Timeline help.

[VVD0D95]

So, as some might know I've been considering another timeline as of late. The pod is 1533, with John III of Portugal's son Prince Philip being born healthy and living into adulthood.

As part of this timeline, I'm faced with two other quandries.

Firstly, should Princess Mary still ascend the throne in 1553, or die before her brother does? If she does die before Edward VI, what does this do for the English succession? Does Jane Grey last longer on the throne? Does Liz I ever ascend the throne? What of religion in England?

Secondly, should I give James V and Mary of Guise a surviving son, if so what might the consequences of this be for Scotland and for otl Mary Queen of Scots?

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Events 20 years later? By this point an alternate outcome is just as likely as the OTL outcome. Either choose something (especially if you think a different path in history will help your story get across better), or just flip a coin or roll a dice or use an RNG (for more accurate simulation of an alt-TL).

- BNC

 

[VVD0D95]

Events 20 years later? By this point an alternate outcome is just as likely as the OTL outcome. Either choose something (especially if you think a different path in history will help your story get across better), or just flip a coin or roll a dice or use an RNG (for more accurate simulation of an alt-TL).

- BNC

Ah fair, cheers.

I do wonder if Mary not ascending the throne makes things worse of Catholics or better, as from my reading her reign really fucked terrified most people

 

[kasumigenx]

Mary could be still married to Philip..however her descendants are removed from succession.

 

[Southern pride]

On Scotland I would suggest Mary taking the throne and keeping it unlike otl but her not marrying Darnley.

On England have Edward live and marry Jane grey that way Scotland and England will remain separate.

 

[Tyler96]

If she does die before Edward VI, what does this do for the English succession? Does Jane Grey last longer on the throne? Does Liz I ever ascend the throne? What of religion in England?

Wasn't part of the reason Edward named Jane Grey his heir because he was worried about the future of Protestantism, and figured it would be too hard to cut Mary out of the succession whilst retaining Elizabeth? If Mary has significantly predeceased Edward, then this concern doesn't come up. Suffolk and his wife were hardcore Protestants too, so they might be less on board with the scheme without the prospect of a Catholic Queen Mary (though they were ambitious and Suffolk was pretty malleable, so...).

Dudley could still do shenanigans, but does he have a reason not to want Elizabeth on the throne? I mean, you could argue he figures he has a better chance of retaining his influence under a Queen Jane, but is that reason enough to risk his head?

Though if you have Mary die just days prior to Edward, with the Jane Grey scheme already in motion and Edward's will (or whatever it was) sorted out, then things are more complicated.

If you do have Elizabeth take the throne you have to decide whether she'll marry, and there's basically two options here

• Elizabeth has a deep seated distaste for marriage based on her parents dysfunctional relationship, perhaps added to by whatever happened with Seymour, and is aware of the problems with marriage (either tying her into a continental alliance or, if she marries domestically, the complicated situation where her husband would also be her subject), and as a consequence is never ever going to marry; or
• In this scenario Elizabeth avoids her infatuation with Bob Dudley and this, combined with the fact that she is younger and possibly more easily influenced by her advisors (though she was pretty headstrong), means she'll be willing to marry ITTL. Though there'll still be wrangling over who to marry.

 

[VVD0D95]

Mary could be still married to Philip..however her descendants are removed from succession.

Why would they be removed from the succession?

On Scotland I would suggest Mary taking the throne and keeping it unlike otl but her not marrying Darnley.

On England have Edward live and marry Jane grey that way Scotland and England will remain separate.

Alright why that path?

Wasn't part of the reason Edward named Jane Grey his heir because he was worried about the future of Protestantism, and figured it would be too hard to cut Mary out of the succession whilst retaining Elizabeth? If Mary has significantly predeceased Edward, then this concern doesn't come up. Suffolk and his wife were hardcore Protestants too, so they might be less on board with the scheme without the prospect of a Catholic Queen Mary (though they were ambitious and Suffolk was pretty malleable, so...).

Dudley could still do shenanigans, but does he have a reason not to want Elizabeth on the throne? I mean, you could argue he figures he has a better chance of retaining his influence under a Queen Jane, but is that reason enough to risk his head?

Though if you have Mary die just days prior to Edward, with the Jane Grey scheme already in motion and Edward's will (or whatever it was) sorted out, then things are more complicated.

