In addition to what's already been said about Valdemar's missteps in handling Jon, perhaps allowing him to stay as høvitsman of Norway could've given him more incentive to play nice with the Union instead of aligning so openly with the German nobles. It's unfortunate that his temper made his decision to split Schleswig-Holstein backfire, because he had good reason to do so. I'm interested to see how this conflict will play out, as well as what Norway's reaction will be to all this.
The Sons of Semiramis - A house of Folkung Kalmar Union
- Thread starter Atterdag
- Start date
It would be hilarious as heck if Valdemar managed to unite the Union... just in arms against him with his own brother leading them. Mission failed successfully, I would say.
It’ll all come down to how competent and assertive Jon becomes as Duke. Right now he’s falling under the influence of his own nobility, but he might be able to turn the tables, perhaps through doing what you suggest.
I don't think he need to be very competent, he just need to do two things; avoid wars and don't waste money. Schleswig is very rich, as long as no one burn it down he can pretty much just expand his fortune through his tenants paying rent and borrowing money out. In the latter case preferable to German princes who can't get away from their debt by invading him and not his liege who can, in case of his liege it should be money for pawned land.
Intermediate - The Folkung dynasty name
Intermediate - The Folkung dynasty name
So, here's a topic where I'd really like some of your opinions and/or ideas. What should the Folkung dynasty be called in this timeline?
Now, for context, the name Folkung was coined to describe the dynasty in the 17th century, though the term existed before, then not referring to any specific family. This is the same era when last names became common among Scandinavian nobility in general, before that family names weren't commonly used and people (including me) retroactively applying them is just for simplicity's sake. The name Folkung harkons back to the dynasty's supposed founder Folke the fat.
Now, when standardised "dynasty names" come around in this timeline, and if the Folkungs are still around at that time, should they be called Folkungs? I wouldn't have a problem with it name-wise, I think it's a pretty cool name, but there may be some other potential issues with the name. One would be that it seems like there were relatively few ruling houses in Europe which took their name from a founding figure, the Jagiellonian dynasty being one of the few examples I know of, and I'm unsure if that name was ever "official".
It seems to me like it was much more common to have a place-derived dynasty name, that's the case for most German families at least. A name like that exists for the Folkung dynasty, the house of Bjälbo, referring to a tiny village in Östergötland where the family first held lands. It might just be me, but I kinda hate that name and I'd rather not use it.
So, with that in mind, I'd like some ideas for what the dynasty should be called in this timeline, if we don't stick to the Folkung name.
I have a few possible ideas myself, but I'm not sure if I like any of them.
One would be basing the name of the family coat of arms, which is what lots of Scandinavian nobility did when they had to pick a last name in the 17th century, the Vasa family included. If so, I suppose that would be the golden lion which also half-represents Sweden alongside the three crowns, so the family could be called something like Gyldenløve, which actually was the surname bastards of Danish Kings were given in the 17th century. Or maybe it could be derived from the three crowns representing the union, as the house of Tre Kroner, which has a nice ring to it I think.
Another possibility would be to make a parallell to the house of Estridsen, the old royal house of Denmark, which took it's name from the fact that it rose to royalty through a marriage to a royal princess named Estrid. A case could be made that there's a parallell between that and how the Folkungs rose to power in Denmark by marrying Margaret Valdemarsdatter, so a name like Margrethesen could be a possibility. Now that still is naming the house after it's "founder", but I really like the idea of crediting Margaret by naming the entire dynasty after her. The union exisiting is all on her after all, and would also fit well with this timeline's name.
Naming the dynasty after one of the union's Kingdoms could also be a possibility, if so I think something like the House of Norway could be a possibility, given the fact that only Norway is a hereditary Kingdom and thus the only one that really belongs to the dynasty, I also think it'd be nice symbolic gesture to the weakest and sometimes woefully ignored of the three Kingdoms. Abroad I think a name like the House of Denmark might be used though, as it's the most prominent of the Kingdoms and certainly the one most connected to the rest of Europe, creating something like a England/Great Britain or Holland/Netherlands situation.
Those are a few possibilites I thought of, now I'd love to hear what you think of them as well as your own ideas.
So, here's a topic where I'd really like some of your opinions and/or ideas. What should the Folkung dynasty be called in this timeline?
Now, for context, the name Folkung was coined to describe the dynasty in the 17th century, though the term existed before, then not referring to any specific family. This is the same era when last names became common among Scandinavian nobility in general, before that family names weren't commonly used and people (including me) retroactively applying them is just for simplicity's sake. The name Folkung harkons back to the dynasty's supposed founder Folke the fat.
Now, when standardised "dynasty names" come around in this timeline, and if the Folkungs are still around at that time, should they be called Folkungs? I wouldn't have a problem with it name-wise, I think it's a pretty cool name, but there may be some other potential issues with the name. One would be that it seems like there were relatively few ruling houses in Europe which took their name from a founding figure, the Jagiellonian dynasty being one of the few examples I know of, and I'm unsure if that name was ever "official".
It seems to me like it was much more common to have a place-derived dynasty name, that's the case for most German families at least. A name like that exists for the Folkung dynasty, the house of Bjälbo, referring to a tiny village in Östergötland where the family first held lands. It might just be me, but I kinda hate that name and I'd rather not use it.
So, with that in mind, I'd like some ideas for what the dynasty should be called in this timeline, if we don't stick to the Folkung name.
I have a few possible ideas myself, but I'm not sure if I like any of them.
One would be basing the name of the family coat of arms, which is what lots of Scandinavian nobility did when they had to pick a last name in the 17th century, the Vasa family included. If so, I suppose that would be the golden lion which also half-represents Sweden alongside the three crowns, so the family could be called something like Gyldenløve, which actually was the surname bastards of Danish Kings were given in the 17th century. Or maybe it could be derived from the three crowns representing the union, as the house of Tre Kroner, which has a nice ring to it I think.
