The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine

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desmirelle

HortenseMancini said:
Also, could you maybe give a list of Henry and Katherine’s children so far ITTL?
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as of 17 December 1519:
(of course, the living ones are Prince/Princess according to gender)

1. miscarriage, daughter, early March, 1510
2. son, Henry, 1 January 1511 (Henry, Prince of Wales)
3. son, John, 8 October 1513 (John, Duke of York)
4. stillborn son, 17 November 1514
5. daughter, Cecily, 17 September - 12 December 1518
6. daughter, Mary, 18 February 1516
7. miscarriage, 16 May 1519
8, son, Edward, 16 December 1519
9. daughter, Eleanor, 16 December 1519

Edward has not yet received a Dukedom. And, I hate to break @ordinarylittleme's heart, but there will be no Elizabeth. Katherine may have another 'lost' child, but she will have no more living children. I don't think anyone will be surprised by this declaration for the TL. She is, 34, going into menopause as in OTL. Beside, 5 living children is more than enough and more than I intended. (Gaming Dice decided that there were to be twins, boy & girl, and that both will survive until the next life rolls.)

And, how many have realized that the May miscarriage was one of triplets? Katherine wasn't having twins originally, but triplets. Mother Nature did what she does best: eliminated one of them, probably because of a genetic issue or something. (My brother, a medical man, tells me that's one of the reasons it happens - if the problem wasn't the mother's biology/physiology.)
 
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desmirelle

ordinarylittleme said:
I hope Henry does get his Elizabeth after all...although the naming scene is hilarious .
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I'm glad you liked it. I liked thinking it up; it was a way to avoid an Elizabeth. I try to avoid Henrys as well, but with the King being Henry that's hard to do.

I hope everyone else liked it, too. I tried to come up with a valid reason and the birthing chaos seemed perfect.
 

vandevere

desmirelle said:
as of 17 December 1519:
(of course, the living ones are Prince/Princess according to gender)

1. miscarriage, daughter, early March, 1510
2. son, Henry, 1 January 1511 (Henry, Prince of Wales)
3. son, John, 8 October 1513 (John, Duke of York)
4. stillborn son, 17 November 1514
5. daughter, Cecily, 17 September - 12 December 1518)
6. daughter, Mary, 18 February 1516
7. miscarriage, 16 May 1519
8, son, Edward, 16 December 1519
9. daughter, Eleanor, 16 December 1519

Edward has not yet received a Dukedom. And, I hate to break @ordinarylittleme's heart, but there will be no Elizabeth. Katherine may have another 'lost' child, but she will have no more living children. I don't think anyone will be surprised by this declaration for the TL. She is, 34, going into menopause as in OTL. Beside, 5 living children is more than enough and more than I intended. (Gaming Dice decided that there were to be twins, boy & girl, and that both will survive until the next life rolls.)
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The dice were kind this time, I see...
 
Ogrebear

Ogrebear

It is a shame Katherine will not have any more alive children, I was hoping for one more before she was unable to carry.

Still a more successful family for Henry than otl.
 

desmirelle

Ogrebear said:
It is a shame Katherine will not have any more alive children, I was hoping for one more before she was unable to carry.

Still a more succe/ssful family for Henry than otl.
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Five living children are more than enough for me to figure out what to do with! The only one with a betrothed at present is the eldest. And, don't forget - there are at least two more bouts of the sweat to get through (1528 & 1551/2). The dice may get bitchy. . .
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

desmirelle said:
as of 17 December 1519:
(of course, the living ones are Prince/Princess according to gender)

1. miscarriage, daughter, early March, 1510
2. son, Henry, 1 January 1511 (Henry, Prince of Wales)
3. son, John, 8 October 1513 (John, Duke of York)
4. stillborn son, 17 November 1514
5. daughter, Cecily, 17 September - 12 December 1518
6. daughter, Mary, 18 February 1516
7. miscarriage, 16 May 1519
8, son, Edward, 16 December 1519
9. daughter, Eleanor, 16 December 1519

Edward has not yet received a Dukedom. And, I hate to break @ordinarylittleme's heart, but there will be no Elizabeth. Katherine may have another 'lost' child, but she will have no more living children. I don't think anyone will be surprised by this declaration for the TL. She is, 34, going into menopause as in OTL. Beside, 5 living children is more than enough and more than I intended. (Gaming Dice decided that there were to be twins, boy & girl, and that both will survive until the next life rolls.)

