2) Something similar was done by the captain of the Brittanic, with the same results.
To be fair to the captain of the Britannic had people kept the E-deck portholes shut, she probably would have made it to shore.
The Whale has Wings
- Thread starter Astrodragon
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To be fair to the captain of the Britannic had people kept the E-deck portholes shut, she probably would have made it to shore.
usertron2020
Donor
Meh. It was a ship designed for passage in the North Atlantic, not the Mediterranean. She never should have been there at all. Not in a region where daytime temperatures can reach 110 degrees F on the outside, never mind in the belly of a coal burning ship! And to be fair
to the captain, WTF was his crew doing sending out fully loaded lifeboats on a ship that was still underway? Yes, I know what happened with the ship's exposed propellors and those lifeboats!Actually, no. She was hit by only four fish, IIRC. It was a matter of not all the adjustments having been made since her sea trials had not yet been undergone. It's watertight doors below the waterline MAY have all been installed, but they had not yet been properly calibrated and quality controlled for water tightness and ability to withstand shock damage (1) in combat conditions. Also, AIUI, the captain foolishly continued onward, (2) rather than stopping to check for internal damage and flooding, thereby causing the pressures of the sea while the ship was underway to be magnified manyfold.*glug-glug*
1) When you are unable to secure and close said doors, you basically have a Little Dutch Boy Effect all over the ship, with water pressures shooting in that are beyond the limits of human strength alone to hold back.
2) Something similar was done by the captain of the Brittanic, with the same results.
usertron2020
While steaming on after an attack has dangers I would suspect that stopping when you're just been attacked by a sub is probably at least as dangerous? Especially if you're poorly escorted and there might well be other subs about.
Steve
Remember, any time the RN has the temerity to sink anything historically sunk by the USN I get accused of a Brit-wank.
Its like some aquatic form of Historical Inevitability...
Its like some aquatic form of Historical Inevitability...
Remember, any time the RN has the temerity to sink anything historically sunk by the USN I get accused of a Brit-wank.
Its like some aquatic form of Historical Inevitability...
Perhaps if you leave part of the superstructure above water???
Equally if anything of the USN gets sunk, even if it was sunk in OTL, you will be accused on an Ameri-screw. And if you even think of suggesting any member of the US armed forces (bar perhaps MacArthur) wasn't an utterly perfect military genius...Remember, any time the RN has the temerity to sink anything historically sunk by the USN I get accused of a Brit-wank.
Its like some aquatic form of Historical Inevitability...
You do wonder why such people read something that they know will upset them.
usertron2020
Donor
HEY!
If the Shinano were a naval vessel fully crewed and having finished her sea trials, I would agree with you completely. But the very fact that it only required those four fish to sink her showed what a vulnerable condition she was in in the first place. Poor command decision IMVHO.
Who CARES who sinks the Yamato!? Just sink it!
HEY!!
Why is it that anytime a poster has the temerity to just discuss the sinking of anything that was historically sunk by the USN said poster gets accused of charging Brit-wank? I never said there was anything wrong with the RN sinking the Yamato, or any Yamato-class battleship. I even suggested a death ride for the IJN in the DEI that could potentially very well doom the Yamato before the guns of the Royal Navy.
I merely questioned the concept of one little submarine of ANY nation pulling off such a monumental feat as sinking the Yamato by itself. Yet once again, out you come implying the presence of "American Exceptionalism"...
Its like some marine form of Historical Inevitability...
1) Astro, you DO know the proper term is "marine", not "aquatic", right?
Marine is salt water
Aquatic is fresh water
A distinction every American knows from the War of 1812, a war in which you kicked our asses with the most routine regularity, except on the aquatic field of combat on the Great Lakes!
If the Shinano were a naval vessel fully crewed and having finished her sea trials, I would agree with you completely. But the very fact that it only required those four fish to sink her showed what a vulnerable condition she was in in the first place. Poor command decision IMVHO.
What if we promise to leave the Musashi for the US?
