From what ive heard Harold is a Socdem, but the Party is Hardcore Socialist, which is what that repsents.
Yeah apparently so.
The New Order: Last Days of Europe - An Axis Victory Cold War Mod for HoIIV
- Thread starter Lonely Knightess
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Yeah apparently so.
He's socdem, his party is categorised as libsoc because it contains everything from Demcoms to a handful of Liberals who don't like the NDL. Thus, Libsoc.
And yes Red Monarchy path is gone.
@chankljp: TV Tropes mentioned that one of the reasons why people take issue with Bennett so fiercely is an increasing perception that working with conservative individuals on improving race relations for the better actually harms race relations in the long run.
I was the one that put that entry based on my observations regarding Bennett and his detractors, and the discussion on this is rooted in modern day discourses on race relations in the US and police brutality and is honestly more suited for chat.
Dudes, there is a wholesome ending for George Wallace if he doesn't tries to end desegregation.
An Edit:
George Wallace wasn't a hardline segregationist, he basically run as a status quo candidate and lost, thus he increased his segregationist rhetoric to be elected on his second try.
All his acts in favour of segregation were made for political exibitionism and not aimed at segregation per se but for "states rights", that is why he's not as bad as Strom Thurmond.
Intrestingly, the devs have hinted that this ends up creating a proto-alt right counterculture in the US as hardcore racists turn toYockey. Perhaps while Sane!Wallace may look somewhat decent, lead to the rise of the NPPY's 76 candiate.....
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yeah i am wondering why the massive desert where all thire coast was is not mentioned at all since it would be hit second hardest (Croatia is the first) unless i am missing it
i agree I mean the instant thire troop go and fight turkey the partisan will rise up including one of two shadowy monarchist factions of the Balkans. so it might happen
Words cannot describe how excited I am to see Greece; I might play something else other than Russian unifiers for once.
To make things clear, Napoleon Zervas was a proud Venizelist. If there's partisans in Crete (and I bet there are), they're still going to be fanatical Venizelists, given that Venizelos himself was a Cretan.
To make things clear, Napoleon Zervas was a proud Venizelist. If there's partisans in Crete (and I bet there are), they're still going to be fanatical Venizelists, given that Venizelos himself was a Cretan.
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chankljp
Donor
The fate of all the major Collab leaders in a HMMLR victory:
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Alec Douglas Home:
Death via firing squad. The collaborator Prime Minister will spend his last moments alternating between wanting to shout at the HMMLR judges about how they are hotheaded fools that have now doomed England since the moment the Germans got back on their feet, they will come crush them once and for all until there is no England left anymore this time.... And regretting that he really should have used his position to help the resistance the same way that Auchinlek did by smuggling documents out of Westminster and subtly resisting the Germans from inside Parliament; And finally, him rationalizing how while he might have been a collaborator, he and his government did what they must from within to keep the German jackboot from coming down too hard on all of England... His final thoughts before getting executed was wishing that he could have taken all the things that he had done back.
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A.K. Chesterton:
(Pro-NDL option) Exiled to Germany. Chesterton would be marched to the pier for deportation by a resistance soldier... A dark skinned resistance soldier, no less! Much the the hardcore fascist's annoyance. In fact, Chesterton would have preferred to have been given the 'honor' of dying for the cause, as he will now be forced to watch England corrupted by the 'communist savages' and 'obsolete liberals'. With him being convinced that eventually, the English people will beg the Germans to come rescuing them again from all the degeneracy. Before boarding the ship, Chesterton insisted on leaving a 'final gift' for the dark skinned resistance soldier and the whole nation.... By spiting on said soldier. The later then decided that on behalf of Free England, he should give the 'fascist wanker' a goodbye gift as well... By punching him right in the face and breaking his nose.
(Pro-SLP & MSA option) Death by hanging. Despite all of his 'dying for the cause' bravado as seen in the exile option, as soon as it was announced that he will be sentenced to death, he was instantly silenced and turned pale. As he was escorted to the gallows he collapsed on the ground in fear, and had to be dragged forward. He was allowed to say his last words, but before he was able to even finish his first sentence, he was dropped, but the rope was too short to snap his neck, resulting in him just dangling on the rope in agonising pain for minutes before he finally died from suffocation.