Another possibility would be to make a parallell to the house of Estridsen, the old royal house of Denmark, which took it's name from the fact that it rose to royalty through a marriage to a royal princess named Estrid. A case could be made that there's a parallell between that and how the Folkungs rose to power in Denmark by marrying Margaret Valdemarsdatter, so a name like Margrethesen could be a possibility. Now that still is naming the house after it's "founder", but I really like the idea of crediting Margaret by naming the entire dynasty after her. The union exisiting is all on her after all, and would also fit well with this timeline's name.
Naming the dynasty after one of the union's Kingdoms could also be a possibility, if so I think something like the House of Norway could be a possibility, given the fact that only Norway is a hereditary Kingdom and thus the only one that really belongs to the dynasty, I also think it'd be nice symbolic gesture to the weakest and sometimes woefully ignored of the three Kingdoms. Abroad I think a name like the House of Denmark might be used though, as it's the most prominent of the Kingdoms and certainly the one most connected to the rest of Europe, creating something like a England/Great Britain or Holland/Netherlands situation.
Those are a few possibilites I thought of, now I'd love to hear what you think of them as well as your own ideas.
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I'd go for House of Norway but naming it after Margaret would fit the Semiramis theme.
Perhaps the short version Marthasen?
Could it perhaps simply be called the Kalmar dynasty? The union is the Kalmar Union after all. And while Kalmar is a Swedish city, it has become so synonymous with Nordic unity that it likely wouldn’t give favour to any Nordic kingdom, but instead put into focus that they are kings of all Scandinavia. It would also be an easy reference for other Europeans: “Those dastardly Kalmar kings and all their Nordic land”. It’s also easy to pronounce by the other European rulers. And the house of Kalmar just sounds nice in my ears 
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One thing you didn´t mention...they could found a new city and be named after that(honestly, Kopenhavn isn´t exactly well defended against the Hanseatic League).
Or, the 'Unionkings'? The Kalmarer Dynasty?
I like crediting Margaret, but I don't quite think it fits the thought process of someone trying to come up with an 'official' family name. As important as Margaret was to the founding of the union, I really doubt a great-grandson of Margaret would decide to define their family in such a way after a female figure that technically didn't rule as Queen in her own right.
Referencing Norway I think is a good idea. Really emphasize the hereditary nature of the Kingdom of Norway. Norway itself might not be the best choice. Family names deriving from origin-places rarely were entire countries. They were often castles. One of the castles in Norway could fit. Akershus or Bohus are both options. Akershus is the royal castle in Oslo, Norway's capital. Bohus seems a bit more of a neutral name, since it's such a border castle. It's actually where many of those tolls down the Gota alv were collected. Officially naming the royal line after the castle be to try and emphasize that it was so important to the royal line, one kingdom shouldn;t be taxing another through it? Maybe? Not too sure Bohus sounds too good though.
Kalmar does sound good, although I'm not sure it's connected to the royal line enough to be chosen.
Maybe Dalaborg? That's where the Swedish nobility first submitted to Margaret/Olaf, arguably making it the point by which the personal union between all three countries began.
Referencing Norway I think is a good idea. Really emphasize the hereditary nature of the Kingdom of Norway. Norway itself might not be the best choice. Family names deriving from origin-places rarely were entire countries. They were often castles. One of the castles in Norway could fit. Akershus or Bohus are both options. Akershus is the royal castle in Oslo, Norway's capital. Bohus seems a bit more of a neutral name, since it's such a border castle. It's actually where many of those tolls down the Gota alv were collected. Officially naming the royal line after the castle be to try and emphasize that it was so important to the royal line, one kingdom shouldn;t be taxing another through it? Maybe? Not too sure Bohus sounds too good though.
Kalmar does sound good, although I'm not sure it's connected to the royal line enough to be chosen.
Maybe Dalaborg? That's where the Swedish nobility first submitted to Margaret/Olaf, arguably making it the point by which the personal union between all three countries began.
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Why not a term referring to the three kingdoms at once? House of Scandinavia/Scandza sounds cool.
In that same vein, perhaps something a bit more general like "the House of Norden" would work? If nothing else, it's their geographic location relative to the rest of Europe, so it would make sense from that perspective. As the monarchs of the Union become more involved in the affairs of their southern neighbors, it might do to show them who they're dealing with (at least as a general term) and reassure their subjects that they still remember their roots.
Surprised to see so much support for a Kalmar-derived name, hadn’t even considered that. I don’t think I’ll go for that unless Kalmar castle somehow became the royal residence, but I’ll keep it in mind.
Otherwise some interesting proposals. It will of course also depend on the specific monarch and circumstances when a name is officiallized.
A possibility of course is that there will be an “official” name but there might be regional variants, each of the Kingdoms would probably like to pose as the actual origin of the royal dynasty. So Denmark might want to highlight Margaret, Sweden it’s Swedish origins and Norway the fact that it spread from there to the two others.
Otherwise some interesting proposals. It will of course also depend on the specific monarch and circumstances when a name is officiallized.
A possibility of course is that there will be an “official” name but there might be regional variants, each of the Kingdoms would probably like to pose as the actual origin of the royal dynasty. So Denmark might want to highlight Margaret, Sweden it’s Swedish origins and Norway the fact that it spread from there to the two others.
I think that something like Trekroner or Gyldenløve (through before the Danish royal bastards used the name some Norwegian house used that name) would be best. The whole place name was a German introduction and Nordic nobility didn’t use it. The Danish royal family here is very little German influenced and such they’re more likely to adopt the same naming scheme as the local nobility.