Who are some of the worst generals (from OTL or a TL of your choice) that never existed? And how did their lack of vision, tactical sense, and general leadership impact the course of events (either conflicts from OTL or else a different ATL)?
The Worst Generals in (Alternate) History
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
67th Tigers
Banned
The Duke of Cambridge invading the Confederacy instead of the Union in Stars and Stripes Forever?
MrP
Banned
McClellan. Even in Alternate History he's among the worst field commanders.
I see through thy villainous ploy to turn this into another argument about the ACW.
67th Tigers
Banned
McClellan. Even in Alternate History he's among the worst field commanders.
OTL: McClellan 3 - Lee 0
67th Tigers
Banned
I see through thy villainous ploy to turn this into another argument about the ACW.
Yep, although my latest research on McClellan is fascinating. Comparing his estimates of Confederate strength with those Livermore reports shows a very good correlation. When we use the same measure for both the Union and Confederacy (either Aggregate, Present or Effectives, all of which are in the literature) then it's clear that Lee had a striking advantage in manpower in the Seven Days, and near parity at Antietam.
It seems that, since Lincoln insisted on using aggregate when referring to McClellan's strength, McClellan returned the favour and used aggregate for the Confederate strength (in which case he's usually pretty close in his estimates).
Valdemar II
Banned
Nelson, his stupidity in the battle of Copenhagen resulted in the loss of a large part of British navy and the alienation of pro-British neutral power, the British can only thank God for his imprisonment in Copenhagen until his death in 1806.
Seven Days - Lee won.
Antietam - McClellan won.
There appears to be something wrong with your math.
Every Allied General in "The Man With the Iron Heart". If you're as incompetent as that at fighting a bunch of disorganized, ill supplied group of insurgents on the fringe of German society at that point so as to force you to withdrawal and give rise to a Fourth Reich (yes, Germany post-WW2 is almost totally destroyed and will not get any outside help in this TL, but Turtledove thinks they can reform a German power), you're likely legally retarded.
OTL Battle record: McClellan 4 - Lee 1
McCellan's victories - Beaver Dam Creek/Mechanicsville, Malvern Hill, South Mountain and Antietam.
Lee's Victory - Gaines Mill.
OTL Campaign victories: McClellan 1 - Lee 1
McClellan's campaign victory - Maryland Campaign.
Lee's Campaign victory - Seven Days Battles Campaign.
Okay, in this TL I invented in about 5 seconds, for some strange reason John Reynolds is given command of the AotP after 2nd Bull Run. This post must also be read with the appropriate "tone":
The worst general in this TL, by a wide margin, is Robert E. Lee.
I mean, let's just ignore for a moment the bungling he did in 1861 in West Virginia, and the alleged incompetencies he performed while in a desk job until 1862. This is just focusing on him as an 1862 field commander.
Any fool would have known that McClellan would have run away at the sight of his own shadow. Longstreet knew it. Magruder knew it. Hill (both of them) knew it. But Lee had to attack him 7 times, 6 more than necessary, to get him to retreat. He threw away 20,000 men on the field against a mildly superior force, ignoring several possibilities for enveloping parts of the Union line, because he could not rein in his subordinates.
2nd Bull Run was won entirely because of Jackson's daring (albeit at a high blood cost) and Pope being as aggressive as McClellan was cautious. Lee just turned his subordinates loose and then lost control of events. It was dumb luck, especially with the AotP rushing northward as fast as possible.
Now, what was up with Harper's Ferry? No army in the field at that time could have executed a 5-pronged invasion with any hope of success (it was a volunteer army, people!) But Lee left his most aggressive subordinate, Jackson, in charge of 3 out of the 5 wings. That was an open invitation for Jackson to go romping around the countryside, and he still almost didn't get the garrison to surrender, with Franklin, Hooker, and Reno at his back.
And, Lee was seriously doing some very bad thinking leaving half a division (D. H. Hill) in charge of the South Mountain passes. A single Union corps could have broken through, as Franklin evidenced against McLaws farther south, but Reynolds ordered the Ist, VIth, and IXth corps forward after he captured Special Orders 191 (and again, why would Lee write that down and leave it to be found? That should have been oral orders, with one copy kept at HQ).
And finally, Antietam. What fool in his right mind would try to have an army of 30,000 men try to hold a position with no particular defensive value, their backs 1 mile to the Potomac River, against a confident, well-supplied army of size 100,000 with an aggressive commander and a copy of their exact orders? On September 15th, Jackson was still 2 days march away at Harper's Ferry, and Reynolds was not stopping his advance for nothing.
Thanks in large part to heroic stands made by Hood's and D. H. Hill's divisions in the bloody lane, no thanks to Lee at all, the AoNV managed to avoid being captured piecemeal, although 7,000 were still trapped on the north bank of the Potomac, ignoring the 13,000 casualties taken in the battle. When Jackson re-joined him Lee had about 30,000 effectives, total, versus Reynolds commanding a combined force of 120,000. And by then there was nothing preventing Richmond being captured before winter. That, with the Emancipation Proclamation issued on the 22nd, was the Confederacy's death knell.
It took until July 4th, 1863, for Vicksburg to fall, the last large Confederate Army to surrender, but after Lee's disastrous manhandling of the Army of Northern Virginia, everybody knew that it was only a matter of time.
The worst general in this TL, by a wide margin, is Robert E. Lee.
