The Legacy of Saint Brendan: A History of the Western Hemisphere, 512 to 1400

All this talk of native population has got me wondering what the rough population of the new world is at this point? because wouldn't there now be 1000 less years of settlement and growth and so while the initial European migrants might be lower in both population and numbers wouldn't the same be said for the natives?
 
All this talk of native population has got me wondering what the rough population of the new world is at this point? because wouldn't there now be 1000 less years of settlement and growth and so while the initial European migrants might be lower in both population and numbers wouldn't the same be said for the natives?

Is there a known number? Because the pre-Columbian population of the Americas seems like one of those hotly disputed issues in history...
 
Hmm I bet that edge tribes were fleeing across to the new role so I bet they didn’t bring just warriors and. A lot of families but in the update it said contact with the new world was winding down does that mean it wil be forgetting then rediscovered by Europeans I wonde how that will go
 
Upon rereading the thread I've realized that the multiple waves of migration from the British Isles could result in a second, "Irish" based, "English" language forming that ends up being a mishmash of native and European languages. and I'm intrigued as to how the intermingling of settlers and natives will impact the development of Catholicism.
 
Yah I bet Christianity in the new world will break off from it ether becoming a de centralized form or something akin to Catholicism’s and I bet we will see a few more migration of people from England and maybe even Norway, Denmark’s, Brittany, Scotland, Ireland and then contact form Europe will finally ended then be not option when the little ice age and when Europeans do rediscover the new world those European will be impacted by some the new disease they brought over too
 
Yah I bet Christianity in the new world will break off from it ether becoming a de centralized form or something akin to Catholicism’s and I bet we will see a few more migration of people from England and maybe even Norway, Denmark’s, Brittany, Scotland, Ireland and then contact form Europe will finally ended then be not option when the little ice age and when Europeans do rediscover the new world those European will be impacted by some the new disease they brought over too
That’s likely a ways away. Anyway, for Christianity, what will likely happen is the British Isles will be brought into the fold of the Nicene Church, while the New World will see the Insular/Celtic Christian traditions continue, at least for a time.
 
Is there a known number? Because the pre-Columbian population of the Americas seems like one of those hotly disputed issues in history...

my very powerful proprietary research engine (aka google) has failed to give me anything like a 1 AD population estimate for the new world. i think using that you could extrapolate something resembling a 500 AD population, then shave 90% of that off and go from there

the upshot is "probably very few"
 
But think about how after these wave of of migration there’s will be a uptick in trade but then it will continue to drop only coming in the spring with traders and the occasional group colonists fleeing form the chaos of the old world and with the the power of the companies weaken considerably we will see a return of feudalism especially if we see people fleeing from Brittany or France. Even without we will still see feudalism or a much more simpler and earlier form and would still be different than the one in Europe like much less stone castle
 
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Slight update for anyone interested (and I guess @Rognvald ) - if you take the information on the approximate new world population found here and then parse it out over 1000 years it comes to something like a .0925% annual growth rate for the first millennia. That puts us somewhere in the ballpark of about 10 million people in 500, which seems a bit much (and is very inexact given the fact growth varied from 0 to 1000), so let's knock that down to, say, 9 million. I appreciate that reduction is totally arbitrary but it's the best we have.

If you take 9 million and knock off that 90%, you have, basically, an absolutely morbidly low population of 900,000 native peoples left in the entire New World, although you can assume it might be a little higher due to the Andes being isolated and also higher due to a longer period of spread to Mesoamerica, where the bulk of the population is.

More precisely to the area of the TL, we can look at the population of Canada and the US in 1 AD (760,000) and then bring that to an approximate 500 AD figure (1,206,650), which fortunately for accuracy does not include any arbitrary reductions on my part. With the plague being especially damaging towards these folks and more immediately, we can figure that population will go down to 120,665 for the entirety of the present day United States and Canada during the 500s-600s AD which sounds about right for what Rognvald is portraying (basically a ghost land). This figure will increase (using the same .09% growth rate) to around 159,236 by the current update of the TL.

While Europe might not have the excess population (it's something like 30 million in 500) to settle as many people as it did later, it will likely have more people on the ground in the New World than the natives by something like 1100 (and definitely more in North America sooner than that), depending on TL developments. You also have to consider many natives may be absorbed into the European societies (as we have already somewhat seen with the mixed populations). This will have dramatic demographic consequences for the makeup of this TL's New World population in the future.
 
Well remember to though that the infection isn’t able to spread because it burns itself because he hasn’t ravaged magor trade routes yet so it just stop and doesn’t do anything else so it would only be in the st Lawrence area where the native so wild be wipe out if they get to tye magor tribes or traders then that will begin the epidemic
 
Totes probs no update this weekend; I took the GRE yesterday and it wiped my thinking out :p

Thank you all for your continued comments and reading!
 
