The Romans discover the Americas
- Thread starter nova2010
- Start date
Nothing, even if by some miracle the Romans did find American (there were many reasons the Spanish/Norse got there whereas the Romans did not) there's no reason for Rome to do what everybody who asks this questions thinks will happen and colonize the place.
Anaxagoras
Banned
Nothing really happens. First of all, they would just assume that it was the eastern edge of Asia. Second of all, they would have lacked the ability to exploit any of the natural resources of the Americas and would have had a very difficult time trading with any of the natives in large enough quantities to be profitable. The natives of the Caribbean or eastern North America didn't really have anything the Romans wanted or needed. There would have been no point in capturing them for slavery, since they would have died very easily in Europe and the Romans had plenty of other "sources" much more readily available.
Assuming contact was made with the more advanced civilizations in Mesoamerica (very unlikely), I could see a trade in steel weapons and tools for gold, but this would only be undertaken in isolated cases by very enterprising souls, like the mysterious Greek traders who made it to China in the 2nd Century.
The oft-suggested idea of Roman colonization of the Americas is basically a non-starter. Why would they bother? There were plenty of places much easier and closer for them to colonize.
Assuming contact was made with the more advanced civilizations in Mesoamerica (very unlikely), I could see a trade in steel weapons and tools for gold, but this would only be undertaken in isolated cases by very enterprising souls, like the mysterious Greek traders who made it to China in the 2nd Century.
The oft-suggested idea of Roman colonization of the Americas is basically a non-starter. Why would they bother? There were plenty of places much easier and closer for them to colonize.
There are possible scenarios where Rome could get involved in the Americas significantly, but they assume a century-long buildup of naval capability and commercial interest that would make the Roman state hardly recognizable at the point their activity in the Americans becomes relevant.
I'd also say it would take a few centuries (300+) before they even considering going into the ocean too. Sure, they might have to adapt to the New World and the Native Americans, but those changes making the Romans hardly recognizable? They'd still be incredibly recognizable IMO.
Sometimes it seems the scenario of Romans discovering and exploiting the Americas on the Site is almost as prevalent as Sealion inspired threads.
The above posters get to the nub of the matter.
If one were to butterfly the practicalities that the Romans would need to make a transatlantic crossing, and further, butterfly away the equal challenges of getting back, you'd still need to butterfly away addressing the motivations that would keep the Romans coming back.
Even if some intrepid and (depending on your point of view) lucky or unlucky Romans somehow made it to the Americas and back, it would very likely have no more lasting impact than the Greek traders that supposedly made it to China. A tale of curiosity, but no signal impact on history. It may very well have become a lost tale (like so much else lost of the Romans) by medieval times so that it wouldn't even have had a chance to inspire or pique the curiosity of a would-be later-era Columbus.
Sometimes it seems the scenario of Romans discovering and exploiting the Americas on the Site is almost as prevalent as Sealion inspired threads.
The above posters get to the nub of the matter.
If one were to butterfly the practicalities that the Romans would need to make a transatlantic crossing, and further, butterfly away the equal challenges of getting back, you'd still need to butterfly away addressing the motivations that would keep the Romans coming back.
Even if some intrepid and (depending on your point of view) lucky or unlucky Romans somehow made it to the Americas and back, it would very likely have no more lasting impact than the Greek traders that supposedly made it to China. A tale of curiosity, but no signal impact on history. It may very well have become a lost tale (like so much else lost of the Romans) by medieval times so that it wouldn't even have had a chance to inspire or pique the curiosity of a would-be later-era Columbus.
As you, 9 Fang, and Anaxagoras have said, nothing. And yes it is annoying for many of us who are veterans of these debates, we have to remember that many aren't and there's constantly new people coming in and out who are also new to this genre. Noobs are generally attracted to the big WI cliches around Axis victories, the ACW, viewing colonization too much like a game of Civs, and rampant butterfly genocide. It tries us old guards' patience, but keeping this in mind will probably keep our blood from boiling too much.
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I'd like to amend it by adding the prefix 'Unless they find gold'.
I don't know if this is relevant, but one thing we need to consider is communications. I remember on that History Channel series "Big History", that the largest an empire can grow is to where it takes no more than 2 weeks for messages to get back to the capital, any further and the empire's government can't respond adequately to threats at the borders. That's why the Mongol Empire was as large as it was since it's army was entirely horseback and the Roman Empire had it's road system that's still in use today in many parts of Europe whereas the Aztec and Incan empires depended on runners. Look how much the European empires grew in the 19th century alone due to steamships that could sail against the winds and currents.
How long do you think it would take a ship in Antiquity to sail a message from North America to the closest Roman outpost or even Italy itself if a colony was in danger?
How long do you think it would take a ship in Antiquity to sail a message from North America to the closest Roman outpost or even Italy itself if a colony was in danger?
