The Pale and the Purple Rose

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Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
Soundtrack: Orlando Gibbons - Now Each Flowery Bank of May

May 1471 [1]

*Rochester* *dawn at Edward IV's camp outside the city* *the city is clearly under siege given the way that the soldiers are milling about, the guns are quiet, but there are clear marks in the city's walls that show damage sustained during the siege* *we see the bishop of Rochester emerging from the city, riding a donkey [2]*
*cut to Edward IV's tent*
Thomas Rotherham, Bishop of Rochester: *bows to Edward* your Highness, Rochester pledges its utmost fealty towards you and yours.
Edward IV: *acidly* and such utmost fealty did not extend to bringing me Prince Edward?
Rotherham: I cannot speak for the behaviour of the city, sire. Until this morning, I was held a prisoner in the castle.
Edward IV: has he taken to imprisoning clergymen now?
Rotherham: it was only so long as I refused to renounce my loyalty to you, sire.
George, Duke of Clarence: *sarcastically* and yet here you are, are we to assume that that means that you have turned on us, Milord Bishop?
Rotherham: as you have turned on your own brother, not once, but twice [3]. No doubt history will remember your Highness as the Prince of Weathercocks.
George: *looks furious* *starts storming over to the bishop*
Edward: *bursts out laughing at the image* Prince of Weathercocks...that's very funny *nods at Rotherham* that fails to explain the conundrum, milord, of you are here if he is there.
Rotherham: I assure your Highness, it is nothing more than a miracle, like the angel rescuing Saint Peter[4], I awoke to find myself free.
George: *mutters subversively* conveniently.
Rotherham: none has doubted your conversion, sir, although many may suspect it.
Edward IV: and the queen, the prince, his wife, and my sister [3]? Are we to believe that they were suddenly inspired by a fit of mercy and decided to await us to enter the town?
Rotherham: as to a fit of mercy, I would remind your Highness that it behoves a king to be merciful. None questioned yours when you spared the life of your brother after capturing him at Colchester. Although, as I say, there is a murmuration that it was less of a capture and more of a defection.
George: and who is saying this?
Rotherham: the queen. The prince. In fact, were it not for their mercy, I don't doubt that your wife and mother[-in-law] that you abandoned to their mercy should have been the Saint Silas to my Saint Paul [5].
George: *stunned silence*
Edward IV: as I understand what you are saying, Milord, the queen, her son, the Countess of Warwick and her daughters, are no longer in Rochester?
George: how did you understand that? He's been as clear as mud!
Rotherham: that would be correct, sire.
Edward IV: and you don't know where they have gone?
Rotherham: on the contrary, sire. I am well aware of where they said they were going to go-
George: London. We've left it aband-
Rotherham: near enough, sir. To Windsor, sir. To join the king, your Highness.
Edward IV: to advance on London?
Rotherham: that would be my opinion, sire. But I am not a soldier.
*while Edward is clearly digesting this, a lackey hurriedly enters the tent* *he's out of breath*
Lackey: from Lord Northumberland, sire.
George: *annoyed* what do the Percies want?
Lackey: Milord Clifford's brother has raised the Lancastrian standard at Hartlepool, sire. He is rallying the north. With him are Lord Dacre [6] and Lord de Ros He and the Bishop of Durham [7] are mustering their men, but they warn that if not dealt with swiftly, this will see the whole of England in flames.
Edward: *looks conflicted about which direction to run in* tell the army we march north.
*a second lackey leaves tent*
George: and you just abandon the siege?
Edward: there's no point in laying siege to a town, George, if the only reason for the siege is no longer in it.
George: you're marching north. That Lancastrian bastard is going to Windsor- you heard Rochester-
Edward: *smirks* exactly. We know where he'll be when we come back down south.
George: *muttering* if we come back

