The USSR severely underperformed in the early WWII , partly due to some awful generals. Which were the absolute worst of them and why?
The worst Soviet Generals of WWII
- Thread starter Johnrankins
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Deleted member 1487
There's a lot, but early on they were severely hampered by a bunch of stuff outside their control. Budyonny was really bad and a favorite of Stalin, but even Stalin had to fire him.
Certainly that wasn't the only reason but it was a significant one. Who else is on the list?
Deleted member 1487
Voroshilov IMHO.
Other than that I'd have to do research, I really only remember the quality ones.
The same generals who were curbstomping the German army some time later?
But probably Pavlov. Doubtful he was incompent (although out of his league yes in comparison to say Zhukov) as a military man but was astonishingly bad at playing the Stalin politics
Mostly different generals IIRC. That is like saying because Grant and Sherman won the ACW at the end that means the people they replaced like Burnside and McDowell were great.
Why not just skip past incompetent and go straight to the outright treacherous? In that case the answer is Vlasov.
Except the Soviet equivalents, Stalin, Zhukov, Timoshenko were there at the beginning. Yeryomenko, Vasilevsky.
Imperfect Soviet generals like Vatutin routinely humiliated Nazi stooges like Manstein and Paulus during the course of the war. From the very beginning. And by Stalingrad the German army was a mockery of its former self and the tables had turned.
There were rising stars though. Like Pavel Rotmistrov.
But the actual architects of the Nazi defeat were there from the beginning. Nazi military leaders including Hitler were amateur at strategy. And it shows.
If the Soviets had been actually prepared for Barbarossa it would have been stopped cold.
The Soviets were bad at the micro level of warfare but were better tham the Germans at the meta level of it. Thats why they won. Somone like Zhukov was vastly superior to any Nazi in terms of competence
Deleted member 1487
Are we going to do this again? Having superior numbers and superior external help from the world's most powerful economy and empire isn't being better at meta-warfare, it is getting lucky that your enemy's picks fights with everyone and that leader is rather insane.
If we begin WWII with the Marco Polo incident, Vasily Blyukher wins a gold star with his inept handling of the Battle of Lake Khasan, a debacle Zhukov would avenge a year later. The guy was seriously incompetent earning that lead commendation, especially for his opportunistic betrayal in the execution of Tukachevsky, an important reformer of the Red Army.
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Grant, Sherman, Thomas and Hancock were there at the beginning too. Imperfect Union Generals such as Hooker, Butler and McClellan had some victories too. Try again.
I also want to know if Manstein and Paulus and co. were inept how the hell the German's got anywhere close to Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. On paper the Nazis should have been stopped cold and kicked to the curb at the start of Barbarossa and yet weren't.
Deleted member 1487
In reference to Vatutin I think he means in 1943-44, when the Germans were overextended and fighting the Wallies at the same time and the USSR was getting loads of LL. Just as it is difficult to truly fault Soviet commanders for the disasters faced in 1941 due to factors outside their control, it is hard to do the same for a number of German commanders in the 1942-45 (in some instances even in 1941) when there were issues largely outside their control that impacted outcomes and conduct of battles/campaigns/the war itself. Talking about just skill leaves out more important factors; IMHO saying that Vatutin was a better general than Manstein is totally ignoring the outside factors in the equation. Manstein et al. were not inept, they had issues on their side put them at such a strategic and operational disadvantage that no amount of skill would have had them win.
Since he said from the beginning I think we can rule out 1943-1944. One of the big problems was that the Red Army had a lot of dead wood that needed to be cut out. Part of that was Stalin shooting or exiling a good many of them just before the war broke out.
Deleted member 1487
I mean I think Manstein was overrated, after all he did get himself into some troubles in 1941 at Soltsy which was avoidable...but then he was also told to carry out crazy orders to cut off Leningrad from Moscow through dense swamps with Panzer divisions confined to bad roads. Of course like Vatutin in 1943 and on Manstein in 1941-42 had a lot of advantages, material and otherwise, that the Soviets lacked.
I've seen the argument that the Soviet purges removed primarily dead wood...but that is frankly BS of the highest order; it was a political move and Stalin created the horrible situation in 1941; it is only when he let go of the military situation and found guys that fought well through trial and error, plus many millions of casualties, that the Red Army could be built up. Frankly given the cost of the trial and error system Stalin had to use given his methods of governance, it was an insane method that nearly destroyed the nation.
Agreed except Hitler was actually pretty good at strategy. He made bad choices but his generals were even worse. They were only good at fighting battles. He was right that they knew nothing about the economic aspect of war. The Germans, much like the Japanese who they influenced, thought of war as something quick and decisive. The Soviets instinctively understood industrial war.
Deleted member 1487
Eh...not really. He had some success when dipping his hands into operations, but he made massive blunders like invading the USSR, declaring war on the USA, starting the war in the first place, etc.
No, but being military pioneers that invent concepts like deep battle and operational art when the Nazi generals were still riding around on horses make them better. Being able to formulate a coherent operational design for Barbarossa instead of limbo like the Nazis. That makes them better at meta warfare.
They weerent there from the beginning. Leading
Grant was in charge as early as Ft. Henry. Although officially his boss Halleck didn't lead anything.