The Romans probably aren't expecting to find the New World, and the Romans were more into military conquest rather than exploration. The Roman party lucky enough to find the New World probably weren't prepared for a multi-month expedition across the ocean, and if by some miracle they survive the trip, they definitely aren't prepared for the ride home. I would think they would be hostile to the navites, unless they realize the indians are their hope for survival. If they don't receive help, they can't possibly have enough resources to make a return trip for a year as they discover the types of edible plants they can plant. Without animals of labor, this could be even more difficult, with the unfortunate bonus of needing to catch fish or small mammals for any chances of meat. They would only have a vague sense of direction for the return home, and if they leave some behind to start a colony, they would need to return. To sustain a colony you would need a constant supply of goods, and with Roman ships, it would be practically impossible.
There have been a number of threads about this. Feel free to search for them.
My best efforts on this score didn't result in more than a short lived network of coastal trading posts, supplying expensive luxury items back to the old world.
The most realistic assessments are 1) It would never happen; 2) Even if the Romans did make it, they'd never make it back; 3) Even if they made it back, it's staggeringly unlikely that anything would ever come of it.
So it goes.
My best efforts on this score didn't result in more than a short lived network of coastal trading posts, supplying expensive luxury items back to the old world.
The most realistic assessments are 1) It would never happen; 2) Even if the Romans did make it, they'd never make it back; 3) Even if they made it back, it's staggeringly unlikely that anything would ever come of it.
So it goes.
It's not impossible than Romans would have, in fact, arrived in America by chance. Their ships were not prepared for trans-atlantic travels but the Polynesian did long travels by the Pacific with more rudimentary ships, so it is not impossible.
However, there is a big difference in arriving to some area and exploiting/settling it. In fact, it's possible that a Roman ship arriving in America by chance (storms or something) would not know how to return to Rome. And even if this would happen, the 'discover' would have been unnoticed.
It is assumed by many scholars that Carthaginese ships arrived in many areas of Africa. They supposedly discovered the gorillas, so it is implied that they reached the delta of the Niger river. However 90% of their supposed discovers were unnoticed and had no consequences, as they were not able to exploit those areas.
However, there is a big difference in arriving to some area and exploiting/settling it. In fact, it's possible that a Roman ship arriving in America by chance (storms or something) would not know how to return to Rome. And even if this would happen, the 'discover' would have been unnoticed.
It is assumed by many scholars that Carthaginese ships arrived in many areas of Africa. They supposedly discovered the gorillas, so it is implied that they reached the delta of the Niger river. However 90% of their supposed discovers were unnoticed and had no consequences, as they were not able to exploit those areas.
See also
Earliest possible sustained trans-Atlantic contact?
Qhapaq Inka
Romans cross the Atlantic (
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
LXEagle
A (nother) Roman America Thread (
1 2 3)
JTrent82
Very Early colonization of the New World? (
1 2 3)
Arcvalons
Roman Colonization Of The Americas (
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page)
WrappedInShadows
Terra Nova Viridis (Roman New World) (
1 2 3 4)
Unconsensual
WI: Romans Discover the New World in the 2nd Century (
1 2 3)
AYC
Lots of discussion there to base this new one on.
Earliest possible sustained trans-Atlantic contact?
Qhapaq Inka
Romans cross the Atlantic (
LXEagle
A (nother) Roman America Thread (
JTrent82
Very Early colonization of the New World? (
Arcvalons
Roman Colonization Of The Americas (
WrappedInShadows
Terra Nova Viridis (Roman New World) (
Unconsensual
WI: Romans Discover the New World in the 2nd Century (
AYC
Lots of discussion there to base this new one on.
Exactly.
Could a Roman sailor survive in a wrecked ship, and arrive in the Americas? Certainly. Could enough sailors survive to set up a settlement? OK, maybe. Could that settlement introduce European agriculture and metallurgy, and survive? Much, much harder. I think it's possible, but it would take really, really exceptional circumstances, and no one liked the scenario I came up with once. Could they communicate back to the Old World/Rome. This really starts verging on ASB. Could Rome control any such colony? Nope. No way.
Teejay
Gone Fishin'
While Roman colonization would likely not happen, if Romans had made regular contact (through trade) with the Mesoamerica. However I can see an exchange of plants, technology and (maybe animals) occurring a millennium earlier than in OTL.
If that contact had continued into the latter half of the 1st millennium CE into the 2nd millennium BCE.
The people making this trade with the Mesoamericans would not be Romans presay, rather Berbers, Gallo and Hispano-Romans.
To be honest, after musing on this I have speculated that the getting back may be the least ASB bit of such a contact. Given that this means the initial crossing was survived, the sailors now have a rough idea of how large a distance they are dealing with. And any Roman sailor who have sailed in Britain will know about the westerlies.
So if you got sailors who have sailed around Britain, you got a rough idea of how much you'll need in provisions, and a weather system to aim for.
That doesn't mean their odds are good, but they are far better than they were coming the other way. However, nothing there will motivate them to come back. I am not sure how much gold the mesoamericans were producing in Roman times, and I can't think of any other motivation that would lead to the kind of sustained effort this needs.
Any chance that Carthaginians and/or Celts (Veneti?) might have discovered America? Some of them might have had a motive to go, simply to get away from the Romans.