If you do have Elizabeth take the throne you have to decide whether she'll marry, and there's basically two options here

• Elizabeth has a deep seated distaste for marriage based on her parents dysfunctional relationship, perhaps added to by whatever happened with Seymour, and is aware of the problems with marriage (either tying her into a continental alliance or, if she marries domestically, the complicated situation where her husband would also be her subject), and as a consequence is never ever going to marry; or
• In this scenario Elizabeth avoids her infatuation with Bob Dudley and this, combined with the fact that she is younger and possibly more easily influenced by her advisors (though she was pretty headstrong), means she'll be willing to marry ITTL. Though there'll still be wrangling over who to marry.

Hmm interesting, from what I've read Elizabeth seems quite opposed to marriage, due to as you suggested in option one the whole issue with her parents.

 

[Southern pride]

Why would they be removed from the succession?



Alright why that path?



Hmm interesting, from what I've read Elizabeth seems quite opposed to marriage, due to as you suggested in option one the whole issue with her parents.

On Mary I propose this because frankly I'm a Mary-phile Mary queen of Scots is my favorite Scottish monarch from history she was pretty smart to the only reason she met the fate she did otl was that no good Darnley she had way better options such as a foreign prince or every other noble in Scotland.

On Edward him and his regents ran England like a Protestant theocracy Catholic Church's were raided and torn down catholic priests thrown in the tower and so on and so on so it would be interesting to see Edwards theocracy/monarchy survive

Finally my main reason I love seeing a disunited British Island.

 

[VVD0D95]

On Mary I propose this because frankly I'm a Mary-phile Mary queen of Scots is my favorite Scottish monarch from history she was pretty smart to the only reason she met the fate she did otl was that no good Darnley she had way better options such as a foreign prince or every other noble in Scotland.

On Edward him and his regents ran England like a Protestant theocracy Catholic Church's were raided and torn down catholic priests thrown in the tower and so on and so on so it would be interesting to see Edwards theocracy/monarchy survive

Finally my main reason I love seeing a disunited British Island.

Alright interesting, tbf Mary did also have a lot of other issues, she alienated a fair few lords, and then in England became part of a plot to overthrow her cousin, not the smartest of moves aha.

 

[VVD0D95]

So, I think I've reached a decision.

In regards to England, Edward VI is still dying in 1553, but in the same instance of fever that hits England during that year, both Mary and Jane Grey and her sisters die, their deaths occur before Edward VI dies, roughly two months before his otl death. So Elizabeth would ascend the throne, I'm thinking she'd initially consider marriage proposals, but then perhaps be more likely to remain without marrying.

In regards to Scotland, I'm trying to think, if Liz ascended the throne as I've outlined there, and James V had a son of the same age, would there be any attempt to marry the two?

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

In regards to Scotland, I'm trying to think, if Liz ascended the throne as I've outlined there, and James V had a son of the same age, would there be any attempt to marry the two?

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, so why not?

- BNC

 

[VVD0D95]

There's nothing inherently wrong with it, so why not?

- BNC

Alright class, supposing then that James in this instance was married to Mary of Bourbon or Christine or Denmark he’d have a son the same age as liz

 

[VVD0D95]

Alternatively could James marry Isabella of Navarre? Or actually marry Mary of Hungary?

 

[Tyler96]

In regards to Scotland, I'm trying to think, if Liz ascended the throne as I've outlined there, and James V had a son of the same age, would there be any attempt to marry the two?

Maybe? It would have to overcome Elizabeth's distaste for marriage, and some English will bristle at the idea of a Scottish king- there's centuries of conflict there. If negotiations get anywhere, there might be some wrangling over what *James VI's (he'll be James VI, right? That's been the name of every Scottish monarch since 1406) title/constitutional position is, and James VI himself might push to be outright acknowledged as Elizabeth's heir as part of the marital negotiations (so if she dies without kids he can keep the throne)- Elizabeth mightn't like this, given her iffiness about choosing an heir IOTL.

How does Protestantism progress in Scotland under this new *James VI, and what is his personal religion? Because the English might be reluctant to go for a Catholic match (I know Catholic matches for Elizabeth were considered IOTL, with the Habsburgs and the French, but people might be especially uneasy at the prospect of a Catholic king with his own power base in the British Isles; though, without the reign of 'Bloody' Mary anti-Catholic sentiments in England might be a bit less severe, so...).

With all the Greys dead (which seems a bit drastic, but I do have a soft spot for them), then you can probably expect the Lennox Stewart's (Margaret, Darnley, et al.) to be all the more grasping and ambitious, and you've also elevated the position of Margaret Clifford (the only child of Eleanor Brandon, she married a Stanley Earl of Derby IOTL)- they'll be especially prone to manoeuvring if Elizabeth is unmarried or childless, and the status of her heir is up in the air (they might end up in the Tower for their trouble, IIRC Margaret of Lennox spent some time their IOTL).

