Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Koprulu Mustafa Pasha, Mar 25, 2018.
If that them they will be laughed out any serious politician.
Again look at ireland, irish diasporia funded the IRA. People will still push for independent christain nations as a bigotry and b racism ottomans are not equal people to good christian europeans.
The Sultans last will - 1810
Murad V was an unfortunate Sultan. Wanting too much change in such little time meeting hostile reactionaries as a result. Considering that he lost most of his support he gave up his throne for his nephew Selim. At his request, he left for Trabzon to retire. Unsure about this, Selim III still agreed and the former Sultan left for the Black Sea Port in Eastern Anatolia. From 1793 till 1810, Murad V lived there without going out too much in the open. Being protected by 20 Guards at all time, he lived an easy life. Selims decision to leave Poland in Russian Sphere rather than to fight for Polish Sovereignty caused some radical reformists to consider to bring back Murad V back on the throne. Speaking of such treason was not only death sentence to the traitors but also to the former Sultan. Selim did hear the rumours about deposing him. When he heard they wanted Murad V back rather than the heir, Mustafa who seemed to be conservative, Murad was considered. The death of Ahmed and Osman in the Military Campaigns had only Suleiman alive as a counter to Mustafa but he was too indecisive to lead the state in favor of the reformist bringing Murad V as the most likely candidate. Mahmud Being third in the line was their second option. In 1810, Selim III position seemed dangerous and Military Crackdown started in Istanbul to purge traitors. At one point in June Selim asked the Mufti what to do when the State was in danger and there were two Sultans. He knew the answer already but tried his last chance to look for a different option. The Mufti told him that death is the only option for the Sultan and Murad had to be executed to prevent bigger disasters. Selims struggle came to a quick end as letters from Trabzon arrived by the Silahdar Aga of Murad V. The former Sultan was ill, nothing to be worried but his health turned to worse and it seemed matter of time until Murad would die. The former Sultan's request was to return back to Istanbul and to be buried in his birthplace. Selim agreed and had brought his nephew back. At the arrival he saw that his nephew was in no condition to walk without help of his guards. He was brought back to the Palace where he died in the morning. Before the morning prayer, the populace of Istanbul was announced of the death of the former Sultan. As much as the people hated the quick changes imposed by Murad V, they still participated his funeral, opposition and supporters alike. In a rainy day in Istanbul, the reformist Sultan died. His steps led to his downfall but it did lead to a stronger personality of his nephew who had the courage to keep up and face the reactionary powers. The Ghazi of Belgrade is buried as all of God’s creation.
Population Census in the Ottoman Empire - 1810
Without mourning more than a day for his deceased nephew, Selim and his Pasha’s continued to work. The Taxing System need to be reorganised. Tax Collectors claimed that the population of entire towns were suddenly lesser than what was expected and collecting taxes became harder as half the expected taxes from such towns and villages did not reach Istanbul for the last 10 years. Selim sent out a new firman to his Pashas in the Empire. Every house has to be counted, every child need to be documented. The local government officials needed to know the detail of the populations. The biggest trouble was Anatolia were there still were Turkmen Nomads who did not settle down yet. Moving between Homs and Sinop, Mosul and Izmir. As far as the tax collectors know, these people are not part of any settlements. The only way of taxing them was when they arrived in a town while the tax collectors are there. As they manoeuvre to avoid tax collectors or conscription, it becomes harder to tax them. Selims firman to Central Anatolia was to exempt the Nomads from taxation for five years and exempted from conscription for 15 years if they settled down, in towns or their own village. Naturally it did have effect and many Afshar Turkmens build their own villages in Central, Southern and South Eastern Anatolia. Some other Turkmens outside the Afshar Turkmens settled in Northern Syria around Aleppo and Raqqa. Selims census was to start per 1811 and 1821 when most of the Turkmens would be settled. According to those census the taxing will be decided. The Grand Vizier would have the authority to decide the taxing rate. It was decided that a third of every earning Akce a year would be taxed. The census did not only help the taxing reforms but also started to document the Ottoman population in the archives. About three generations back would be named in the archives and people could trace their family back from the beginning of 1700s.
