The Fire Never Dies: Labor's Star Ascendant

I am concerned that a proponent of eugenics is in the position of Commissar of Health (especially for so long), but her Wikipedia page seems to indicate that her views in this regard were relatively milder and not necessarily racially based unlike many others at the time. How her views evolve during her time in government could affect these views (including others, such as her opinion on abortion) as well.
I haven't decided yet what Red America's stance on eugenics will be. As you've stated, Sanger was a moderate proponent and opposed punitive measures.
At first I thought it was a fluke, but I'm starting to notice a trend in authors for the sources.
It amuses me to imagine conservative politicos as socialist historians. I was inspired by Reds using Sean Hannity.
 
I haven't decided yet what Red America's stance on eugenics will be. As you've stated, Sanger was a moderate proponent and opposed punitive measures.

It amuses me to imagine conservative politicos as socialist historians. I was inspired by Reds using Sean Hannity.

I get that. It amused me too once I noticed.
 
I get that. It amused me too once I noticed.
There is some reasoning. It wouldn't feel right to just recast conservative politicos as socialist politicians, but it also feels mean-spirited to condemn them to obscurity. So I imagine that they chose alternate career paths.

Here are my brief alt-biographies of those who weren't historians ITTL (and a couple of people who haven't been mentioned):
George W. Bush: Recently retired from the Red Air Force with the rank of Major General.
Tucker Carlson: A prominent sportscaster.
Tom Clancy: Became a military historian. Red Star Rising catapulted him to mainstream prominence.
Newt Gingrich: As mentioned before, he is the best known writer of alternate history ITTL.
John McCain: Ended up in diplomatic service rather than politics.
Rand Paul: Went into epidemiology instead of opthamology. He actually did dabble in politics, serving two terms in the Chamber of Delegates (representing United Healthcare Workers) before returning to medicine.
Condoleeza Rice: Remained in academia.
Hillary Rodham: Spent a career in government service, culminating in three years as Commissar for Justice.
Aaron Sorkin: One of America's most recognized political commentators.
Matt Ward: Ended up in academia (although he is an avid Warhammer player).
 
John McCain: Ended up in diplomatic service rather than politics.
...Honestly, given the massive divergences from OTL I bet that if McCain entered the Navy like IOTL (which he probably would do if he could as his family had a tradition of military service) there's a good chance he wouldn't become a POW and leave the military due to disability so would stay in the military. Maybe ending up an admiral like his father?

Or still become a politician in the ASU; from what I can tell he'd probably be a socialist ITTL given the different environment and his personal beliefs IOTL. (Things like standing up to bullies in the Naval Academy, supporting Civil Rights, Native Americans, campaign finance reform, taxes on the tobacco industry, efforts to curb climate change, ect.)
 
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...Honestly, given the massive divergences from OTL I bet that if McCain entered the Navy like IOTL (which he probably would do if he could as his family had a tradition of military service) there's a good chance he wouldn't become a POW and leave the military due to disability so would stay in the military. Maybe ending up an admiral like his father?

Or still become a politician in the ASU; from what I can tell he'd probably be a socialist ITTL given the different environment and his personal beliefs IOTL. (Things like standing up to bullies in the Naval Academy, supporting Civil Rights, Native Americans, campaign finance reform, taxes on the tobacco industry, efforts to curb climate change, ect.)
Possible. John McCain Sr. (Senator McCain's grandfather) was an officer on the San Diego, which was among the ships at Norfolk that defected. That said, he could easily have become an ambassador after retiring at flag rank.
 
68. Blood in the Rockies
…The success of General Young and the Army of the Rockies seems incongruous. They were completely cut off from any external support and had little in the way of industry. Despite this, they would survive not only 1917, but most of 1918…

…There are, as expected, multiple factors. Offensive operations were impeded by the mountainous terrain, but this does not explain why the Reds lost ground during 1917. Some accounts have placed the blame on Joe Hill, who led the Red Army in Utah, but while Hill was no military genius (and would resign from the Red Army after the war), he was far from incompetent. If he had a flaw, it was being overly cautious. It is also telling that while linking up with Pancho Villa helped stabilize the front in eastern Utah, the Red Army did not launch any successful counteroffensives…

