The Malouines War: France in the Falklands Redux

[L'amateur d'aéroplanes]

I'll do a draft with automatic translation when I'm up to it.

For the French fleet, a point of support in the Caribbean and very modestly Guyana but it would be necessary to ask London for authorization to use Ascension Island. And Brazil could monitor the movement of the fleet here. Did we have the equivalent of this maritime crisis between France and Brazil in this story?

Lobster War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Conflit de la langouste entre la France et le Brésil — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

Brazilian Boeing B-17 flies over the French destroyer Tartu (D636) during the 1963 Lobster War

 

[USS_Ward]

Did we have the equivalent of this maritime crisis between France and Brazil in this story?

I did not even know about this, but given the fact that history is little changed ITTL besides the Malouines being french now its safe to say that it did happen.

 

[L'amateur d'aéroplanes]

France can also use its air and naval bases in Senegal thanks to its defense agreements. it would be necessary to check what the Dakar naval base can quickly accommodate.

Note that at the time, the French forces in Sénégal there were called from 1974 to 2011 Forces françaises du Cap-Vert

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

For what it's worth Secret Projects had a thread called "Swap the UK with France during the Falklands War" which began not long after this one. That is @USS_Ward started this thread on 7th December 2021 and the Secret Projects thread was started on 17th January 2022.

Swap UK with France during the Falklands War.

France had a colony in the Falklands in 1764, and referred the islands as Iles Malouines, from which the Spanish name Malvinas later derived from. Eventually France left the islands due to pressure from Spain. So in this scenario lets assume the following: 1. The islands remained French this...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

This thread was mentioned in Post 45 (dated 19th January 2022) of the Secret Projects thread.

 

[USS_Ward]

For what it's worth Secret Projects had a thread called "Swap the UK with France during the Falklands War" which began not long after this one. That is @USS_Ward started this thread on 7th December 2021 and the Secret Projects thread was started on 17th January 2022.

Swap UK with France during the Falklands War.

France had a colony in the Falklands in 1764, and referred the islands as Iles Malouines, from which the Spanish name Malvinas later derived from. Eventually France left the islands due to pressure from Spain. So in this scenario lets assume the following: 1. The islands remained French this...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

This thread was mentioned in Post 45 (dated 19th January 2022) of the Secret Projects thread.

Bro they even referenced me on the 2nd page!

 

[USS_Ward]

Hmmm reading that thread above gave me an idea. IOTL the british offered Argentina 1st Gen harriers (initially Gr1's and later Shars) instead they chose the Skyhawk. Now given that, Skyhawks needed a catapult to get launched off a carrier deck. IOTL they couldn't launch cuz of the lack of steam in the 25 De Mayo's aging and poorly maintained steam catapults. But Harriers don't need a steam catapult to launch, hell they don't even need a ski jump if it came down to it.....hmmmm

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Hmmm reading that thread above gave me an idea. IOTL the british offered Argentina 1st Gen harriers (initially Gr1's and later Shars) instead they chose the Skyhawk. Now given that, Skyhawks needed a catapult to get launched off a carrier deck. IOTL they couldn't launch cuz of the lack of steam in the 25 De Mayo's aging and poorly maintained steam catapults. But Harriers don't need a steam catapult to launch, hell they don't even need a ski jump if it came down to it.....hmmmm

Would they be able to operate from the OTL Stanley airport? If they could that would be more important than being able to operate from 25 De Mayo.

 

[Mike D]

Would they be able to operate from the OTL Stanley airport? If they could that would be more important than being able to operate from 25 De Mayo.

They'd have worked much better than any of the existing Argentine fast jets - the RAF regularly practised working from unprepared locations with the Harrier force in Germany so even a basic airfield should be enough to keep them working until the SAS visit.

 

[Gunnarnz]

They'd have worked much better than any of the existing Argentine fast jets - the RAF regularly practised working from unprepared locations with the Harrier force in Germany so even a basic airfield should be enough to keep them working until the SAS visit.

That's assuming the Argentines practice the same things. If they see the Harriers as carrier aircraft which don't need arrestor wires, they might not be ready to deploy them like that.

 

[Mike D]

That's assuming the Argentines practice the same things. If they see the Harriers as carrier aircraft which don't need arrestor wires, they might not be ready to deploy them like that.

As far as I'm aware the RAF didn't have to do anything to the aircraft to use them from improvised fields so, as long as there's enough fuel, consumables and weapons flown into Stanley, there shouldn't be anything stopping them from using the airfield. It's not Heathrow but it's a proper airport with runway etc.

 

[BlueTrousers]

As far as I'm aware the RAF didn't have to do anything to the aircraft to use them from improvised fields so, as long as there's enough fuel, consumables and weapons flown into Stanley, there shouldn't be anything stopping them from using the airfield. It's not Heathrow but it's a proper airport with runway etc.

It's not a question of modifying the aircraft - it's a question of doctrinal readiness. If the COAN isn't set up to provide logicstics, maintainers, command and control, etc. at an improvised field, then they may not be able to do it regardless of the aircraft.