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Bernard Montgomery:
(Pro-NDL option) Permanent exile from England, without it stating were Montgomery will be going to. As the disgraced Field Marshal walked towards the pier to board the boat that will take him away from England forever, he mentally went over the suitcase of personal belongings that he was allowed to take with him: An old Browning pistol that he had with him throughout his military career in service of this country... And once used by him to shoot a HMMLR assassin; His old uniform... that he had wore in all his meetings with the Collaborationist cabinet; And all the medals and decorations that he was rewarded in his many years of service, both for his heroic actions fighting against the German invaders in WW2.... And those given to him by the Germans for destroying Resistance hideouts in service of the Collabs. It was at that moment that the realisation hit him: He wasn't just carry a sutcase, but literally symbols of the sins he had committed against his nation. And for the remainder of his life, the crimes against his fellow Englishmen are going to haunt him forever. As the ship left the port, he turned around to see the flag of a now freed England proudly waving from a nearby building. Tears fell down his cheeks, and his final words to him homeland being a simple, 'I am sorry'.
(Pro-MSA option) Death via firing squad. While the resistance ultimately gave Montgomery the death penalty, he does acknowleage to himself that they at least gave him actual legal representation and a chance to defend himself. Something that if the situation was reversed, the Collabs would not have to the HMMLR rebels. Before his execution, the Field Marshal wondered if history had gone differently, would be have been celebrated as the nation's hero instead? With him justifying to himself that he never collaborated with the Germans out of fear for what they might have done to him, but instead, it did it for the sake of his nation and his family. With Montgomery thinking to himself how all of this is futile, his only hope is that when the Reich inevitably returns to crush England, their vengeance would not be too harsh on the people. As he was brought before a firing squad, his last words were 'God save the Queen!' before getting shot.
(Pro-SLP option) Corrective forced labor. Montgomery gets sent to rebuild the war-torn country with the other Collab POWs. He actually wish that the resistance would have just shot him instead of putting him though this humiliation. He overheard two of the guards talking to each other, with them saying that they have been given orders to make sure Montgomery doesn't die from getting overworked due to his old age, as they want to make sure that he serve out his sentence. As such, he will not be digging holes, but to perform the much less physically strenuous task of install electric wires instead. The Field Marshal got so furious hearing this that he grabbed a shovel and started to dig with his fellow POWs, much to the shock of the guards.
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Gerald Templer, Michael Carver, Roland Gibbs, Geoffrey Baker (Generals in the collaborationist army):
(Pro-SLP option) Permanent exile from England, without it stating were they will be going to. As the group of generals waited for their plane at the airport under guard, they chatted amongst themselves, sharing anecdotes about their military careers, remembering funny stories, laughing at each others jokes, etc. While they were unhappy about getting being expelled from their homeland, but the camaraderie they they shared with those that they will be going into exile with made the experience easier. They even engaged in political discussion about the future of the England, on if the country will become a liberal democracy again or maybe embrace socialism... As one of the flights arrived, the HMMLR soldiers helped the former generals carry their their bags and suitcases onboard. The collab generals stood up, saluted each other one last time, and boarded the plane, with Templer thinking about how once he has reach the new country that he will be exiled to, he will make a living by creating a military museum showing antiques from the war, telling their side of the story and keeping their memories alive.
(Pro-MSA & SLP option) Death via firing squad. As the Collab generals were all marched out to the courtyard, the displayed the iconic English stiff upper lip, engaging in small talk with each other as if they were on their way to dinner intead of to their own execution. As they were brought before the firing squad one at a time, they were each allowed to say their final words, some referenced God; Others referenced the Queen; A couple referenced the King, and one begged for forgiveness. In the end, there were will killed to the last man.
(Pro-NDL option) Dismissed with disgrace (Known in the US as 'dishonourable discharge') from the military. All the officers that had served under the collabs got stripped of their ranks, their pensions revoked, and getting kicked out of the English military for life. As they were let out of the courtroom, some were ashamed of betraying the country; Others were confident that they having done the right thing given the circumstances; A few were able to make self-deprecating jokes about their situation as the natural result of being on the losing side of the conflict. Those officers that were deemed as not being guilty of war crimes were allowed to go home and return to their civilian lives, while those that were guilty were imprisoned.... One of those on the side that ended up getting imprisoned being Field Marshal Templer, as he was assigned a job to work on in prison, he chuckled at the irony: After all, as a soldier, like always, he was just following orders.