*fade to black*


[1] for argument's sake let's assume that Edward of Westminster's relief of Rochester was on the last days of April
[2] much as this sounds like a joke on Edward of Westminster's part, it was actually standard practice that, if acting in an official capacity, a clergyman wasn't allowed to ride on a horse, but either had to travel by litter or on a donkey
[3] turned on Edward IV for Warwick, then turned on Edward of Westminster (his brother-in-law, and who is still holding the duchess of Clarence) for the Yorkists
[4] Acts 12:3-19. The apostle Peter is imprisoned by Herod
[5] also from Acts, where the pair are imprisoned in Philippi. An earthquake strikes and the doors of the prison are opened, and were it not for Paul's assurance, the jailer would've killed himself, believing that all the prisoners had escaped.
[6] this is an example of why the war of the Roses is called the Cousins' War. Henry VI ruled that the 7e Lord Dacre's wife (the daughter of the 6e Lord Dacre) be allowed to succeed to her grandfather's titles ahead of her uncle. Lord Dacre (né Fiennes)'s home base is at Herstmonceux, Surrey (the family also has holdings in Sussex). However, by right of his wife, he also has several lovely castles in Cumbria, Northumberland and on the borders. From what I can make out, Lady Dacre's "disinherited uncle" sided with Edward. Lord de Ros is the nephew (via his mother) of Edward's dead "butcher of England", the earl of Worcester. Lord Clifford is the heir of Lord Bromvlete, which gives him considerable estates in the East Riding of Yorkshire. Ergo, combined with their own holdings in Cumberland, Neville holdings in Westmorland, and you can see why this is cause for concern.
[7] Lawrence Booth, formerly Marguerite d'Anjou's chancellor and according to some sources, Chancellor of Cambridge University, although some sources point out that he lost that post under the Yorks
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my god what a funny chapter, please Kellan find a way to advance the career of the bishop of Rochester, his answers are sooooo funny, he seemed to have entered a state of "you know I don't care who you are... " while I was reading I was in the throes of laughter, not even a ranking cardinal would dare respond like that to a monarch and a prince, my god this bishop has the attributes to make a career in Rome ( especially his ass face )
 

Kellan Sullivan

Dragonboy said:
Great chapter! Dear lord i hate George so much
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I doubt you're the only one :p

eliamartin65 said:
George can choke.
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now, where would the fun be in that?

Nuraghe said:
my god what a funny chapter, please Kellan find a way to advance the career of the bishop of Rochester, his answers are sooooo funny, he seemed to have entered a state of "you know I don't care who you are... " while I was reading I was in the throes of laughter, not even a ranking cardinal would dare respond like that to a monarch and a prince, my god this bishop has the attributes to make a career in Rome ( especially his ass face )
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thank you. Rotherham did end up as chancellor of England under Edward IV, and archbishop of York from 1480, so perhaps when Cardinal Bourchier dies in 1486, Rotherham either gets tipped for the cardinal's hat (that went to Morton OTL in 1493) or at least promoted to the see of Canterbury (which pretty much ensures a cardinal's hat). Besides, if a butcher's boy from Ipswich (Wolsey) can climb the rungs to be considered for pope (at least in his own mind), what's to stop Rotherham (who seems to have been minor gentry at best, bourgeoisie at worst) from reaching so high?

As to his speaking to a monarch- in dealing with Edward he's respectful, in dealing with George...less so. Although his responses might be more his own outrage at being called a traitor (when he's been loyal and suffered for it) by a traitor to both sides.

King of Danes said:
Get wrecked, George. Hopefully he sees as much humiliation as possible
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well, Rotherham is reporting to him that the Lancastrian party views him as a traitor/coward (so I doubt they'd welcome him back with open arms), and Edward doesn't exactly seem to be rolling out the welcome wagon. If anything, George has pissed off Edward IV, the Lancasters and the Earl of Warwick (because nobody seriously believes he's in this for anyone except himself, do they?)
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
I doubt you're the only one :p


now, where would the fun be in that?


thank you. Rotherham did end up as chancellor of England under Edward IV, and archbishop of York from 1480, so perhaps when Cardinal Bourchier dies in 1486, Rotherham either gets tipped for the cardinal's hat (that went to Morton OTL in 1493) or at least promoted to the see of Canterbury (which pretty much ensures a cardinal's hat). Besides, if a butcher's boy from Ipswich (Wolsey) can climb the rungs to be considered for pope (at least in his own mind), what's to stop Rotherham (who seems to have been minor gentry at best, bourgeoisie at worst) from reaching so high?

As to his speaking to a monarch- in dealing with Edward he's respectful, in dealing with George...less so. Although his responses might be more his own outrage at being called a traitor (when he's been loyal and suffered for it) by a traitor to both sides.


well, Rotherham is reporting to him that the Lancastrian party views him as a traitor/coward (so I doubt they'd welcome him back with open arms), and Edward doesn't exactly seem to be rolling out the welcome wagon. If anything, George has pissed off Edward IV, the Lancasters and the Earl of Warwick (because nobody seriously believes he's in this for anyone except himself, do they?)
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Emh Kellan, Wolsey technically got 7 votes in the conclave that ultimately elected Hadrian VI Otl, so his belief wasn't that far-fetched, for the rest, a small reform would be needed in the composition of the college of cardinals ( which was planned together with a general reform of the church, but between corrupt popes such as Sixtus IV, Innocent VIII and the Italian wars, the issue ended up forgotten ) furthermore, Cardinal Bakócz was also considered several times as a serious candidate for the Petrine throne, so it is not so impossible to imagine something like this
 
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Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
oh?
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yes, let me explain better, after each election of a pontiff, the pope in office could create new cardinals to balance his government ( especially if the curia could be against him, see Rodrigo that Otl created 12 cardinals from scratch because he had been elected for a very short number , so his control over the curia was extremely shaky ), Furthermore, many post-Western Schism popes wanted to balance French influence by creating new cardinals for the other European powers ( primarily to make friends of the Iberian kingdoms and also England, which without the War of the Roses would have had one more cardinal At your service )
 