Who CARES who sinks the Yamato!? Just sink it!
Remember, any time the RN has the temerity to sink anything historically sunk by the USN I get accused of a Brit-wank.
Its like some aquatic (1) form of Historical Inevitability...
HEY!!
Why is it that anytime a poster has the temerity to just discuss the sinking of anything that was historically sunk by the USN said poster gets accused of charging Brit-wank? I never said there was anything wrong with the RN sinking the Yamato, or any Yamato-class battleship. I even suggested a death ride for the IJN in the DEI that could potentially very well doom the Yamato before the guns of the Royal Navy.
I merely questioned the concept of one little submarine of ANY nation pulling off such a monumental feat as sinking the Yamato by itself. Yet once again, out you come implying the presence of "American Exceptionalism"
...Its like some marine form of Historical Inevitability...
1) Astro, you DO know the proper term is "marine", not "aquatic", right?
Marine is salt water
Aquatic is fresh water
A distinction every American knows from the War of 1812, a war in which you kicked our asses with the most routine regularity,
except on the aquatic field of combat on the Great Lakes!
Last edited:
If the Shinano were a naval vessel fully crewed and having finished her sea trails, I would agree with you completely. But the very fact that it only required those four fish to sink her showed what a vulnerable condition she was in in the first place. Poor command decision IMVHO.
Who CARES who sinks the Yamato!? Just sink it!
HEY!!
Why is it that anytime a poster has the temerity to just discuss the sinking of anything that was historically sunk by the USN said poster gets accused of charging Brit-wank? I never said there was anything wrong with the RN sinking the Yamato, or any Yamato-class battleship. I even suggested a death ride for the IJN in the DEI that could potentially very well doom the Yamato before the guns of the Royal Navy.
I merely questioned the concept of one little submarine of ANY nation pulling off such a monumental feat as sinking the Yamato by itself. Yet once again, out you come implying the presence of "American Exceptionalism"
Its like some marine form of Historical Inevitability...
1) Astro, you DO know the proper term is "marine", not "aquatic", right?
Marine is salt water
Aquatic is fresh water
A distinction every American knows from the War of 1812, a war in which you kicked our asses with the most routine regularity,
Wasn't talking about you, Usertron, you've always been very reasonable.
Well apart from taking every comment personally even when it was quite clearly was directed at other people.Wasn't talking about you, Usertron, you've always been very reasonable.
usertron2020
Donor
Wasn't talking about you, Usertron, you've always been very reasonable.
Its nice to hear that, thank you. There are more than a few people who would disagree with you on that score, even vociferously.
Its nice to hear that, thank you. There are more than a few people who would disagree with you on that score, even vociferously.
Well, reasonable isn't the same as correct....
Under orders from Stalin, Marshal Timoshenko takes command of the Stalingrad Front. The Germans have now reached Lisichansk and Kanteminovka.
Given the effect of the Allies counterattack, the Italian High command makes two decisions. First, the western part of Sicily will be abandoned, and the forces there used to reinforce the centre. The non-mobile and poorly equipped coastal formations will also be withdrawn to help build a defence line and to generally aid the more mobile defenders. Second, additional troops will be moved south in Italy. The bulk of these will be held in Italy, but two divisions will be moved to Sicily to bolster the defences. This will include an armoured division, as it is clear the Italian forces are currently overmatched by the Allied armour.
The Allies themselves are reluctant to exploit their initial advances, until they have finished unloading the first set of formations. The only planned advance is a slow push forward in the centre to give the Canadians more depth, and to allow additional units to land behind them. In the east, the buildup will continue through Syracuse before a fresh attack is made. While the Italians have been driven back, and in some cases individual units showed signs of panic or surrender, there is as yet no sign of a collapse such as happened in North Africa. O'Connel's intention is to build up a stronger armoured force, then attack north/northeast in an attempt to break through and separate the Italian formations. He thinks this is much more likely to break the will of the cut-off Italian army, allowing a drive east to clear the island.