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Harold MacMillan:
(Pro-NDL option) Permanent exile from England, without it stating were he will be going to. As the former Chancellor of the Exchequer walked towards the plane at the airport, he tried to delay the inevitable by walking as slowly as he could, as he considered himself a victim of being on the wrong side of history, acting on factors outside of his control. Getting onboard the plane, he wondered if the rebels even succeed earlier while the German threat was still present; Would HMMLR have done better if he had joined them instead? In the end, he concluded that while his intentions were maybe good, he was at the wrong time to put them into practice. And the wrong place. Before entering the cabin, MacMillan bowed and said his final goodbyes to England, hoping that it will actually be be a free nation and stay that way this time, even if he have no place in it.
(Pro-MSA option) Death by hanging. Macmillan was simply unable to accept the harsh sentencing given to him, with him alternating between pleading for mercy and being furious. As he was walked towards the gallows, there was just stunned silence. Even as the noose was put around his neck, he was still convinced that there must have been a mistake: Surely Stirling doesn't have that much influence within HMMLR! And surely the new government is not run by cruel dictators and heartless despots that would hang a decent man who have never actually killed anyone? His final words to his executioners was a simple, 'Why?'
(Pro-SLP option) Allowed to stay in England, but barred from political participation for life. Macmillan was frustrated at the punishment, but accepted that things could have been worst. Besides, even if the Collabs had won, he was most likely going to retire in a few years anyway, most likely without accomplishing anything of worth no matter how much he would have tried to introduce reforms to the country. Now no longer in politics, he returned to his family bussiness working as a book publisher, with him taking advantage of the freedom of speech that England now enjoys to write an autobiography, telling the world about his role as the reformist inside the Collaborationist government, and how he tried to save the rotten system for the sake of England. With his goal being to make sure that the public and later history will not remember him as a fascist stooge.
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Reginald Maudling:
(Pro-NDL option) Found not guilty. After getting released from prison, Maudling returned to his old office, which was in the same state as he left it. Pouring himself a glass of whiskey, Maudling made his plans of getting back into politics in the newly freed England despite his ties with the Collabs. It will be hard making new connections to climb his way back to the top in the new political environment, since even if the new administration have let him off the hook, they will not forget how he was once a member of the the Collaborationist government. With him wonder that maybe he should have defected to HMMLR after all... Still at least he still have a chance at getting back into politics.
(Pro-MSA option) Exiled to the United States. As he was on board his connection flight to America via Reykjavik, Maudling wondered why he was getting exiled at all? With him coming to the conclusion that this is because the new government is afraid he will spread his ideas of fighting for freedom to the English people. Using his old political connections, he learned that the NDL was going to let him off with just a slap on the wrist, while the SLP would have been satisfied with him getting barred from political office. It was Stirling and his ultra-hardliners that insisted on exiling him after even they were unable to justify shooting him. And if the hardliners are the ones calling the shots in the new 'Free' England.... The liberal reformer feared for the future of England under a harsh and unforgiving regime controled by the hardliners.
(Pro-SLP option) Allowed to stay in England, but barred from political office for life. No longer being allowed to take part in politics, Maudling ended up working a boring middle-class office job at a financial company. Filling in paper work, doing reports... etc, at his white collar cubicle. With him thinking bitterly about how despite all their talks about 'freedom' and 'democracy', HMMLR was no different than the Collabs that they have replaced when it came to those that they considered as a threat to their new order. With the disgraced former politician getting so depressed that he doesn't even care when he noticed someone was embezzling money from his employers. After all, he should just keep his head down, and this wasn't his problem.... He also fell into alcoholism due to his depression as he starting drinking an entire bottle of whiskey at work.
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Margaret Thatcher, and the other MPs in the Royal Party:
Expelled from the House of Commons, but otherwise given a pardon. Both the NDL and SLP agreed that these MPs haven't been involved in anything too terrible besides voting on maybe a few questionable laws, but it was nothing worthy giving them serious punishment for. Stirling and his hardliners wanted to just kill them all, but the others overruled him, refusing to let him destabilise their new regime with a massive orgy of violence that cannot be legally justified. Besides, these MP will never have a future in politics due to their ties to the Collabs and the Royal Party anyway. In the end, the hardliners relented, as they should save the bullets for important people that are actually worth killing.
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Considering his death was sped up by his drinking IOTL, this is honestly not that surprising.
chankljp
Donor
For me personally, when making the decision in my first playthough as HMMLR's England, I ended up picking all the pro-NDL options in the Oxford Trials, since the first general election after the Civil War is already going to be a tight run between NDL and the SLP.