The power struggle between Alemdar Mustafa and Mehmed Ali - 1810
Alemdar Mustafa Pasha became the most important figure in the Empire to support Selim III and was an active governor to rule the Danube Province from Silistre. The only problem Selim and the Grand Vizier Celebi Mustafa Pasha had was that Alemdar Mustafa was an advocate of a decentralised Ottoman State and the Sultan sharing his power with the tax paying Landowners. Being inspired by the French Revolution, the ideas of Republicanism as well as constitutional monarchy. The ideas from the West were rapidly spreading to the Empire. The opposition to Alemdar Mustafa was of course, Grand Vizier Celebi Mustafa Pasha and Mehmed Ali Pasha. Mehmed Ali Pasha was the most likely successor if Celebi Mustafa was to be replaced as Grand Vizier. With Alemdar Mustafa coming up with radical ideas unknown to the Ottoman State, it brings the position of Mehmed Ali Pasha in danger. In the Palace, formations were being formed. Alemdar Mustafa was supporting Selim III but he was in favor of Suleiman succeeding Selim. Mehmed Ali Pasha wanted Mustafa to succeed Selim. Alemdar Mustafa had support of the powerful Army Faction within the Empire like Hafiz Murad Pasha. Mehmed Ali Pasha had the support of the admiral of the Mediterranean, Osman Pasha. There were several factions who did not support anyone. Ferhad Pasha, commander of the Bosnian Campaign during the rebellion. Hadzi Mustafa Pasha, governor of Belgrade. Celebi Mustafa Pasha, the Grand Vizier, who did not like Alemdar Mustafas ambition but did not like the growing power of Mehmed Ali Pasha in court either. Ahmed Hursid Pasha, the governor of Egypt also remained neutral although he was leaning more towards Alemdar Mustafa. Although rivalries did exist before, the rivalries were now growing bigger as the main leaders were popping up.
Alemdar Mustafa Pasha, Governor of the Danube Eyalet
Well shit. Can the sultan declare one the heir? Also time for the Egyptian army to be built. Im guessing the clergy support Mustafa. I can't tell if your ignoring the Napoleonic wars so there will be a major update with divergences or its the same. So much has happened otl, Napoleon has married a Austrian princess, Holland annexed, prussia defeated by Napoleon, french general on the Swedish throne, spanish empire falling etc.
Sorta off topic, for now at least, but do you have plans for west africa like you your plans for India and Indonesia? I mean Ottoman policies and imfluence towars muslim west africa and maybe even further spread of Islam there? Also do you have plans for east africa? The horn and the zwahilies?
No plans pre-1820 yet.
Cool, I didn't want you to spoil me you plans, I just wanted to know if you already tought about those places and had something ready for later.
I have my plans with West Africa. I'ma not spoil it like I usually do.
Off topic: I plan a poll for South Africa. As I have not decided about its fate yet. The followers of this thread can vote.
As of the last post, The Netherlands had been annexed to the French Empire of is still the puppet Batavia?
Wheres the poll?
Will make one tomorrow
It is being annexed by 1810 as our TL
So how much soldiers are in the Balkans anyway as of now? Also I could see the various groups in the Balkans begin mixing into one group (Serbs and Bosniaks becoming one group once again?).
I can see more Azeris migrating into Anatolia as well, as well as other groups from Central Asia once industrialization occurs.
About 80k now mobilised I think...
Mixing into one South Slavic (Yugoslav) population has its pro's en cons. Depending which ethnicity is dominant. But it is not likely yet. I write it as yet as it is not implausible later on. The biggest obstacle is religion. The Serbs being largely Orthodox, Bosnians being largely Muslim and Croats being largely Catholic... it hinders a lot. Especially with conflicts between Bosnian Landowners and Christian Peasants.
The problem with your mentioned migration is: Azerbaijan is per 1810 in TTL wealthier than Anatolia. And Azerbaijanis are the ruling elite as well as manpower source in Safavid Persia. The Safavids won't accept to lose them anytime soon. As mentioned a long time ago, Persia's population needs to grow. Central Asian migration might happen post-1820. Can not guarantee it.
There are plans to force nomads of Anatolia to settle down. It is going to have effects though. So Anatolia is going to experience development.
@haider najib @Nivek @LunazimHawk @Aghstadian @Nurhaci @skarosianlifeform etc etc, you are my most loyal followers...