I mean, let's just ignore for a moment the bungling he did in 1861 in West Virginia, and the alleged incompetencies he performed while in a desk job until 1862. This is just focusing on him as an 1862 field commander.
Any fool would have known that McClellan would have run away at the sight of his own shadow. Longstreet knew it. Magruder knew it. Hill (both of them) knew it. But Lee had to attack him 7 times, 6 more than necessary, to get him to retreat. He threw away 20,000 men on the field against a mildly superior force, ignoring several possibilities for enveloping parts of the Union line, because he could not rein in his subordinates.
2nd Bull Run was won entirely because of Jackson's daring (albeit at a high blood cost) and Pope being as aggressive as McClellan was cautious. Lee just turned his subordinates loose and then lost control of events. It was dumb luck, especially with the AotP rushing northward as fast as possible.
Now, what was up with Harper's Ferry? No army in the field at that time could have executed a 5-pronged invasion with any hope of success (it was a volunteer army, people!) But Lee left his most aggressive subordinate, Jackson, in charge of 3 out of the 5 wings. That was an open invitation for Jackson to go romping around the countryside, and he still almost didn't get the garrison to surrender, with Franklin, Hooker, and Reno at his back.
And, Lee was seriously doing some very bad thinking leaving half a division (D. H. Hill) in charge of the South Mountain passes. A single Union corps could have broken through, as Franklin evidenced against McLaws farther south, but Reynolds ordered the Ist, VIth, and IXth corps forward after he captured Special Orders 191 (and again, why would Lee write that down and leave it to be found? That should have been oral orders, with one copy kept at HQ).
And finally, Antietam. What fool in his right mind would try to have an army of 30,000 men try to hold a position with no particular defensive value, their backs 1 mile to the Potomac River, against a confident, well-supplied army of size 100,000 with an aggressive commander and a copy of their exact orders? On September 15th, Jackson was still 2 days march away at Harper's Ferry, and Reynolds was not stopping his advance for nothing.
Thanks in large part to heroic stands made by Hood's and D. H. Hill's divisions in the bloody lane, no thanks to Lee at all, the AoNV managed to avoid being captured piecemeal, although 7,000 were still trapped on the north bank of the Potomac, ignoring the 13,000 casualties taken in the battle. When Jackson re-joined him Lee had about 30,000 effectives, total, versus Reynolds commanding a combined force of 120,000. And by then there was nothing preventing Richmond being captured before winter. That, with the Emancipation Proclamation issued on the 22nd, was the Confederacy's death knell.
It took until July 4th, 1863, for Vicksburg to fall, the last large Confederate Army to surrender, but after Lee's disastrous manhandling of the Army of Northern Virginia, everybody knew that it was only a matter of time.
67th Tigers
Banned
I was regarding the Seven Days as a single battle* (which it is in modern terms). McClellan certainly won that, he frustrated Lee at every turn and placed himself in a better position than when he started.
* Also regard Quatre Bras-Ligny-Waterloo-Wavre as a single battle for example
Lothaw, you assmunch. You did that solely because you saw 67th posting here, didn't you?
Now that we've all stopped talking about Little Mac, I vote for Custer in TL-191. He's like Gough on uppers. And no, "inventing" the blitzkrieg - and by combined-arms blitzkrieg we mean tank rush, kekeke - doesn't help after the first 3/4 of the war.
You did that solely because you saw 67th posting here, didn't you? Now that we've all stopped talking about Little Mac, I vote for Custer in TL-191. He's like Gough on uppers. And no, "inventing" the blitzkrieg - and by combined-arms blitzkrieg we mean tank rush, kekeke - doesn't help after the first 3/4 of the war.
Lothaw, you assmunch.
Now that we've all stopped talking about Little Mac, I vote for Custer in TL-191. He's like Gough on uppers. And no, "inventing" the blitzkrieg - and by combined-arms blitzkrieg we mean tank rush, kekeke - doesn't help after the first 3/4 of the war.
The thought did cross my mind, I'll confess.
But to defend my statement and stay on topic, I'll defend my statement by saying anyone who offers battle behind a river with but a single route of retreat, one that's destroyable at that, and lets himself get so thourghly outmanuvered like Little Mac did at Camp Hill in How Few Remain, does make the list.
Almost typed something about the Seven Days, but I'll refrain.
Jubilation T. Cornpone FTW!
From Wikipedia: Dogpatch's founder and most famous son, memorialized by a town statue, is Confederate General Jubilation T. Cornpone - renowned for "Cornpone's Retreat," "Cornpone's Disaster," "Cornpone's Misjudgment," and "Cornpone's Hoomiliation." Cornpone was such a disastrously incompetent military leader that he came to be considered an important asset of the opposing side. (According to the stage play, the Confederate statue was commissioned by a grateful President Abraham Lincoln!)
Top that!
From Wikipedia: Dogpatch's founder and most famous son, memorialized by a town statue, is Confederate General Jubilation T. Cornpone - renowned for "Cornpone's Retreat," "Cornpone's Disaster," "Cornpone's Misjudgment," and "Cornpone's Hoomiliation." Cornpone was such a disastrously incompetent military leader that he came to be considered an important asset of the opposing side. (According to the stage play, the Confederate statue was commissioned by a grateful President Abraham Lincoln!)
Top that!
Anaxagoras
Banned
Joe Johnston in Guns of the South. If you have 60,000 men armed with AK-47s against 100,000 men armed with muskets, you don't need to retreat a single step.