And, how many have realized that the May miscarriage was one of triplets? Katherine wasn't having twins originally, but triplets. Mother Nature did what she does best: eliminated one of them, probably because of a genetic issue or something. (My brother, a medical man, tells me that's one of the reasons it happens - if the problem wasn't the mother's biology/physiology.)
Click to expand...
Eh, that's fair. Katherine is quite old for childbirth (according to the standards of that era). Plus, nothing stopping Henry from siring an Elizabeth Fitzroy
 

desmirelle

ordinarylittleme said:
Eh, that's fair. Katherine is quite old for childbirth (according to the standards of that era). Plus, nothing stopping Henry from siring an Elizabeth Fitzroy
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This is true, however, he's unlikely to formally acknowledge any bastards in this TL. OTL, it was to 'prove' to the world at large HE could sire a son - i.e., it wasn't his fault he had no son with Katherine. So, once again, I shatter your hopes . . . . :pensive: I'd apologize, but this is a character-based item and Henry OTL did not acknowledge his female bastard progeny.
 
28 December 1519
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    • desmirelle

    The christening of the twins was delayed for three hours. Not because of any health issues of theirs, but because of the Duke of York's beating of an older Howard boy. Since the young Duke was built like his father, he was as large as the other and his status and temper made it a more than equal fight. It was never established why the two fought: the Howard lad said the prince jumped him and the Duke of York, despite the testimony of the others around them at the time, insisted the other was an insolent bastard. He didn't stop fighting until his father the King grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and pulled him off the other child. The monarch was furious that John had caused the postponement of the ceremony, but secretly pleased that this son, like his father before him, was more than holding his own in a fight with an older child.

    While the Howard child was taken home for treatment, Prince John was taken to the smaller chapel and forced to knees and made to recite prayers before a local priest who had come to witness the ceremony. For three hours, the 6 year-old petulantly recited in between his protests that as a Prince of the blood, he should not be punished for 'avenging an insult'. It wasn't until he was taken to his mother in her chambers and chastised by her that he actually cried and acknowledged his sin. He was given a less harsh punishment for pride at the request of the Queen and spent the next few days assisting the priests, dressed as befitted the position.
     
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    • desmirelle

    ordinarylittleme said:
    Well, he has his mother to do that...
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    Not really, he's not a mama's boy and Henry is proud that John is a sportsman. Hal is more his mother's son in temperament, which makes him closer to Katherine than John. John is a daddy's boy. Royal children are raised apart from their parents for the most part to ensure that they're not all killed - they may be close by, but rarely (except on special occasions) in the palace with their parents.
     

    desmirelle

    Oops. I am currently at my brother's NEW house, awaiting furniture delivery in his stead. I was going to type up my already written return of Katherine after childbirth (her churching); but I brought my 'Poltergeist: the Legacy' notebook (in my defense, I was in a hurry and the spiral notebooks are the same color on the cover) instead of the one for this thread. Sorry. Will be back tomorrow, I suppose.
     

    vandevere

    desmirelle said:
    Oops. I am currently at my brother's NEW house, awaiting furniture delivery in his stead. I was going to type up my already written return of Katherine after childbirth (her churching); but I brought my 'Poltergeist: the Legacy' notebook (in my defense, I was in a hurry and the spiral notebooks are the same color on the cover) instead of the one for this thread. Sorry. Will be back tomorrow, I suppose.
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    That's life. Don't sweat it...
     
    1520 January - February
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    • desmirelle

    27 January - 1 February

    The churching of Queen Katherine was almost as big an affair as the christening of the twins had been (lacking only the fireworks). Good superstitious Roman Catholic woman that she was, Katherine was over-effusive about praising God for the twins. Since Katherine was thrilled Henry had chosen the name Eleanor and not Elizabeth, he never mentioned in public or to friends that Elizabeth had been his choice but there was a miscommunication resulting in Princess Eleanor. He had only mentioned it only to his confessor, who had advised that he leave as it was; Leanor was a close friend of Katherine and allowing a Princess Eleanor made him look like a good man who considered his wife's wishes - setting an example for his people.