Is your fever killing anyone else important? It'd be pretty convenient if it only killed Mary and the Grey sisters.

 

[VVD0D95]

Maybe? It would have to overcome Elizabeth's distaste for marriage, and some English will bristle at the idea of a Scottish king- there's centuries of conflict there. If negotiations get anywhere, there might be some wrangling over what *James VI's (he'll be James VI, right? That's been the name of every Scottish monarch since 1406) title/constitutional position is, and James VI himself might push to be outright acknowledged as Elizabeth's heir as part of the marital negotiations (so if she dies without kids he can keep the throne)- Elizabeth mightn't like this, given her iffiness about choosing an heir IOTL.

How does Protestantism progress in Scotland under this new *James VI, and what is his personal religion? Because the English might be reluctant to go for a Catholic match (I know Catholic matches for Elizabeth were considered IOTL, with the Habsburgs and the French, but people might be especially uneasy at the prospect of a Catholic king with his own power base in the British Isles; though, without the reign of 'Bloody' Mary anti-Catholic sentiments in England might be a bit less severe, so...).

With all the Greys dead (which seems a bit drastic, but I do have a soft spot for them), then you can probably expect the Lennox Stewart's (Margaret, Darnley, et al.) to be all the more grasping and ambitious, and you've also elevated the position of Margaret Clifford (the only child of Eleanor Brandon, she married a Stanley Earl of Derby IOTL)- they'll be especially prone to manoeuvring if Elizabeth is unmarried or childless, and the status of her heir is up in the air (they might end up in the Tower for their trouble, IIRC Margaret of Lennox spent some time their IOTL).

Is your fever killing anyone else important? It'd be pretty convenient if it only killed Mary and the Grey sisters.

This is true, though, would it be possible that a marriage could be arranged between her and James vi when they are both still children? Would Henry VIII do that? If not him perhaps the regency council for Edward VI?

Haha true, I was thinking that the Duke of Norfolk would also die, as would parts of the Percy and Neville families

 

[VVD0D95]

Maybe also Robert Dudley

 

[Tyler96]

This is true, though, would it be possible that a marriage could be arranged between her and James vi when they are both still children? Would Henry VIII do that? If not him perhaps the regency council for Edward VI?

Haha true, I was thinking that the Duke of Norfolk would also die, as would parts of the Percy and Neville families

Norfolk is like 80 at this point, and spent all of Edward's reign in the Tower, so he's hardly likely to be in robust health. With the Percies and the Nevilles, is that to avoid pro-Catholic troubles for Elizabeth in the north?

Maybe also Robert Dudley

To keep Elizabeth from developing her thing towards him?

 

[VVD0D95]

Norfolk is like 80 at this point, and spent all of Edward's reign in the Tower, so he's hardly likely to be in robust health. With the Percies and the Nevilles, is that to avoid pro-Catholic troubles for Elizabeth in the north?



To keep Elizabeth from developing her thing towards him?

I was thinking that perhaps it would be to avoid troubles yeah regarding the Percies and Nevilles, though if she's married to James VI, maybe they wouldn't be quite so hostile?

And aye, I think that would be best.

I'm now wondering what Henry VIII would do if Edward VI died before him aha. Or what nwould happen if Edward VI died almost immediately after his father.

 

[Tyler96]

I was thinking that perhaps it would be to avoid troubles yeah regarding the Percies and Nevilles, though if she's married to James VI, maybe they wouldn't be quite so hostile?

Might depend on how the marriage with James affects Elizabeth's religious policy. Though if nothing else, it would mean they don't have a convenient bolt-hole and can't flee to safety(ish) in Scotland if their revolt fails, which might dissuade troublemaking somewhat.

I'm now wondering what Henry VIII would do if Edward VI died before him aha.

Curse, rage, weep, and drink, most likely .

 

[VVD0D95]

Might depend on how the marriage with James affects Elizabeth's religious policy. Though if nothing else, it would mean they don't have a convenient bolt-hole and can't flee to safety(ish) in Scotland if their revolt fails, which might dissuade troublemaking somewhat.




Curse, rage, weep, and drink, most likely .

Oh this is true, so could such a marriage work out then? Ormwould it need Henry ciii to
Live a bit longer?

And aha true