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Kellan Sullivan

Nuraghe said:
yes, let me explain better, after each election of a pontiff, the pope in office could create new cardinals to balance his government ( especially if the curia could be against him, see Rodrigo that Otl created 12 cardinals from scratch because he had been elected for a very short number , so his control over the curia was extremely shaky ), Furthermore, many post-Western Schism popes wanted to balance French influence by creating new cardinals for the other European powers ( primarily to make friends of the Iberian kingdoms and also England, which without the War of the Roses would have had one more cardinal At your service )
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Of the OTL popes which would be the most likely one to name a second cardinal? Since between Bourchier being named in 1467 and Morton (several years after Bourchier's death) there were none
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
Of the OTL popes which would be the most likely one to name a second cardinal? Since between Bourchier being named in 1467 and Morton (several years after Bourchier's death) there were none
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it depends on who you want to become Pope Paul II's successor ( it's also when you want him to die, given that Otl died in 1471 at just 54 years old ), wait, I'll go do some research on this, okay ?
 

Nuraghe

Nuraghe said:
it depends on who you want to become Pope Paul II's successor ( it's also when you want him to die, given that Otl died in 1471 at just 54 years old ), wait, I'll go do some research on this, okay ?
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then after having given a quick look at the composition of the various consistories of Otl Sixtus IV (created 35 cardinals, coming from four nations: 22 Italians, 7 French, 4 Spanish, 1 Portuguese and 1 German) Innocent VIII (with 13 cardinals, coming from four nations: 10 Italians, 2 French and 1 Polish) and finally Alexander VI with 43 new cardinals, coming from 8 nations: 16 Italians, 16 Spanish, 6 French, 1 English, 1 Polish, 1 Cypriot, 1 Hungarian and 1 German , I can say that Rodrigo is the most international, although a Paul II who lives longer may still lead to a few more cardinals in the curia
 

Kellan Sullivan

Nuraghe said:
then after having given a quick look at the composition of the various consistories of Otl Sixtus IV (created 35 cardinals, coming from four nations: 22 Italians, 7 French, 4 Spanish, 1 Portuguese and 1 German) Innocent VIII (with 13 cardinals, coming from four nations: 10 Italians, 2 French and 1 Polish) and finally Alexander VI with 43 new cardinals, coming from 8 nations: 16 Italians, 16 Spanish, 6 French, 1 English, 1 Polish, 1 Cypriot, 1 Hungarian and 1 German , I can say that Rodrigo is the most international, although a Paul II who lives longer may still lead to a few more cardinals in the curia
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I imagine that we might see a Burgundian cardinal or two as well, if it remains outside of the Habsburg reach?
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
I imagine that we might see a Burgundian cardinal or two as well, if it remains outside of the Habsburg reach?
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difficult, I just checked and the only two Burgundian cardinals of the period Otl, are precisely Hadrian VI himself and a certain Willem Enckenwoirt, made cardinal by Hadrian himself, before them I didn't find any cardinal, if we exclude Albert of Louvain from the 12th century

but never say never, especially when dealing with Rome
 
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Kellan Sullivan

Nuraghe said:
difficult, I just checked and the only two Burgundian cardinals of the period Otl, are precisely Hadrian VI himself and a deer Willem Enckenwoirt, made cardinal by Hadrian himself, before them I didn't find any cardinal, if we exclude Albert of Louvain from the 12th century

but never say never, especially when dealing with Rome
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wasn't there a de la Marck cardinal from Burgundy as well (although he might be classed as German)
 

Kellan Sullivan

Nuraghe said:
difficult, I just checked and the only two Burgundian cardinals of the period Otl, are precisely Hadrian VI himself and a deer Willem Enckenwoirt, made cardinal by Hadrian himself, before them I didn't find any cardinal, if we exclude Albert of Louvain from the 12th century

but never say never, especially when dealing with Rome
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Granvelle- Felipe II's advisor- and Guillaume III de Croy (Karl V's) were also given the cardinal's hats
 

Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
also, Paul II created Jean Jouffroy (d.1473) a cardinal in 1461, he was bishop of Arras and Albi, born in Besançon (then in Burgundy)
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but it is considered French though, as he made his career under Louis XI

I think we should stop before derailing your story, I know the right place to continue this discussion 😉
 
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Nuraghe

Kellan Sullivan said:
his support of the house of Anjou and involvement with the duc de Guyenne makes Jouffroy an interesting POV for a chapter, no?
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Yes of course, especially if it also allows you to play with the other cardinals of France and Spider's court politics furthermore he also had links with the Bourbons, strangely I didn't understand why he didn't get the position of papal legate in Avignon ( because in that period the See was vacant, so in theory the place was free )
 
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