…Of greater concern was poor coordination. Throughout 1917, Red forces in the Rockies remained divided between Hill’s Utahns, Vincent St. John’s Nevadans, Louis Tikas’s Coloradoans, and Pancho Villa’s Mexicans, with no central leadership. Some of this was due to communications difficulties, but St. John in particular strenuously resisted any notion of accepting Tikas as overall commander. The dispute was only resolved by Bronstein’s intervention, when he ordered all governors in command of military forces to either resign their political or military positions. Like his fellow firebrand William Trautmann, St. John chose the Red Army, receiving a promotion to Lieutenant General and command of the Army of Denver (which included Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, and Nevada). The decision to name the army after the Coloradoan capital was largely a political move to mollify Governor Charles Moyer, who had argued vociferously that Tikas was the superior general and should have been given command over St. John. Bronstein agreed with this assessment, but not only was he worried about St. John defying orders, he also believed that Villa was actually the best commander in the Rocky Mountains theater. He did privately warn St. John to listen closely to his subordinates’ advice…

…There was one other factor impeding the Red advance. While he had received his command from President Wilson, General Richard Young was quickly cut off from not only logistical support, but even communications with Washington. Instead, he turned to the Church of Latter-Day Saints, which his father, Brigham Young, had been a prominent figure in, and which dominated Utahn society. The Army of the Rockies was quickly dominated by Mormons, especially among the lower ranks. His recruitment campaign promoted the image of the Reds as godless atheists who sought to destroy the Church. The result was that the Army of the Rockies fought with religious fervor, experiencing by far the lowest rate of desertion among the White armies. They held their ground despite being perpetually undersupplied and outgunned…

…Arriving in March, the American Flu completely halted the Red offensive towards Sevier Lake and bought the Army of the Rockies time to bring up additional supplies. General Young took firm action to fight the disease when it reached his forces, although it still left him vulnerable when the Reds began to recover…

…Unfortunately, the zeal of the Army of the Rockies also led them to continue fighting long after any hope of a military victory had passed. Young suppressed any talk of surrender even when the Red Army reached the outskirts of Salt Lake City in August. In a grim rehearsal for the Battle of Washington, St. John was faced with the prospect of assaulting a heavily fortified city, and his solution was to use heavy artillery to reduce the city. Salt Lake City was virtually leveled as a result, killing thousands. The leadership of the Latter-Day Saints was nearly wiped out. The only survivor from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Orson F. Whitney[1], who had allowed himself to be captured at Lehi specifically to ensure that at least one member of the Quorum survived, and would become the first postwar President of the Church…

- From Red Star Rising: A History of the Second American Revolution by Tom Clancy

[1] IOTL, Whitney is best known as the author of several Mormon hymns.
 
Oof. I figured the rockies fight was gonna get nasty
I briefly considered having the Mormons surrender, but I decided that I hadn't done enough to depict just how ugly this war could get, and it seemed reasonable that an army running on religious fervor defending the center of their faith would choose to fight to the death. Vincent St. John will be to many Mormons and Utahns what William Tecumseh Sherman was to the South.

1918 is where the war will get really ugly. The Whites have their backs to the wall, with most people who were inclined to desert or defect having done so (those that weren't purged). While not as determined as the Mormons, they have plenty of patriotic zeal, increasingly tinged (or tainted) with racial prejudice. Unfortunately, they're up against what might actually be the best-equipped army in the world. The Reds control the vast majority of America's industrial might, and they've had time to organize it. Bronstein, Haywood, Trautmann, Jones, and the other Red Army commanders know this. They are in a perfect position to wage a campaign of "steel not flesh". When faced with entrenched enemy positions, they will rely on overwhelming firepower to pound their enemies into dust.
Which states are in white hands at this point?
The Whites control all of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Louisiana, and of course the District of Columbia. They also have the vast majority of Texas, Arkansas, North Carolina, Maryland, Delaware, and Virginia outside Norfolk. Western Kentucky and Tennessee are also in White hands, along with Southern California and a few bits of other states (Cairo, Illinois, for example, is currently held by troops under a George C. Marshall). Mind you, that's just where things stand in March 1918. This latest chapter is a bit of a look ahead, and we will be covering other events that run in parallel with the Utah campaign. There is also a sizeable insurgency in Louisiana, southern Arkansas, and eastern Texas.
 
Not going to lie: Part of me was hoping for the complete destruction of Mormonism as a by-product of this war.

Alas, that damnable Quick-Wit Whitney has something to say about it.
 
And if the future is similar enough, people will think that there was only one way both were wrong: that they stopped too soon.
The Mormons will probably be a conservative element in the future, but there is no way that they will ever be seen as badly as the South, because they just don't have the political and demographic importance of the South. And, you know, no slavery and Jim Crow...that counts a lot too.
 