Efforts are also underway to bring the first temporary airstrips for fighters into action. These have been delayed by the Italian attacks. They are considered urgent, as now the initial shock has worn off there is more Italian air activity. The strips will also be useful to recover damaged planes. Montgomery also wants the artillery ammunition unloaded and available. The reduction of artillery support due to shortages was covered by naval gunfire, but once he advances north this will not be available.
General Kesselring meets with Mussolini to discuss the possibilities of sending German forces to aid the Italian defence. While the bulk of the German army is currently busy in Russia, a number of reserve units can be taken from France. While Mussolini is in favour of this, there is strong opposition from the Italian general Staff, who feel it is both unnecessary and an insult to Italian troops. In any case, by the time German troops can arrive in Sicily, it is likely the battle will have been decided one way or the other. For internal political reasons, Mussolini is unwilling to overrule the staff, but agrees privately with Kesselring that preparations should be made 'in case the situation worsens'.
Now that the invasion of Sicily is well established, the RAF remove the heavy bomber force from their initial mission of disrupting Italian communications. They intend to start a campaign against the Ruhr, with the intent of crippling German war production in the area. The medium bombers (with the exception of the Mosquito force) will remain tasked to help the army until further notice.
The commander of the 15thPanzergrenadier division is refused permission for a full-scale attack against the US forces now facing him. The Italian command wish to finish the reorganisation of their forces, which will take some days due to shortage of transport, not helped by the Allied planes currently treating Italian transport on Sicily as a training exercise in ground attack. Despite this, the Germans do start a series of small local attacks, under the guise of 'aggressive forward reconnaissance'. This causes considerable problems to the Ameriacn formation. Still inexperienced, they tend to overreact to such local attacks, and as a result the US end of the beachhead is not as advanced as originally planned.
RAF reconnaissance planes report the Italian troops heading south. This was hardly unexpected, and the current effort is on seeing what is moving to the Straits of Messina. O'Connor does not wish to bomb Italian port facilities in the south of Italy as yet, as he has hope of using them in a later invasion attempt, but smaller facilities used to transport supplies and reinforcements to Sicily are another matter, and the light bomber force is tasked to attack these over the next week.
July 16th
The roundup of Jews begins in Paris. Its scale earns it the name 'La Grande Rafle,' The Great Raid. The five arrondissements are sealed off, causing whole parts of the city to be dislocated. Some advance warnings have leaked , spreading by word of mouth through the Jewish community, with the result that almost half of those on the lists have left home and escaped arrest.
9,000 French police combed the city, snatching every foreign born Jew they could find. They arrested 14,000 registered 'stateless' Jews. 6,000 have been sent to Drancy, the first stop on the long journey to Auschwitz; 3,000 children are among nearly 7,000 Jews gathered in the huge sports stadium called the Velodrome d'Hiver, waiting for their turn to go.
The German General Staff discuss the Italian situation with Kesselring. The state of the fighting in Russia makes them reluctant to reserve too many forces for Italy, although it is accepted that if the Allies land on the mainland something will have to be done to stiffen the Italian defence. The current hope is that one more push in Russia will allow the front there to be stabilised if necessary in a position of strength. In the meantime, some forces in France are put on alert and the Luftwaffe promises to move aircraft to Italy. They point out that they can reduce the fighter strength in Germany to some extent, although the bomber force is currently dedicated to the offensive in Russia. None of the staff are particularly happy with the situation.
Given the effect of the Allies counterattack, the Italian High command makes two decisions. First, the western part of Sicily will be abandoned, and the forces there used to reinforce the centre. The non-mobile and poorly equipped coastal formations will also be withdrawn to help build a defence line and to generally aid the more mobile defenders. Second, additional troops will be moved south in Italy. The bulk of these will be held in Italy, but two divisions will be moved to Sicily to bolster the defences. This will include an armoured division, as it is clear the Italian forces are currently overmatched by the Allied armour.