Totes probs no update this weekend; I took the GRE yesterday and it wiped my thinking out :p

Thank you all for your continued comments and reading!

Ah, the GRE, my old friend ;) I'm sure you did great but, yes, it has a tendency of drying the brain.

Good luck, and what programs are you looking into?
 
Chapter Three, Part Five: The Reconquest of Talbeáh
Chapter Three, Part Five: The Reconquest of Talbeáh, 882-900

With his “holy mission” received from Bishop Columb, Owain set about organizing his force to “reconquer” the mainland for the Bishopric. Columb, in the meantime, began to send messages to the various Companies on Talbeáh [1], seeking to convince them to support the campaign and submit back to the rightful authority of his office. None were that interested; they had had years of being left alone, and so were unwilling to give up what freedom they had to a figure that had always been on the periphery. In fact, there are accounts of several Company heads being confused by the letters, believing that they had been fulfilling “their end of the bargain”, as established by Columb’s three predecessors.

While Columb’s diplomacy would be frustrated, Owain’s efforts to martial a force would be hampered by rivalries within his army. Army, of course, being an overstatement. Owain certainly had a martial core for his army, in his Britonnic warband that had joined him in the exodus, but Owain wished for a strong auxiliary to support him. Though he might have been able to cow the Companies into obedience with just his personal retinue (as numbers in this period were still rather small), it would not have been as critical of a victory as he wanted.

Therefore, Owain, with Columb’s blessing, began to recruit among the Measctha that dwelt on the Insula. The Measctha proved rather hard to train; though they had their own militia, it had not seen any action beyond guard work in its entire history. Additionally, many were unhappy with the curt way that the Britons Owain placed over them treated them- were they not men, as well as they? Brawls would break out between Britons and Measctha if the Britons did not treat them with enough “respect”, forcing Owain to pause in his efforts to organize supplies and plan the course of action to deal with his fractured coalition.

Meeting with Columb, his “captains”, and several Meascthan ethnarchs [2], Owain wished to settle the dispute before he set out for his campaign. The ethnarchs demanded that the Britons treat their people with respect, and that they were organized along their own lines. The Britonnic captains scoffed at this, demanding submission to their military expertise. Owain would end up creating a sort of compromise. Two clans of Measctha would be assigned to each captain; the ethnarchs (or their representative) would consult with the captain in between actions, and would have control of their men in camp, but the captain’s authority would be absolute in combat. This seemed acceptable, and Owain could return to his preparations.

This delay, however, cost him valuable time, and his campaign, originally planned to begin in 883, was delayed an additional year. Owain feared that the Companies, getting wind of his plans, would organize themselves into a coalition to oppose him. His fear was unfounded, however, as the Companies didn’t treat the news coming from the Insula seriously. Additionally, even if they had, it was unlikely that the Company leadership, divided and scattered as it was, could organize an effective resistance at this point in time.

When his campaign finally got underway in 884, Owain had developed a plan that he believed would deliver him a quick victory. Knowing that the settlements of Rineen and Cósta Dhearg were the most important trade hubs for the Companys, he reasoned that be seizing these, the Companys would be forced to depend on him for their economic prosperity, and thus be coerced through trade manipulation into obedience. Setting out with five-hundred men (one-hundred Britons and four-hundred Measctha), Owain sailed towards Nuadu’s Isle to bring Rineen to heel. He expected a fight, and had readied his men for an extended siege.

However, much to his surprise, he discovered that Rineen lacked any sort of defensive fortifications; under Company control, Rineen (due to its importance) was a kind of neutral zone where feuds could not be carried on openly. It lacked even a palisade around it. To Owain’s surprise as well, Rineen’s population was very small. The fall trading season was not-yet begun, and the population, which swelled in the winter as various Company men arrived to spend the off-season trading, was at its annual low point. Therefore, Owain simply sailed into town and, as some surprised locals looked on, hoisted the banner of the Bishopric and declared the territory secured.

This set off reactions across Company lands as word of this spread, but initially there was little panic. Some of the Company men reasoned that a permanent force being stationed in Rineen could help them focus more on trade, especially as they no longer had to take turns manning the “watch” to enforce the truce that bound conduct within its borders. It wasn’t until embassies sent to Owain were met with guarded hostility from the Prince that some of the Company men began to be more concerned with what had taken place.

Owain, in the meantime, prepared for the second of his campaigns, readying his men to sail against Cósta Dhearg. This time, however, Owain was surprised again. This settlement, unlike Rineen, was more established, being the first permanent European town established on the continent. Long held by the Cernaig Company, who had fended off rivals trying to pry it from their grasp, Cósta Dhearg was dominated by a hill-fort overlooking the harbor. While Owain was readily able to occupy the town itself after a standoff with Cernaig guards, he was unable to hold it for long without taking the fort.