But if I were to pick the judgement based purely on my personal sense of justice without political consideration, the decisions would have been:
A.K. Chesterton: Death by hanging. Seriously, if Douglas-Home gets shot, I simply cannot justified an unrepentant hardcore fascists like Chesterton who was in-charge of the Blackshirts not at least getting a punishment that is at least on-par with the one recived by the Collab's PM.
Bernard Montgomery: Corrective forced labor From what we see of him, Monty was not an evil person. And given that the TNO world is one in which the Nazis somehow managed to successfully carry out Operation Sealion, his conclusion that the German goliath could not be fought, and can only be appeased and placated was understandable.Nonetheless, he needs to be punished for taking up arms against the freedom fighters, instead of just retiring and refusing to serve the Collabs.
Generals in the collaborationist army: Dismissed with disgrace. Seriously, you cannot just take every officer above the rank of colonel and exile/shoot them. Given that those who had committed war crimes does get imprisoned, I think that this is the best option to take.
Harold MacMillan: Allowed to stay in England, but barred from political participation for life. In general, I just really dislike the 'exile' option as a punishment. If you really think that one of the citizens in your own country is guilty of a crime, then punish them accordingly, instead of kicking them out in hopes of never seeing them again. This is not the Middle Ages, after all. In the case of MacMillan, while he might have been a member of the Collab government's cabinet, he has never been in a position where he was responsible for any crimes or atrocities. As such, he doesn't really deserve to be punished too harshly.
Reginald Maudling: Found not guilty. Come on... When even Mr 'KILL KILL ALL THE COLLABS' Stirling couldn't come up with a justification to shoot or even imprison you, you know that this is a guy that does not deserve to be punished. By being an openly outspoken liberal within the the Collab government, you cannot even accused him of lacking courage. Instead, more like keeping a voice for liberty alive in case the resistance fail.
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He also tries to desert when the civil war starts but is too afraid to do it.
chankljp
Donor
I could see MacMillan trying to and perhaps succeeding in developing a popular reputation similar to Speer in OTL: In that he will be viewed as 'The Collab Who Said Sorry'/'The good Collaborator'. With him being someone that would have his legacy hotly debated by historians, and maybe having users on the TNO world's version of AH.com coming up with TLs in which the Collabs won the civil war, and him trying to work under the Germans to introduce as much reforms as he can. While his detractors will say that he was only saying sorry and claimed that he had seriously considered joining HMMLR only after the fact, and was an opportunist at heart.
In fact, I would say that a MacMillan in a HMMLR victory TL was an expy of OTL Speer.... Except that unlike OTL Speer everything he says would have been 100% true. Too bad that the people in-universe have no way of knowing that he really did meant it.
I would LOVE to watch an in-universe documentary produce by say, either National Geographic or PBS, in which they interview all the surviving collabs in say... the late 70s or 80s, after the now reunified Great Britain is prospering under either the NDL or SLP, with the Germans in fact NOT having returned to crush the island under the jackboot. Like... I want to see what they are going to say. Will they admit that they have been mistaken and regret their actions? Would they defend themselves and say that Britain only managed to be doing well now because they had kept the Germans placated until the country is in a position to reassert their independence? Or would they STILL insist that HMMLR has doomed England, and that the Germans would come crush them again any day now?
One thing is for sure: Someone like A.K. Chesterton would be screaming about how he was correct in siding with the Nazis, and that England is full of 'degeneracy' and race-mixing now.
these were some of the best-written event i had ever seen in tno they were sad and bittersweet but i liked them also i remember when you could exile Douglas home
i even saved and went back to get screenshots of all of them so if anyone want to see the events i have them.
So I've decided to rank the warlords on who has the most chance of defeating Germany in the 2WRW using previous analysis regarding difficulty playing each warlord+peaceful reunification combos as a basis to discuss my observations
Ranking system:
For one, I feel Serov is the second least likely to incorporate many of the leaders that far right Komi could if given the option to if I factor in his characterization(the least likely to incorporate anyone would be Tabby). He still sees himself as a Communist so I don't think he would have anything to do with Onega, Samara, and Vtyka's leader pools. The only leader pool I feel he would be ok with integrating is Volgoda. Adding to the fact that most far right unifiers minus Shaf and Magadan can't peacefully intergrate other parts of Russia and that's pretty much realistically the only leader pool he would have, and he will also have to rebuild Siberia and the far east, who are in for a extra round of devastation because he has to fight his way to the Pacific, meaning he has more to rebuild.
