The Golden Dragon of Wales: A Glyndwr Rebellion TL

[RPW@Cy]

Thanks for the map!
Norfolk is an enclave - it is cut off from the rest of Percy holdings by The Wash. It only can be reached by boat without going through Mortimer's lands. Is there some human geography behind awarding it to the North?

No idea. given that most of the wealth and population of England are in the south I suspect it's supposed to be some attempt at an equal split on those grounds.

Another question - does Wales have an archbishop? Having a churchamn of that rank under one's control was highly conducive to independence. One of the reasons for Poland and Hungary retaining independence and Czechia becoming part of HRE was the possession - or not - of an archbishop. But that was 1000-1200 stuff, so maybe in 1400 things are different.

No, although obtaining one was a goal of Glyndwr's (or reviving to be more precise, St David's was usually regarded as an archbishopric from the time of it's titular saint until the Norman conquest of the area in the 12th century) - he went so far as to back the Avignon papacy during the schism that was going on at the time in the hope of getting French support, but the war took a turn for the worse before this could happen.

Prince of Wales - with a docile archbishop he can crown himself King of Wales.

Probably not a problem -the Welsh bishops tended to be a fairly wayward bunch...

The map isn't showing a Percy Northamptonshire or Warwickshire either.
Tbh I've not seen an accurate map on what the Indenture was. Look at this version:

That's from the Wikipedia article, which unfortunately doesn't match up to the words of the article, which says -

Northumberland was to have received the north, as well as Northamptonshire, Norfolk, Warwickshire, and Leicestershire. The Mortimers were to have received the rest of southern England.

The four named counties are included in the pink area on this map not the blue, though they are assigned correctly in the earlier map.

 

[RPW@Cy]

Incidentally, I think the precise border between Percy and Mortimer is going to be some degree irrelevant - after this war is over the wars to reunify England will start almost immediately and will probably take the place of the Wars of the Roses when it comes to tearing up most of the 15th century. Bad for England, but it's the sort of break that Wales will need.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

I wonder if there would be Wars of Unification. Maybe the York Kingdom and the London Kingdom live (unhappily) alongside, busy with internal problems?
So, as Archbishops go - with there being two (in not three by this time) Popes, then getting one should not be that too much of a problem?
RPW@Cy seems to be correct on Norfolk having been added to the North for some human political/economic reason.

 

[The Professor]

The four named counties are included in the pink area on this map not the blue, though they are assigned correctly in the earlier map.

It didn't look like Nants was but maybe that me!

 

[The Professor]

What was the agreed relationship between Percy England and Mortimer England?
Ie was Mortimer King with Percy as his vassal as Prince of the North or something?

 

[RPW@Cy]

What was the agreed relationship between Percy England and Mortimer England?
Ie was Mortimer King with Percy as his vassal as Prince of the North or something?

This timeline is at risk of suffering from a surfeit of Mortimers...

The Edmund Mortimer who is proposed to be king (as legitimate heir of Richard II) isn't the Edmund Mortimer who's currently Glyndwr's prisoner, it's his nephew the Edmund Mortimer who is the future 5th Earl of March and is currently a 13 year old boy who is a prisoner of Henry IV. I suspect the plan (I very much doubt it went into that sort of detail) is that Edmund Sr. and Northumberland act as regents in his name in their respective territories should the alliance ever succeed in overthrowing Henry IV and liberating Edmund Jr. If Edmund Jr. (and his brother Roger, also Henry's prisoner) die in captivity instead then I've no idea who Richard II's heir is - it may even be Henry IV, which won't go down well.

 

[The Professor]

This timeline is at risk of suffering from a surfeit of Mortimers...