Thus began the siege. With about seventy-five Cernaig men holding the fort against the two-hundred men (fifty Britons and the rest Measctha) Owain had brought with him for this operation, the odds seemed to be heavily in the Prince’s favor. However, the head of the Cernaig, Donngal, was a crafty man. He launched raids at night over the walls into the Prince’s camp, slaying several men until Owain reordered how watches took place.

Owain also did not wish to risk an attack against a supremely fortified position, lacking any siege equipment beyond a simple ram or hastily constructed towers. With time on his side and his supply line secured by the sea, Owain simply settled to wait Donngal out. This took much longer than he would have wished, as the Cernaig had withdrawn much of the settlement’s foodstuffs to the hillfort once Owain’s ships were sighted, but the strategy eventually won out. By mid-fall of 884, the Cernaig Company was on its last rations.

But Donngal had one last trick up his sleeve. Gathering his men, and prepping for battle, he set the fort ablaze at midnight and rushed out with his Company, screaming at the top of their lungs. The Meascthan militia that made up the majority of Owain’s force were terrified by this, and refused to give battle, allowing Donngal to rush through the lines and escape deeper inland.

The Prince had secured Cósta Dhearg, but all he had to show for it was a burned-out hillfort. He was also realizing that he had miscalculated the importance of the two trading settlements. The Companies were fairly self-sufficient, to start off with, not requiring the greater trade to survive; additionally, if they wished, they could simply circumvent the outposts and sail directly to trade with each other. That winter, Owain reevaluated his strategy.

The Companies were also beginning to become more savvy about Owain’s intentions, especially as Donngal spread word about Owain’s taking of Cósta Dhearg. Donngal was angry about losing his territory, and he was willing to do anything to take it back, including lie. He spoke of wholesale rape by the Britons, pillaging, plundering, and butchering of children. Though these were mostly outright fabrications, the allegations spread like wildfire, and turned general opinion among the Companies against Owain. Though Donngal’s hope of creating a sort of anti-Briton coalition failed to materialize, it would make the conquest more difficult for Owain.

However, some Companies were impressed by Owain’s defeat of the Cernaig, which had been a regional player for decades. Their main rival, the Imchada Company, was impressed enough to open up discussions with Owain. Rechtabra, the head of the Imchada, met with Owain in January of 885, and offered support for his campaign if he granted the Imchada stewardship over Cósta Dhearg and much of the surrounding area. Owain, brightened by the prospect of adding an additional eighty veterans of Company feuds to his ranks, signed over the stewardship to the Imchada.

Owain also spent the winter retraining the Measctha, treating the ethnarchs harshly after the recalcitrance of their men allowed Donngal to escape. Backed by Columb, he walked away from his earlier compromise and vested more authority into his Briton captains. The ethnarchs complained, but they had respect for the Bishop and thus agreed to the changes, despite grumbling. This would prove crucial to his campaigns in 885, as initially the Companies believed that the Measctha would not stand and fight if pressed.

885’s campaigning began in April, with Owain setting his sights on the Dubthaig Company. Though a relatively small player, the Dubthaig had been one of the Companies that tried to use Rineen as a trading post. Like most of the Companies, it was turned off by the requirements for trade that Owain had placed on it, but unlike the others, they had decided to rough up the place before departing. This would prove a mistake, as Owain would send Redherch, one of his captains, to raid the Dubthaig settlement.

The Dubthaig were only able to mount an effective defense of thirty men, and were quickly overwhelmed. Redherch set the place on fire and scattered the survivors, many of whom sought to join with Donngal, who was doing his best to assemble an army to oppose the Prince. The destruction of the Dubthaig settlement angered several of their neighbors as well- the Dubthaig had always been friendly, and they felt they did not deserve what happened to them. Redherch was attacked by a coalition of neighboring Companies, and driven back to the coast. Owain’s brother, Arthal, would lead a relief force, and together he and Redherch would spend the remainder of the campaign season establishing control over the area.

This put Owain in a bit of a bind. His forces were so small at this point that he felt he could only risk one major campaign at a time. He had had plans of trying to secure the coastal regions around Cósta Dhearg, but the difficulties Redherch was facing caused him to postpone these plans for another year. The Imchada would present him with a solution to this. For while Donngal was doing his best to rally Companies against Owain, Rechtabra was meeting with Companies friendly to him. By 886, a coalition of Companies friendly to Owain would be established, adding more men to his army and allowing him the freedom to launch two campaigns at a time. The fractured nature of the Companies would prove to be their undoing, for the rivalries they had established over the years allowed Rechtabra and Owain to augment their forces with Gaelic collaborators.