Also iirc National Bolshevik Serov(Serov that acts more as a uber-nationalistic tankie or a totalist as possible and empowers right-ordosocialism at every turn) is stronger economically but Crypto-Strasserite/Natsynd/Red Fascist!Serov(Serov that acts as fascistically as possible and empowers right-ordosocialism at every turn) is somewhat weaker economically. Now characterization wise, he might tilt more towards the former, which convinced me to bump him up a level, but don't expect a Ordosocialist Russia to fully retake the old pre-WWII borders unless under a skilled player.
Ranking system:
- Focus on military, extremely strong military=more chance of crushing the Reich. This allows Tukh, who really has one opportunity for peaceful reunification, and Omsk, who has none, to rise to the very top
- In some rare cases, chances of incorporating new officers and commanders, this rank is determined by who would be most likely to incorporate new officers based on their characterization and behavior. This is why Shafarevich ranks so high: I see him as the most pragmatic of the Komi far right and the most likely to say yes to incorporating all the defeated enemies. And combined with the fact that he can incorporate Magadan and he might be a major player.
- Ability to peacefully reunify is a certified plus for everyone that can, as it means and incorporating leaders peacefully + a more developed region of Russia that won't be wrecked by further violence
- Ability to run into a CANON unifier on the regional or superregional stage they can peacefully reunify with, anyone who can peacefully reunify with WRRF, Sverdlovsk, Novosiberisk gets a point in their favor because since canon=a certain tilt in the direction of certain factions unifying a region. If someone from the west can reunify peacefully with Sverdlovsk at regional AND Novosiberisk at superregional, they get the most points here. This also makes it that only someone from central siberia or west russia can fully benefit from this as there are no one in the far east capable of unifying with both WRRF and Novosiberisk
- Societal development: This is why Chita ranks lower despite it's ability to unify with Vyatka and Novosiberisk, they are stuck with crippling Poverty hindering research efforts and end TNO1 with a mediocre economy at best
- Ability to create nukes. This is why the Dekabristy rank considerably lower despite potentially being able to peacefully reunify with Petlin Magadan.
- This takes best-case scenarios into practice. Meaning that every hypothetical peaceful unification would be sucessful and every offer to incorporate new leaders is an affirmative unless something in the leader's personality and characterization overrides that offer
- This does not take OFN intervention into consideration, meaning it's Nazis vs. new russia one on one. For WRRF's rank think of a hypothetical scenario where the OFN does not make their canon intervention
- Player only mechanics like buyouts do not count in anyone's favor because they are extremely gamey and frankly in some cases unrealistic.
For one, I feel Serov is the second least likely to incorporate many of the leaders that far right Komi could if given the option to if I factor in his characterization(the least likely to incorporate anyone would be Tabby). He still sees himself as a Communist so I don't think he would have anything to do with Onega, Samara, and Vtyka's leader pools. The only leader pool I feel he would be ok with integrating is Volgoda. Adding to the fact that most far right unifiers minus Shaf and Magadan can't peacefully intergrate other parts of Russia and that's pretty much realistically the only leader pool he would have, and he will also have to rebuild Siberia and the far east, who are in for a extra round of devastation because he has to fight his way to the Pacific, meaning he has more to rebuild.
Also iirc National Bolshevik Serov(Serov that acts more as a uber-nationalistic tankie or a totalist as possible and empowers right-ordosocialism at every turn) is stronger economically but Crypto-Strasserite/Natsynd/Red Fascist!Serov(Serov that acts as fascistically as possible and empowers right-ordosocialism at every turn) is somewhat weaker economically. Now characterization wise, he might tilt more towards the former, which convinced me to bump him up a level, but don't expect a Ordosocialist Russia to fully retake the old pre-WWII borders unless under a skilled player.
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I just started thinking about this. In TNO, Greenland is a part of the US. Would they be a territory or a full-fledged state in this world? It would be interesting to see Congressmen with Danish names in D.C.
Edit: as I think more about it, they're almost surely a territory because I don't believe they're represented on the political map the US has where it shows the Senators for each state.
Edit: as I think more about it, they're almost surely a territory because I don't believe they're represented on the political map the US has where it shows the Senators for each state.
nowhere near enough people for statehood, it'll be a permeant territory
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