 

[Mike D]

It's not a question of modifying the aircraft - it's a question of doctrinal readiness. If the COAN isn't set up to provide logicstics, maintainers, command and control, etc. at an improvised field, then they may not be able to do it regardless of the aircraft.

True, but surely that holds for any aircraft type? They managed to operate from the islands in our world (albeit mostly Pucaras and MB-339s rather than true fast jets) so they obviously understood how to move aircraft to an airfield away from their home field and operate them.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

They'd have worked much better than any of the existing Argentine fast jets - the RAF regularly practised working from unprepared locations with the Harrier force in Germany so even a basic airfield should be enough to keep them working until the SAS visit.

The SAS won't visit ITTL.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Did France have an equivalent to the SAS in 1982?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of Post 70.

The MASURCA armed AAW cruiser Colbert, accompanied by the AAW T47’s Du Chayla and the recently decommissioned yet soon-to-be recommissioned Bouvet.

Unfortunately, Colbert wasn't available IOTL. This is a quote from Post 310 of the Secret Projects thread.

Colbert was in dock from Sep 1981 to Nov 1982, followed by work ups in early 1983. Very unlikely that she could have been made available right in the middle of her big 14 month refit.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of Post 70 again.

The next major battlegroup would be the amphibious expeditionary force. The task group was composed naturally of the 2 Ouragan class LPD’s. Designed and built in the 60’s the Ouragan class (composed of Ouragan and Orage) would serve as the backbone of getting troops and equipment ashore. Capable of a pedestrian pace of 17 knots, both vessels were equipped with well decks and a flight deck capable of supporting up to 10 Alouettes or 3 Super Frelons. The ships were capable of deploying 2 Engin de débarquement d'infanterie et de chars (EDICs) large landing crafts which could transport eleven light tanks or eight loaded Chaland de transport de matériel (CTMs) or with eighteen Mk 6 landing craft mechanized (LCMs) operating from the well deck. A further three landing craft vehicle personnel (LCVPs) could be carried topside. The ships were also modular to a degree in design through the removal or addition (as needed) of various compartments for mission modularity. Both ships could also serve as repair vessels if necessary. Accompanying them would be all 5 of the Trieux class Tank Landing Ship. Capable of 11.5 knots, each ship could carry 4 landing craft and were capable of supporting up to 800 troops. There was also a flight deck as well to support helicopters.

The Secret Projects thread also included some posts about the deployment of the MN in 1982 and this is part of Post 317 about where the French LSDs and LSTs were IOTL.

However, one of the LSDs isn't missing from the list. It's on the list in the Pacific with 4 LSTs. The main entry on the Ouragan class says that Orage was allocated to the Pacific Nuclear Experimental Centre. It doesn't say where Ouragan was.

The main entries on the LSTs and the BATRAL type LSMs/large LCT's don't say where they were, but by skimming through the netmarine.net (many thanks to @Archibald for providing this source) it was something like.

LST Argens - Mediterranean
LST Bidassoa - Mediterranean
LST Blavet - Pacific
LST Dives - Pacific
LST Trieux - Pacific Nuclear Test Centre - she was replaced by the BTS Bougainville.

LSM Champlain - don't know - but I suspect it was the Pacific as that would bring the total of LST/LSM type ships in the Pacific to 4 which matches the Fleet Dispositions List in Jane's 1982-83.
LSM Francis Garnier - West Indies (Martinique) she may be one of the two ships I counted as a frigate in the table.
LSM Dumont d'Urville - Jane's 1982-83 has this ship commissioning during 1982. However, netmarine.net says she commissioned on 05.02.83 and "Arriving in Tahiti on June 13, 1983 , the Dumont d'Urville has spent most of her career in French Polynesia."
LSM Jacques Cartier - Jane's 1982-83 doesn't have a projected completion date for this ship, but netmarine.net says she commissioned on 28.09.83 and according to that source seems to have spent most of her career in the Pacific.

So one LSD, 3 LST and one LSM out of 2 LSD, 5 LST and 2 LSM available in the first half of 1982 were in the Pacific and the other LSM was in the West Indies.

 

[Mike D]

The SAS won't visit ITTL.

Au contraire mon frere, they'll just have a funny accent.

1st RPIMa is a direct descendant from the Free French SAS Squadron.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Au contraire mon frere, they'll just have a funny accent.

1st RPIMa is a direct descendant from the Free French SAS Squadron.

Did France have an equivalent to the SAS in 1982?

 

[Mike D]

1st RPIMa for the army, Commandos Marine for the navy and CPA10 for the air force. I think they'd all theoretically have the capability to do the job.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Au contraire mon frere, they'll just have a funny accent.

1st RPIMa is a direct descendant from the Free French SAS Squadron.

"Je ne suis pas autorisé à dire combien d'avions ont participé au raid, mais je les ai tous comptés, et je les ai tous recomptés. Leurs pilotes étaient indemnes, joyeux et jubilatoires, levant le pouce."

Except that ITTL they'd have been flying Crusaders and Super Etendards.