The Edmund Mortimer who is proposed to be king (as legitimate heir of Richard II) isn't the Edmund Mortimer who's currently Glyndwr's prisoner, it's his nephew the Edmund Mortimer who is the future 5th Earl of March and is currently a 13 year old boy who is a prisoner of Henry IV. I suspect the plan (I very much doubt it went into that sort of detail) is that Edmund Sr. and Northumberland act as regents in his name in their respective territories should the alliance ever succeed in overthrowing Henry IV and liberating Edmund Jr. If Edmund Jr. (and his brother Roger, also Henry's prisoner) die in captivity instead then I've no idea who Richard II's heir is - it may even be Henry IV, which won't go down well.

As for heirs, going by the male preference primogeniture pattern that made Edmund the presumptive heir we have
Roger, his brother.
Anne, his sister. OTL she married Richard Earl of Cambridge 1406. They were parents of Richard Duke of York and thus founded the York claim to the throne
Eleanor, his sister. OTL she married Sir Edward Courtenay heir to Earl of Devon in 1409. They had no children.
Then heirs of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster.
Then heirs of Edmund of Langley, Duke of York.

So it depends what happens to Cambridge if Roger and Edmund both die. And who Eleanor marries.

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

I just discovered this TL and it's very well written, clear, concise yet exhaustive, on a much overlooked and therefore interesting topic.

Did I read that well? I'm not a native English speaker, but that piece took me both a laugh and a doubt on my knowledge of the language. I didn't know they were so progressive at the time .

Thanks!

Its medieval legal speak, so "Welshman" just means someone from Wales.

Thanks for the map!
Norfolk is an enclave - it is cut off from the rest of Percy holdings by The Wash. It only can be reached by boat without going through Mortimer's lands. Is there some human geography behind awarding it to the North?
Another question - does Wales have an archbishop? Having a churchamn of that rank under one's control was highly conducive to independence. One of the reasons for Poland and Hungary retaining independence and Czechia becoming part of HRE was the possession - or not - of an archbishop. But that was 1000-1200 stuff, so maybe in 1400 things are different.
Prince of Wales - with a docile archbishop he can crown himself King of Wales.

As has been said, St Davids' bishop could be 'promoted' to an archbishop and this was something Glyndwr discussed in his Pennal letter IOTL.

as a guy with welsh roots i am fascinated

Thanks!

What was the agreed relationship between Percy England and Mortimer England?
Ie was Mortimer King with Percy as his vassal as Prince of the North or something?

My understanding is they became separate realms with Percy as King of the North and Edmund Mortimer, Earl of March, as King of the South, with his uncle as regent.

 

[galileo-034]

My misunderstanding of that excerpt, and I assumed it was one indeed, came from the word Englishwoman being used right before the said excerpt in the opposite case (Welshmen marrying a Englishwoman in the text), being here a break in the coherence. And still, that was funny to imagine.

 

[galileo-034]

From there, he moved onto Machynlleth where he called the first Cynulliad, or Parliament, of his reign and was finally crowned as Prince of Wales at Cynulliad House in the presence of his supporters, including Edmund Mortimer and the Hamners, as well as representatives from the lords of Brittany, France and Scotland.

Who were the representatives of France, Britanny and Scotland mentionned at Glyndwr's coronation? Were they here on an unofficial character, were they of a low rank nobility?

 

[TruthfulPanda]

My misunderstanding of that excerpt, and I assumed it was one indeed, came from the word Englishwoman being used right before the said excerpt in the opposite case (Welshmen marrying a Englishwoman in the text), being here a break in the coherence. And still, that was funny to imagine.

Me too

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

My misunderstanding of that excerpt, and I assumed it was one indeed, came from the word Englishwoman being used right before the said excerpt in the opposite case (Welshmen marrying a Englishwoman in the text), being here a break in the coherence. And still, that was funny to imagine.

Me too

My mistake then!

Who were the representatives of France, Britanny and Scotland mentionned at Glyndwr's coronation? Were they here on an unofficial character, were they of a low rank nobility?