Already vote thanks for the mention buddy
Sehzade Mustafa goes to Hadj - 1811
In 1810, Sehzade Selim was sent to Hadj. As a heir, he was ordered by Selim to go on the pilgrimage. If Mustafa were to be Sultan, he would have much more prestige in the eyes of the Muslims as a ‘Haci’ (pilgrim). Mustafa did not wait too long and left Istanbul for Aleppo. This journey would develop Mustafa to what he would become. A different man. Already having problems with his anger issues and his conservative behavior in a progressive environment in Topkapi Palace with his nephew Selim on the throne. In Aleppo he met with the local Janissary Agha of the Aleppo Janissary Corps. The only Corps not to be abolished in the entire Levant. With the abolishment of the Baghdad Janissary Corps by the Pasha of Baghdad, many Janissaries left for Aleppo to join the Corps there. Both the governor and the locals were largely positive about the Corps. Coming in contact with the Aleppo Janissaries, Mustafa developed even more sympathy for the Janissaries. Seeing it as the backbone of the Ottoman State to protect the traditions of the Ottoman State. While meeting the Janissaries he also learned about their complaints about how the Christian Landowners on the Coast were protected by the State while the Janissary Corps was facing humiliation while the Corps would be the first in line to protect the State. As was told to Mustafa. Mustafa decided to change his route and left for Latakia and decided to go through Acre rather than Damascus. In Latakia he came in contact with the Afshar Turkmens who did not want to settle down in Anatolia and keep the Nomad Life. While staying in Latakia, he experienced in real life the success of Shia Missionaries from Karbala and Najaf to pull the Alawite Peasants and tribes to their sides. When asking Alawite Merchants in Latakia about their religion, almost all called themselves Shiite or even Twelver Shia. Their practice of their religion did not change much but the perception Imam Ali was changing and taking Jafari forms. Not wishing to stay in Latakia due to his dislike of Shiites already, As Mustafa moved further, he arrived in Tripoli in Mount Lebanon. There, he met with Sunni Sheikhs and learned more about Mount Lebanon. The friendly welcome of the Lebanese made Mustafa love Mount Lebanon and speak nothing but good words. His positive views were changing however when he arrived. As some of the Aleppo Janissaries were asked to join his pilgrimage Mecca, he arrived with about 150 men in Beirut. Of those, 50 were his personal Guards. The remaining 100 men were Janissaries from Aleppo. In Beirut he experienced something that would reconsider his views on Mount Lebanon. Already known as man who dislikes non-Sunni Muslims, he experienced Slave traders from Anatolia with Muslim CIrcassian and Georgian Slaves. Some of the Slaves ended up being bought by Wealthy Christians. While the situation was completely normal in Mount Lebanon, the whole experience made him uncomfortable. Having 10,000 Akce with him, he bought all the Slaves free he found in Lebanon. As nobody know it was the heir of Selim, people were surprised why an unknown wealthy man from Anatolia bought all the Slaves. The Janissaries of Aleppo were ordered to return to Aleppo with the freed Slaves from Beirut. Mustafa would take them with him back to Istanbul once he returned from Mecca. From Beirut he left for Jerusalem and then to Aqaba. As the road got more dangerous, with many Wahabi Raiders nearby, he still arrived safe and sound in Madina. After finishing the Hadj, Mustafa returned back Aleppo and then moved to Iskenderun (Alexandretta) and left by Ship back to Istanbul where he arrived in 1812. His experience in the Levant was brought before Sultan Selim. Mustafa was very concerned about the autonomy the Locals in the Levant had and how much of a threat it was. Muslim Slaves being sold in the open and to Christians was even more absurd to Mustafa. Selim agreed that the concerns were serious but did not attempt to do much. Mustafa however did not give up and started to send out his trusted Guards and Harem Officials to buy Muslim Slaves free. Indirectly, the experience of Mustafa in the Levant started the first steps of opposition to slavery.
The last Nomads of the Middle East - 1811
A fierce warrior. A threatening leader. This man was Esref Bey of the Bayirbucak wing of the Afshar tribe. As many of his Afshar Tribe decided to listen to Sultan Selim's firman and settle down in Anatolia, Esref was one of those leaders of Nomads who did not heed the Firman from Istanbul. Rather than settling in Anatolia, Esref Bey left for the land between Antioch and Latakia. Government Authority was already low in the Levant and Mesopotamia. Esref saw a good chance to keep his autonomy whether he remained a nomad leader or a local Emir. Settling down in Bayirbucak, Esref made the place his base to raid Alawite landowners as well as coastal villages. Being nomad did not prevent the Bayirbucak Afshars to use pistols and muskets. Many had military experience from previous wars with Persia and Russia. Settling in North Western Part of the Levant, he made immediately friends with the Aleppo Janissary Corps. Yusuf Agha, the head of the Janissary Corps in Aleppo offered to support Esref for some of his spoils. Esref had friends and his influence started to spread out. The raids were at first around the Bayirbucak region but quickly reached as far as Tartus and Qalamoun. Esref made himself powerful and became a new player in the Levant. Abdullah Pasha of Sidon saw Esref as an opportunity to pressure Druze and Maronite Landowners to come towards Abdullah Pasha for support. And thus would the power of Abdullah Pasha rise. Esrefs raid in Alawite mountain and Mount Lebanon brought him large wealth of the region. And as the raids continued, the income of Esref rose rapidly.
