I imagined that Australia and New Zealand were the primary destinations for British political exiles in TTL’s 1930s The US, after all, is not a particularly welcoming country in general for British expatriates.
TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
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I imagined that Australia and New Zealand were the primary destinations for British political exiles in TTL’s 1930s The US, after all, is not a particularly welcoming country in general for British expatriates.
During GW2, what groups are targeted by the Russian for persecution/deportation/extermination other than whatever Jews they have left and those wherever they occupy and plunder? I can definitely see them targeting ethnic Germans like IOTL by viewing them as a potential 'fifth column' despite the Tsar having some German heritage, especially those in the Volga, Caucasus, Ukraine and the Baltic. Poles, Finns, and Ukrainians fighting them may as well be targeted. They'll be doing security warfare as well. Does this also happen to let's say Kalmyks, Koreans, Tatars and smaller Turkic ethnic groups, etc.? Does widespread famine occurred engineered to starve out civilians in occupied territories? Does famine occur in certain parts of the Empire due to forced requisitioning and general wartime economy? More for the 'Photos' and 'Filling the Gaps' threads, I understand, but I was thinking if you'd have answers of your own.
TTL’s analogue to Stanley Matthews did not become a football player. He followed his father into boxing instead. However, his career was interrupted during the Second Great War, in which he served in the Royal Air Force. Following the end of the SGW, given the bleak postwar economic situation in Britain, he accepted an offer of recruitment into the postwar, reorganized Australian Air Force. After the end of his term of service with the Australian military, he worked for several arms manufacturers, including the joint Australian/New Zealander company Oceania.
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Bobby Moore doesn’t exist in TTL.
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TTL’s analogue to Bobby Jones did not become an professional golf player. In any case, coming of age in the CSA during the FGW, the Red Rebellions, and the political violence of the interwar years were not conducive to a lucrative career in sports. Jones was not engaged in politics, but did nothing to oppose the Freedom Party once Featherston cane to power. Due to long-standing health issues, he was unable to pursue a regular military career. However, he did eventually find steady work in the Confederacy’s growing system of arms manufacturing. After the CSA’s defeat (and surviving the US conquest of Georgia), Jones and his family elected to leave for the newly independent Republic of Texas, where he remained for the rest of his life.
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Henry Cotton’s analogue in TTL was known as Thomas Cotton. In TTL, he did not leave school, but still eventually wound up serving in the Royal Air Force. He was killed while serving on active duty on the Western Front.
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Alf Ramsey’s analogue in TTL (born on a slightly different date) is Ernest Ramsey. He served in the British Army during the SGW, and was wounded in action while serving on the Western Front. After returning to the United Kingdom, he worked as a greengrocer, and eventually worked his way up to the position of manager of a store in Hove owned by a local co-op.
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Arthur Peppercorn worked, as IOTL, for the London and North Eastern Railway. However, he lost his position following the end of the SGW, due to the postwar government’s austerity policies. Desperate to continue working in a similar capacity, he accepted an offer of subsidized immigration by an Australian poacher; Peppercorn recruited a not insignificant number of former LNER personnel to work in Australia’s railway system. Peppercorn died in Adelaide in 1951.
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In TTL, Oliver Bulleid’s family never left New Zealand. Bulleid, showing an aptitude for mechanical engineering, mathematics, and industrial design, would eventually move to Australia, where he worked in both local shipbuilding and arms manufacturing companies.
After the end of the Second Great War, which saw Australia and New Zealand being forced by the Central Powers to sever their ties with the British Royal Family, and with the Japanese Empire as a looming threat, both countries elected to pursue a unified defense strategy, which involved building up their own domestic arms manufacturing capacity (as well as eventually allying with the USA through the Compact of Democratic States). Oliver Bulleid played a key role in the postwar years as the first head of Oceania, a joint Australian-New Zealander arms manufacturing company. Bulleid served as head of this quasi-intergovernmental company until his death from old age, at the end of the Fourth Pacific War.
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William Stanier had a similar career to OTL, in that he worked in British railways. In TTL, however, he was not recruited for work in the London, Midland, and Scottish Railway. He remained in Swindon. After the end of the SGW, he joined the surge of postwar British immigration to Australia. He spent the rest of his life in Melbourne.
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Robert Riddles, as IOTL, served with the Royal Engineers, during the FGW. He was killed on the Western Front.
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TTL’s analogue to Ivo Peters served during the SGW, in the Royal Observer Corps of the Royal Air Force. After the end of the SGW, Peters accepted recruitment into the Australian Air Force in a similar capacity. Peters served in the 1950s in the Australian Defense Corps (ADC), an organization analogous to our world’s WWII-era Home Guard in the United Kingdom. After retiring, following the end of the Fourth Pacific War, he dedicated the rest of his life to landscape photography.
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No, Turtledove himself doesn’t exist in TTL.
Spec fiction about the War of Secession are generally popular in the US, even if some of these works tend to have a wish fulfillment aspect to them. One example of a War of Secession-related spec fic from TTL is President McClellan, written by a British author and published in the early 1980s. As the name suggests, the setting is an alternate world where the USA defeated the Confederacy; it takes place in an alternate 1982 where steam technology still dominates.
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In the US, in 2021, teaching the military occupation of Canada is something of a controversial subject. The general consensus, such as it is, is that while the military conquest of Canada was necessary to break the enemy encirclement of the US, the subsequent military occupation could have been handled far better.
Regarding the military occupation of the CSA, it is taught in the US public education system as an unambiguously justified policy, given Operation Blackbeard and the Destruction.