That detail is based on OTL and since there is no record I can find of who they were IOTL, my guess is low ranking nobility already in Wales. Perhaps commanders of their respective nations' forces in Wales.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

I guess that the North could assume names like North, Northumber(land) (was this early medieval name known/used in this era?) or York.
Are there possible names for the South? Maybe simply England, while the North adopts a different name? Any other possible name for the South?
BTW - do the Welsh also use a term like Sassenach?

 

[Prof_Chemical]

I guess that the North could assume names like North, Northumber(land) (was this early medieval name known/used in this era?) or York.
Are there possible names for the South? Maybe simply England, while the North adopts a different name? Any other possible name for the South?
BTW - do the Welsh also use a term like Sassenach?

modern welsh language calls the english saesneg ie saxon, being an english speaker tho i (a welshman) call them anglos, as in anglophone but if i mean specifically englishmen i use english. i know mercia was used inplace of midlands long into the medieval period so perhaps nothumb-ria/erland would also be in use? dont know what thed call the south tho. Maybe monarch names for the realms? percyslaw and mortimerslaw?

 

[TruthfulPanda]

OK - Saesneg then

 

[The Professor]

My understanding is they became separate realms with Percy as King of the North and Edmund Mortimer, Earl of March, as King of the South, with his uncle as regent.

If they're successful I guess you can make them anything you want
I suspect it may have been vague in the agreement as they hadn't decided on titles and future claims yet. Anything from separate monarchs to co-monarchs to regents. Whatever they feel would prevent war between Percy and Mortimer. At the least I see them holding title as Steward of the North/South.

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

I guess that the North could assume names like North, Northumber(land) (was this early medieval name known/used in this era?) or York.
Are there possible names for the South? Maybe simply England, while the North adopts a different name? Any other possible name for the South?
BTW - do the Welsh also use a term like Sassenach?

Northumbria is a possibility for the North and for the south I was thinking just England, but Wessex could be a possibility.

If they're successful I guess you can make them anything you want
I suspect it may have been vague in the agreement as they hadn't decided on titles and future claims yet. Anything from separate monarchs to co-monarchs to regents. Whatever they feel would prevent war between Percy and Mortimer. At the least I see them holding title as Steward of the North/South.

Of course. I guess you'll have to wait and see.

 

[RPW@Cy]

I guess that the North could assume names like North, Northumber(land) (was this early medieval name known/used in this era?) or York.

It was always simply "The North".

Are there possible names for the South? Maybe simply England, while the North adopts a different name? Any other possible name for the South?

Almost certainly just England.

BTW - do the Welsh also use a term like Sassenach?

Sais = Englishman
Saesnes = Englishwoman
Saesneg = English (adjective, as in English language)

None of these bear any relation to the name for England, which is Lloegr and is an archaic word that means something like "The Lost Lands" (or Occupied Territories as I once heard a nationalist with a somewhat political sense of humour translate it...).

If they're successful I guess you can make them anything you want
I suspect it may have been vague in the agreement as they hadn't decided on titles and future claims yet. Anything from separate monarchs to co-monarchs to regents. Whatever they feel would prevent war between Percy and Mortimer. At the least I see them holding title as Steward of the North/South.

The problem we have is that the original text hasn't survived and we have to rely on summaries in various mediaeval chronicles, not all of which are very reliable. The most detailed summary I've found is in The Revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr by R.R Davies, where it talks about each lord ruling his share in "full and equal sovereignty" and a dispute between any two of them being referred to the arbitration of the third. The reference to sovereignty can certainly be held to refer to separate kingdoms, on the other hand the reference to mandatory arbitration suggests a single kingdom ruled by a triumvirate. It's all very vague and contradictory, and I suspect that it wouldn't last beyond the first time one of the three is unhappy with the results of the arbitration.

 

[Droman]

Northumbria is a possibility for the North and for the south I was thinking just England, but Wessex could be a possibility.

Just name it after the respective capitals. One of them is in London, maybe the other is in York.

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

Just name it after the respective capitals. One of them is in London, maybe the other is in York.

Not a bad shout, but I prefer Northumbria over York.