonies in North Africa, the Russians might want to set of the Islamic powder keg and encourage natives to overthrow their colonial overlords, knock Germany down a peg and then claim to have had nothing to do with it.
     
  15. Michael B Doomfarer

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    Only if they are ill advised. There are Muslims in Russia as well.
     
  16. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    But Germany occupies their Holy Land of Mecca from conquered British provinces, Russia does not. Muslims don't have any religious attachments to places in Russia like they do with Jerusalem and Mecca. Russia is on the periphery of the Muslim World while Germany as one of the victors of the Second Great War
    occupies its center. I think the Arabs and Muslims will feel more resentment towards the German occupiers that towards the Russians.
     
  17. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    The Ottoman Empire controls Mecca in TTL (along with all of Britain's former colonies and protectorates). And Islamic fundamentalism in general has not taken off either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2009
  18. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    It hadn't in our timeline right after World War II either, doesn't mean it won't however. After our World War II, there was a cold War between the East bloc and the Western Alliance. In TL-191 there is no Western Alliance, the various democracies in the World don't necessarily band together to find common ground. The Kaisar of Germany doesn't feel threatened by the United States and its most immediate enemies have been defeated during the Great War. I think Great Britian has nukes though and it is a bit of an adversary to Germany.

    How long do you think it would take the US and UK to put aside their differences? Maybe a generation perhaps? Say by 1965, the younger generation of Great Britain will be saying, "What was that war about anyway? Why were we on the side of a genocidal regime that was murdering black people?" Some Sub-Saharan African Colonial possessions that the UK still holds, such as South Africa, might look at their white colonial overlords with hatred, they'll remember the UK was on the side of the CSA and Jake Featherston, who was murdering their "brothers" in America. I forsee alot of trouble in South Africa, Rhodesia, and a number of other Colonial African possessions that the UK still holds.

    What about India? I don't believe Germany or Japan has taken over the place. Think This Timeline's verson of Gandi will seek independence for his country?
     
  19. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Not in TTL. The Treaty that ends the war in Europe explicitly bans France, Britain, or Russia from producing weapons of mass destruction.

    Relations between the USA and Britain will be warmer by the end of the 20th century, but not nearly to the extent of the traditional German-American alliance.

    As of 1961 in TTL, South Africa has long since gone its own way, and has implemented Apartheid. Britain is preparing to give independence to the Rhodesias (+Nyasaland), its final hold in Africa.

    In TTL, British rule in India collapsed after the Second Great War, and the country fragmented. All are members of the Independence Movement though.
     
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  20. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    There's no real opening for Islamic fundamentalism in TTL. The Ottomans smashed the Wahabis after the First Great War (I'm assuming) as they brought OTL Saudi Arabia under control. There are secular pan-Arab organizations around, but they have little to no chance at success.
     
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