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The Arctic will become more of a strategic arena of competition between the US, the EC, and Russia suing the 21st Century.
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In 2021, diplomatic ties between the US and Texas remain what might be termed polite and steady. Support for rejoining the Union in Texas remains stuck at around 20%. But the local Reunion movement hopes to see a positive shift.
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In 2021, there are no major separatist movements in the US to speak of. Given how such groups tend to receive the negative attention of the Bureau of Investigation, this perhaps is not a surprise,
I think that these questions would be better answered in either the “Photos” or “Filling in the Gaps” threads.
This is something that’s probably been answered before but I’ve always been a little confused about is if there’s any real ideological or political philosophy differences between the big power blocs? Like what would make the European Community more appealing to a country over the CDS?
I’ve always gotten the impression that the German Empire and its sphere tends to lean more conservative and thus attracts similarly conservative states to its bloc
I’ve always gotten the impression that the German Empire and its sphere tends to lean more conservative and thus attracts similarly conservative states to its bloc
Obviously not Dave so my idea isn't official, but I'd say there really isn't much difference. TTL's America is so conservative and Prussianised that it's not very different from the German Empire (but for the absence of a king). Dave's mentioned places as far afield as South Sudan and Darfur joining the CDS, so... I'd have to say just whomever can project power better into your neighbourhood, you align with.
@David bar Elias please correct me if I'm wrong.
Pelé doesn’t exist in TTL.
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Frederick Hacksworth, in TTL, was not appointed Assistant to the Chief Mechanical Engineer, as William Stanier was not recruited to work in the London, Midland, and Scottish Railway. Hacksworth remained in Swindon until the end of the SGW, when he was among those recruited by Stanier (on behalf of an Australian poacher) to work in the Australian railway system. Hacksworth spent the rest of his life in Adelaide.
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Richard Beeching’s analogue in TTL focused academically in physics. He was eventually attached to the British superbomb project, though not in a senior capacity. After the end of the SGW, Beeching accepted an offer of recruitment from the Australian government’s Department of Coordination and Supply (DCS). The DCS in fact was the body responsible for recruiting British scientists and engineers for a possible Australian superbomb project, before it fell by the wayside in the early 1950s, when Australia and New Zealand joined the CDS and accepted the US nuclear umbrella.
After the Australian superbomb project was brought to an abrupt end in the 1950s, Beeching accepted a relatively lucrative offer to serve on the National Cooperation Board, which was responsible for coordinating the Australian government’s defense policies with the growing network of private arms manufacturers. Beeching retired from this position after the end of the Fourth Pacific War, only to accept an honorary role on the Board of Directors for the Oceania arms manufacturing company.
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TTL’s analogue to Wilbert Audry was also a cleric in the Anglican Church. Unlike in our world, however, he never became a successful writer. He remained an active religious leader, and did his best to help anyone who he could during the Churchill-Mosley regime, the SGW, and the postwar period of economic austerity.
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Tom Rolt’s life diverged sharply from his OTL path when his father, Lionel Rolt, did not lose most of his money in a failed investment. His family, relatively well-to-do in the miserable economic and social environment that marked Britain following the FGW, eventually elected to leave for Australia, where Lionel Rolt had once worked. The good fortune of the Rolt family ended with the Business Collapse.
Tom Rolt took any job that he could, but did not find steady employment until the SGW, when he found work in a shipyard. After the end of the SGW, Rolt would eventually find another steady job at the Oceania arms manufacturing conglomerate.
Rolt, in his spare time, wrote prolifically, mostly horror stories involving supernatural elements. He continued to write after his retirement from Oceania in 1970. However, his approximately three decades worth of horror novels and stories would not be published until following his death, thanks to the efforts of his surviving family. In 2021, Tom Rolt is still remembered fondly in Australia as the father of the country’s modern wave of horror fiction.
There isn’t a real ideological divide between the Austro-Hungarian/German-led EC and the US-led CDS. Traditional notions of great power rivalry are present in the post-SGW diplomatic relationship between these two blocs, but it is not a hostile rivalry, unlike the US-USSR Cold War in our world.
How would you rate race relations in your story? Do you think they are better or worse than OTL? I am assuming that there was no Civil Rights movement since what happened in the Confederacy makes people realize that discrimination isn't a good thing.
That more or less reflects how the alliance systems work in this world.
In the US, it’s certainly not a utopia, in 2021.
Legal discrimination in the US against African-Americans was banned by Congressional legislation at the end of the SGW and during the first generation after the end of the SGW. This was in large part a response by US policy makers and the US public to the horrors of the Destruction. In 2021 overt racism is highly taboo in the US public at large; open racist beliefs are strongly linked in US culture to what happened during the Destruction, as well as the still widely hated CSA.
OTL events like the Charlottesville riot or attempts by neo-Nazis to march through a Jewish neighborhood would be highly unlikely to occur in TTL’s USA, given the broad powers granted to local police agencies and the Bureau of Investigation to target any group deemed to be engaged in high treason.
However, even if overt racism in the USA is highly taboo, various forms of prejudice are hardly unknown, particularly where immigration is concerned.
I hate to dogpile on with the "what about this OTL person?" questions, but since I just finished his memoir, I was curious how Stefan Zweig ended up in this world.
Stefan Zweig lived his whole life in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and made his home in Vienna. He wrote continuously, and his various novels sold well, including translated versions in the United States. In 1954, Zweig was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature. He died in 1962 of old age in Vienna.