The Bayirbucak Afshars were not entirely Turkish. The Tribe also had large number of Kurds who would form a tenth of the total tribe. There were also small number of Arabs from Mardin, Circassians from Suhumkale and even Armenians. The latter were merchants who lived off selling to these Nomads. The Bayirbucak Afshars being 12,000 people, settling in an area were Turks were living already. In best case scenario, Esref Bey could mobilise 3,000 men of his own and another 3,000 Janissaries as his allies. With 6,000 men he had his own personal army. And the Army could grow to 9,000 men if all the Janissaries are called in. Due to his large support, Esref Bey was feared by the local Landowners and rulers. It went as far as Abdullah Pasha being afraid of Esref Bey and sending letters to Sultan Selim to look at the situation in the Levant.
The assassination of Hadzi Mustafa Pasha - 1811
His old age did not help the elderly governor of Belgrade but refusing to stop working due to his illness, Mustafa Pasha was walking through Belgrade each day every day in a week. Visiting Belgrade University was the last of his task in a warm March day. With his Serb Friend Illija, he left the university seeing his work and how grateful the Serbs were with the old Governor's aid and support. As he left he was shot by an unknown assailant. Two pistols, two bullets, Illija was the first to get shot. As Hadzi Mustafa was confused what was happening, he was shot second. The elderly Mustafa died on the ground as the Belgrade Militia made haste. Their Commander and their Governor were shot. Mustafa died immediately. Later in the night Illija died as well. The next day there was a large crowd to attend their funerals. Of the 100k population in Belgrade, half came down to bid their farewell. Immediately after the funeral, a large riot broke out in Belgrade. The supporters of Osman Pazvantoglu tried to attempt a coup in Belgrade. The Janissaries loyal to Hadzi Mustafa fought fiercely back to keep Belgrade out of the hands of Pazvantoglu’s supporters. The conflict ended at night when the Sancak Militia aided the loyalist Janissaries. Deputy of Hadzi Mustafa, Omer Efendi, sent a letter to Istanbul what happened in Belgrade. As a result, Karamanli Mehmed Pasha was sent with a regiment consisting of 3,000 men to take his task as governor of Belgrade. The week after the assassination attempt, Osman Pazvantoglu was captured, trying to cross the Danube. Milos Obrenovic was appointed by Mehmed Pasha as the head of the Sancak Militia. A controversial decision as Obrenovic was a rebel. But joining Hadzi Mustafa and aiding him to defeat Karadorde had proven enough of his loyalty.
Hadzi Mustafa assassinated, 1811
Damascus got shafted lol. How are the roads in the empire. It be good to do a roman and build roads for the army to use and all go to Istanbul.
What's going to happen to the ottoman harem? Are they going to replace all the concubines with muslim princesses?
Btw one of the richest people of all time literally all time was the Nizam of hyderabad. While not that rich yet they are the richest kingdom in india now. So mysore fighting and has great leadership, is the Nizam using his wealth like a lannister and modernising Hyderabad they have the money to build the strongest, best trained and equipped army in asia are they doing this cause they can take the coast then.
Also why did Santísima Trinidad get posted and not then be mentioned?
@Nivek (anyone cans answer if you want) can probs answer this as a latin american you want spanish rule to go as fast as possible right. So Simon Bolivar is coming closer and closer. Part of his early plans was to ger foreign support such as Britain. What about Morroco instead? They hold a Caribbean island, they are doing really well right now and causing a shitstorm for spain they would love to do it. Can morroco make an meaningful change for latin america.
I know I wasnt asked but I think Morroco could send money or help with suplies, if England lets them and Spain its too busy trying to gain back their core territory (which they are). The problem is I not shure if Morroco is gonna benefit that much from it, maybe they could blackmail the Spaniards about helping the independentist patriots in America to gain concessions in Africa and the Mediterranean. Or maybe the could try to snach Canarias from them.
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