    The final feast was broken in two: one overly extravagant one for nobles at the royal residence and the other a line to a kitchen at a nearby noble's house for the common folk to get food. There were guards at the first for the safety of guests; the guards at the second were protecting the kitchen and keeping the peace, especially when the food ran out at 2:45 in the afternoon (it had started at 1). By 4, the common folk were dispersed and the house locked tight with guards still posted. Not one of Henry's best ideas.


    7 - 14 February

    The first official duty (beyond the churching) for the Queen (and King, who had held the Prince of Wales' birthday whilst Katherine was still confined) was the marriage on the 7th of Henry Courtenay to Isabel Leigh, step-daughter of Edmund Howard by his wife Jocasta Culpeper. She and Courtenay had been paired by the King and the Duke of Norfolk shortly after the birth of the twins, with marriage attended by the King and Queen the main draw for both bride and groom. Both being keenly aware of status, made no complaint - especially since the Duke provided the dowry (actually, the King said the Duke was providing the dowry as Edmund was perpetually in debt).

    Princes Hal and John watched with their parents and followed them to the banquet afterwards (provided by the King). Prince John took offense at being placed with the children and threw the ewer of watered ale from his table across the table. Then Princess Mary, who had not been at the ceremony but was allowed for the first part of the banquet (Katherine was strict on bedtimes, but Henry had said the boys would stay for whole banquet. Prince Hal, watching from the right of the groom (at the right of the King), both frowned and shook his finger at his brother, which made things worse. The Duke of Suffolk rose and went to the younger prince, took him firmly in hand and left. Henry made a joke of John having the same temper as he had as a boy. Katherine was incandescent with rage; it took her several minutes to calm down. She could not leave, but trusted that the Duke would know what to do. What she did not know at the time was that Henry was not half as amused as he pretended to be. The fracas at the christening was one thing - those were his siblings. This was a formal banquet for Holy Matrimony.

    Charles Brandon took John to the nursery priest, then returned to the banquet, stopping to tell the Queen what he had done before retaking his seat. After the first three courses, the Countess of Suffolk excused herself and took Mary away for a washing and bed. Mary, unlike the still screaming John, went along quietly and enjoyed the bedtime prayer ritual before taking to her bed. Mary Brandon tucked her in and left her in the care of her ladies, then went to her quarters to freshen up before returning to the banquet.

    John's tantrum extended to the next day, when his father informed him he was to go to no further formal court events until he proved himself the master of his temper. Henry explained that he took after him in this matter; Henry had had to master his at John's age. When John continued, he was handed over to the priest for discipline. The King heard the corporal punishment begin as he left the room.

    At the feast of St. Valentine, Prince John was allowed to prove what he had sworn to his father: that he could master his temper. Surprisingly, he did, even though he was still at a table for royal and noble children. And even in the face of his Howard nemesis, he was the epitome of what was expected of a prince. Everyone was impressed.
     
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    • Ogrebear

    Ogrebear

    Sounds like fun domestic times for Henry and Katherine there- lucky they have staff heh?

    John sounds like he is going to be a right handful for just about everyone.
     

    desmirelle

    The current Prince of Wales (Hal) is set to marry Renee of France. Probably when they're both 16, his parents both had brothers whose lives may have been cut short by, shall we say, too much marital activity. He has his mother's coloring but Hal is not as wide nor as loud as his father and very intelligent and we hope common sense (can't tell about that one for a while); he enjoys learning (mental and physical), but can be extremely stubborn. He's slow to anger, bit shy in person and right now wishes he doesn't a brother John.

    The Duke of York thinks he ought to be Prince of Wales. He thinks his father is perfect (except when he has John disciplined) and looks like him. He's about as intelligent as his older brother, but is large for his size and is currently a bully who now realizes he's going to have be careful about who is around when he decides to 'chastise'' someone who has offended him'. We'll see how far that goes.

    But. . . who are the candidates for Duchess of York? It's about time H8 & K started seriously looking at options for him.
     
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