The Allies themselves are reluctant to exploit their initial advances, until they have finished unloading the first set of formations. The only planned advance is a slow push forward in the centre to give the Canadians more depth, and to allow additional units to land behind them. In the east, the buildup will continue through Syracuse before a fresh attack is made. While the Italians have been driven back, and in some cases individual units showed signs of panic or surrender, there is as yet no sign of a collapse such as happened in North Africa. O'Connel's intention is to build up a stronger armoured force, then attack north/northeast in an attempt to break through and separate the Italian formations. He thinks this is much more likely to break the will of the cut-off Italian army, allowing a drive east to clear the island.
Efforts are also underway to bring the first temporary airstrips for fighters into action. These have been delayed by the Italian attacks. They are considered urgent, as now the initial shock has worn off there is more Italian air activity. The strips will also be useful to recover damaged planes. Montgomery also wants the artillery ammunition unloaded and available. The reduction of artillery support due to shortages was covered by naval gunfire, but once he advances north this will not be available.
General Kesselring meets with Mussolini to discuss the possibilities of sending German forces to aid the Italian defence. While the bulk of the German army is currently busy in Russia, a number of reserve units can be taken from France. While Mussolini is in favour of this, there is strong opposition from the Italian general Staff, who feel it is both unnecessary and an insult to Italian troops. In any case, by the time German troops can arrive in Sicily, it is likely the battle will have been decided one way or the other. For internal political reasons, Mussolini is unwilling to overrule the staff, but agrees privately with Kesselring that preparations should be made 'in case the situation worsens'.
Now that the invasion of Sicily is well established, the RAF remove the heavy bomber force from their initial mission of disrupting Italian communications. They intend to start a campaign against the Ruhr, with the intent of crippling German war production in the area. The medium bombers (with the exception of the Mosquito force) will remain tasked to help the army until further notice.
The commander of the 15thPanzergrenadier division is refused permission for a full-scale attack against the US forces now facing him. The Italian command wish to finish the reorganisation of their forces, which will take some days due to shortage of transport, not helped by the Allied planes currently treating Italian transport on Sicily as a training exercise in ground attack. Despite this, the Germans do start a series of small local attacks, under the guise of 'aggressive forward reconnaissance'. This causes considerable problems to the Ameriacn formation. Still inexperienced, they tend to overreact to such local attacks, and as a result the US end of the beachhead is not as advanced as originally planned.
RAF reconnaissance planes report the Italian troops heading south. This was hardly unexpected, and the current effort is on seeing what is moving to the Straits of Messina. O'Connor does not wish to bomb Italian port facilities in the south of Italy as yet, as he has hope of using them in a later invasion attempt, but smaller facilities used to transport supplies and reinforcements to Sicily are another matter, and the light bomber force is tasked to attack these over the next week.
July 16th
The roundup of Jews begins in Paris. Its scale earns it the name 'La Grande Rafle,' The Great Raid. The five arrondissements are sealed off, causing whole parts of the city to be dislocated. Some advance warnings have leaked , spreading by word of mouth through the Jewish community, with the result that almost half of those on the lists have left home and escaped arrest.
9,000 French police combed the city, snatching every foreign born Jew they could find. They arrested 14,000 registered 'stateless' Jews. 6,000 have been sent to Drancy, the first stop on the long journey to Auschwitz; 3,000 children are among nearly 7,000 Jews gathered in the huge sports stadium called the Velodrome d'Hiver, waiting for their turn to go.
The German General Staff discuss the Italian situation with Kesselring. The state of the fighting in Russia makes them reluctant to reserve too many forces for Italy, although it is accepted that if the Allies land on the mainland something will have to be done to stiffen the Italian defence. The current hope is that one more push in Russia will allow the front there to be stabilised if necessary in a position of strength. In the meantime, some forces in France are put on alert and the Luftwaffe promises to move aircraft to Italy. They point out that they can reduce the fighter strength in Germany to some extent, although the bomber force is currently dedicated to the offensive in Russia. None of the staff are particularly happy with the situation.