886 would see Owain launching the “Northwest” campaign, with Redherch and Arthal moving up along the coastline North of Nuadu’s Isle to bring the Companies there to heel (more time-consuming than anything else, as the Companies here were relatively small but scattered across the landscape) while he led the effort to take the territory around Cósta Dhearg. He would be met with fierce resistence from Donngal, who led his makeshift army to oppose him, clashing in several small engagements, fighting him at some points to a standstill. The more Donngal succeeded in beating off Owain’s efforts to push the Companies to submission, the more they were willing to stand up to the Britons. At one-point Owain was considering entering into negotiations with Donngal, afraid of turning all the Companies against him.

In an engagement, however, one of the points on which history turns took place. Donngal was leading a small band of men in burning a handcart pulling supplies for Owain’s men, when Imchada men arrived on the scene. Instead of pulling back, Donngal led his followers to scatter the Imchada; he succeeded, but an arrow loosed by a retreating man hit him in the leg. Infection would set in, and Donngal would die as a result. With Donngal’s death, the best hope for organizing the majority of the Companies against Owain would vanish, sealing the fate of the coast as the army Donngal had organized broke apart.

The campaign would last for another three years until it finally concluded to Owain’s satisfaction, but the fighting was scattered and mostly consisted of raids. Why was this so? In a large part, it was due to the fractured nature of the Companies. Though those who would likely have opposed Owain outnumbered those who supported him, they were divided into many Companies that were sometimes so small they could only field a dozen fighting men. While the patchwork made any effort to subdue territory an investment in time and effort, there was no way that they would be able to stand up to Owain’s more unified force in the field.

By 890, at any rate, a new sort of peace settled over the land. Owain was triumphant, and the Companies were subdued. Those Companies that had supported him were rewarded with the territory of their rivals, while Owain’s own captains held control of territory in the name of the Bishop. Columb was pleased, as he had reversed three generations of decay and restored rightful ecclesiastical rule over the entire West; he asked Owain to meet with him to discuss how the Bishop could effectively rule over these territories, and establish a new pattern of life in the West.

However, Owain did not simply wish to hand over the land he had secured to the Bishop. He had forged an army out of his campaign, and had built alliances that the Bishop lacked. The Imchada and their allies preferred to deal with Owain directly; his captains had no special love for the Bishop. Even the Insula Measctha that had made up the bulk of his forces had developed a sort of respect for Owain, the only kind of respect that could come from combat.

Whether the old stories of Owain being complicit in it are true or not is up for debate; but whatever the case, Columb collapsed during his meeting with Owain and died shortly thereafter. Owain publicly mourned his friend, but also exercised great influence over Columb’s successor, Cernach. Cernach announced that Owain was to be granted the title of Enforcer, or “Gorfodi”, as it was rendered in Cumbraek, and that this title was to be held by his house forever.

What exactly was this office? In essence, the Gorfodi was in charge with ruling in the name of the Bishop. While the Bishop remained the absolute authority in the lands, holding the secular rights granted to him by the Peace of Armagh, the Gorfodi was tasked with enforcing this authority in how he saw fit, as well as controlling day to day affairs of state. In all but name, it was a kingship. [3]

The newly minted Gorfodi would spend the next ten years reorganizing the patchwork of former Company territory into controllable vassaldoms. His captains and brothers would receive fiefdoms carved from the land, while those Companies that were loyal to him had their rights reaffirmed. A new era dawned on the West; in 900, Owain died of a brief illness and his son, Carodoc, would become the new Gorfodi, the first time hereditary succession came into play in the New World.

It would also be a new era for another reason; for in 900, the Ostish conquest of Askraland was completed, and the connection to the British Isles, which had been growing ever more tenuous, was broken.

[1]- As the various factions involved in this period began to use the mutated Gaelic form more commonly, as opposed to the original Latin term, this work will begin to move away from use of Terra Ursus.

[2]- It may be worth pausing for a moment and discussing how the Measctha on the Insula were organized. While the “continental Measctha” were assimilated into the general milleau of the Companies, the “island Measctha” did not follow a similar course. With the monastery under generally weak leadership during this period, the island Measctha devolved into a loose clan system of their own, based on blood ties. The leaders of these “clans”, termed “ethnarchs” by the monks, each had their own hall in Peace Town, and met yearly to discuss the economic activity on the island and plan out what actions their clans could take so as to avoid conflict with each other. It was a much more peaceful system than that experienced on the mainland.

[3]- Some historians have compared this office to that of the Taishogun of Yamato, and while this may be helpful for some readers, there are several key differences that make me wish to stay away from making this comparison.
 
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It would also be a new era for another reason; for in 900, the Norse conquest of Askraland was completed, and the connection to the British Isles, which had been growing ever more tenuous, was broken.

Askraland is Iceland, right? Or is it some part of England/Ireland?

Wait i thought there was a migration from people from sctoland colonzing the area?

I think that the only time the Scots have been mentioned here is that some of the Irish Kingdoms have been trying to carve out territory there and also Owain's brothers fled there with the survivors of their Kingdom.
 
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