CalBear

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Not going to lie: Part of me was hoping for the complete destruction of Mormonism as a by-product of this war.

Alas, that damnable Quick-Wit Whitney has something to say about it.
Don't.

Religious bigotry rarely ends well here for the poster.
 
Not going to lie: Part of me was hoping for the complete destruction of Mormonism as a by-product of this war.

Alas, that damnable Quick-Wit Whitney has something to say about it.
Leaving aside that it would have felt mean-spirited (and I have no wish to face CalBear's wrath), the Mormons had enough of an international presence that they would have survived. For that matter, there are Mormons in the Red Army.
And if the future is similar enough, people will think that there was only one way both were wrong: that they stopped too soon.
Others will wonder if there was an alternative. Perhaps if St. John had been less aggressive (or if someone else had commanded the Army of Denver), he might have gotten the Army of the Rockies to surrender. It doesn't help that his promotion was politically-motivated. However, once he reached Salt Lake City, he didn't have much choice. It was either starve them out, launch a bloody mass assault, or crush them with artillery. And Villa would probably have been just as aggressive.
The Mormons will probably be a conservative element in the future, but there is no way that they will ever be seen as badly as the South, because they just don't have the political and demographic importance of the South. And, you know, no slavery and Jim Crow...that counts a lot too.
Workable Goblin has it right. The Mormons aren't going to be vilified in the future anywhere near the Confederates. They aren't even going to be the most vilified religious denomination after the Revolution. That would be Southern Baptists, who are much more involved with the KKK and the ongoing genocide of African-Americans.

The big question is how the Mormons will adapt to the reality of Socialist America. There will be serious pressure to reform some of their doctrines and attitudes, lest they lose out to the more liberal denominations. Some of them might try to establish a new Church based outside American territory, possibly leading to a schism between Red and White Mormons.
 
The big question is how the Mormons will adapt to the reality of Socialist America. There will be serious pressure to reform some of their doctrines and attitudes, lest they lose out to the more liberal denominations.
Eh, I don't know about that. Look at how Catholics were responding to similar pressures at this time; they more or less proudly said that they were totally not modern and going with the times, and this was a selling point for them (it still is, to some extent, though Vatican II took some of the winds out of that attitude's sails). There's a similar story for fundamentalist and evangelical churches at this time, or of course you could always go look at Anabaptist and similar groups. I think it's quite imaginable that Mormons, in general, decide not to bend but hunker down, withdraw from secular politics, and insist that they are right and the Reds are wrong, without doing anything to actually cause the Reds to crack down. In the long run there is certainly some suggestive but inconclusive evidence from the modern world that this might be more successful at retaining followers and influence than the other approach.
 
Eh, I don't know about that. Look at how Catholics were responding to similar pressures at this time; they more or less proudly said that they were totally not modern and going with the times, and this was a selling point for them (it still is, to some extent, though Vatican II took some of the winds out of that attitude's sails). There's a similar story for fundamentalist and evangelical churches at this time, or of course you could always go look at Anabaptist and similar groups. I think it's quite imaginable that Mormons, in general, decide not to bend but hunker down, withdraw from secular politics, and insist that they are right and the Reds are wrong, without doing anything to actually cause the Reds to crack down. In the long run there is certainly some suggestive but inconclusive evidence from the modern world that this might be more successful at retaining followers and influence than the other approach.
The "hunker down" approach is certainly possible, provided they do withdraw from secular politics for a while. Eventually, there will be a "conservative socialist" faction emerging that fully embraces socialist economic policies but is conservative on social issues. We actually got something like this in the Soviet Union, but in America they'll be the minority.
 
We actually got something like this in the Soviet Union, but in America they'll be the minority.
As I've said before, I'm skeptical that they would be, or at least would consistently and always be in the minority. If nothing else, I'm sure sometimes the ruling party would screw up and people would want to punish them. Although I suppose you might end up with an LDP situation where, yeah, they get punished...occasionally...but the opposition is so incompetent they always get voted back in a little while later.
 
As I've said before, I'm skeptical that they would be, or at least would consistently and always be in the minority. If nothing else, I'm sure sometimes the ruling party would screw up and people would want to punish them. Although I suppose you might end up with an LDP situation where, yeah, they get punished...occasionally...but the opposition is so incompetent they always get voted back in a little while later.
I'm actually leaning towards something like the LDP in Japan for the SLP. Also, this conservative socialist party (need a better name) won't be the only opposition.
 
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