So Benny is making plans with Smiling Albert. This could muddy the waters regarding the people who've been talking to O'Connor* and the allies. I do hope that the removal of fighters from Germany - possibly from places like the Ruhr - can occur before the RAF has managed to get its new offensive sorted out. Even if the German "reconnaissance in force" missions are hurting the Americans, the more time they have before a proper attack comes, the more chance they have of holding the line...
Interested to see what the plan - other than attacking minor ports - is for the straits. Whether it be Italians going one way, or potentially the allies going the other (possibly shortly after the Italians go back from whence they came)...
*While I think having (presumably) Paul O'Connell in charge of a war would be marvellous, I see him more leading the attack, broadsword in hand than directing the fight from an HQ I'm assuming you enjoyed yesterday's victory over the Aussies, even if the aforementioned typo didn't play...
Interested to see what the plan - other than attacking minor ports - is for the straits. Whether it be Italians going one way, or potentially the allies going the other (possibly shortly after the Italians go back from whence they came)...
*While I think having (presumably) Paul O'Connell in charge of a war would be marvellous, I see him more leading the attack, broadsword in hand than directing the fight from an HQ
I'm assuming you enjoyed yesterday's victory over the Aussies, even if the aforementioned typo didn't play...Hmm Seven thousand in a stadium, either a massive resistance raid or the first use of Allied Paratroopers on Mainland Europe will be needed if there's any way to save them.
I don't know if this is something from the OTL or just for this but I've never heard anthing about this one before, hell something like this will just end up with more people joining the Maquis or the Communist Resistance than anything else in the last year.
I don't know if this is something from the OTL or just for this but I've never heard anthing about this one before, hell something like this will just end up with more people joining the Maquis or the Communist Resistance than anything else in the last year.
usertron2020
Donor
Well, reasonable isn't the same as correct....
Nobody's perfect, except Celestial Dragons.
usertron2020
Donor
First, not surprising since the Germans on the western flank are actually on a limited offensive against the Americans, so they certainly don't have to worry about Sicily's western half.
Second, two more German divisions (I'm assuming these are Germans) will do wonders for Sicily's defenses, especially at Mt. Etna (assuming they make it in time). OTOH, even Italian divisions will do quite nicely in the shadow of that mountain.
Astrodragon said:
At least the navy will be on the flanks of the eastern and western shorelines.
Astrodragon said:
I'm surprised Mussolini hasn't gotten a call from Adolph yet.
Astrodragon said:
No doubt to the relief of a lot of GIs.
Astrodragon said:
Which may well be the literal truth!
Astrodragon said:
Bismarck's old nightmare: The Two Front War is finally beginning to arrive!
EDIT: No dismissing the UK's efforts up to now, but this means that the Russian Front is now being materially effected by events elsewhere, something not seen OTL until 1943!
I'd like to say I really blame the french for this but I really do know better, most had no choice while others were collaborators. At least there's been no attempt to hide it up or say it didnt happen like other collaborations worldwide.
I also know after reading that in Wiki that there's no way to stop this from happening short of an all out invasion and thats a long way off and short of carpet bombing the area there's no way to stop the Jews being sent out and treated worse than animals.
Humanity, the only race who knows how to perpetrate pure evil.
I also know after reading that in Wiki that there's no way to stop this from happening short of an all out invasion and thats a long way off and short of carpet bombing the area there's no way to stop the Jews being sent out and treated worse than animals.
Humanity, the only race who knows how to perpetrate pure evil.
Astrodragon
Interesting update. Both sides preparing for the next stage giving a breather.
The low level German attacks will hopefully give some useful experience to the US forces.
On the point:
Do you mean a drive west or a drive from the east? Because if he's making an attack NNE from a position on the SE side of the island he can't go much further east.
Steve
Interesting update. Both sides preparing for the next stage giving a breather.
The low level German attacks will hopefully give some useful experience to the US forces.
On the point:
Do you mean a drive west or a drive from the east? Because if he's making an attack NNE from a position on the SE side of the island he can't go much further east.
Steve
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