I am wondering will vedanta Society and sikh organizations take steps to feed poor and destitute in this timeline? Ramkrishna misson not going to fight war but I think they are willing to serve and feed poor and treat those who suffering illnesses.
The Fire Never Dies: Labor's Star Ascendant
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They will, along with many other religious organizations. They will be particularly needed in California.
This post about the West Coast has me thinking about the Chinese Exclusion Act and, by extension, how America post-revolution might handle its immigration policy. It’s probably safe to assume America will have a much more open immigration policy, and it is interesting to consider to what degree America’s ideological change will affect how attractive it looks to immigrants generally as well. Given that America will also likely be far more lax and open about birth control and abortion as well and we might see an America that has a significantly larger percentage of its population as immigrants as time goes on.
Definitely. Given that a high proportion of socialist leaders are themselves immigrants (Leon Bronstein, Willaim Trautmann, Adolph Germer, Daniel DeLeon, Morris Hillquit), it's likely that the ASU will have what amounts to an open border policy. At the same time, the perception of socialism will result in fewer people from Europe wanting to emigrate. So America will end up being a lot less white.
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I'm wondering if what's left of the United States government is going to end up fleeing to one of the overseas territories. Reds! of course had the white exiles flee to Cuba and unilaterally declare it a state because irony. I assume other candidates could be Puerto Rico, Hawaii or Alaska.
Not an official territory, but maybe Liberia for the sheer irony of it, though that would be absolutely horrifying what you think about the implications for a second.
Not an official territory, but maybe Liberia for the sheer irony of it, though that would be absolutely horrifying what you think about the implications for a second.
I mean honestly Wilson is liable to just die from one of his strokes so execution seems unnecessary
On the other hand, though, there's always been a strain of anti-immigrationism in the American working class, including among recent immigrants ("we're fine, but those guys aren't!"). There will definitely be pressure from below to restrict immigration (and otherwise not to be quite so socially liberal), even after the Revolution, so I think the open border period probably won't actually last too long. It's likely it won't get as restrictionist as IOTL, but some degree of restrictions are likely to be put into place.
All of the above, plus various other fates, particularly death from illness or death from battle.
The IWW, both IOTL and ITTL, fought against those strains. The AFL favored immigration restrictions to avoid immigrants being used as strikebreakers. ITTL, the IWW's response was to organize the immigrants themselves, which they've done successfully. Of course, the anti-immigrant attitudes won't disappear, but they aren't getting anywhere near the upper rungs of power.
If I'm not mistaken, Wilson was historically prone to quite poor health to the point where his wife was de facto president while he was incapacitated at one point and of course he died only a few years after the war ended.
I'm pretty sure the stress is going to end up killing him.
That will be true for a time, but politics shifts and changes...even in the real U.S., you had shortly after this point in the real world extreme immigration restrictions, only to be followed by a great loosening forty years later, which in turn...well, that's current politics, but suffice it to say that unrestricted immigration is not uncontroversial. Assuming that the Second Revolution doesn't set up a dictatorship (and even there you could always have a politically conservative "Stalin" get into power somehow or another), there is going to be effects from what the people as a whole want, and that is likely to not be unrestricted immigration, certainly at some future point if not right away.
In other words, there will likely be ebbs and flows in what policies the country follows, particularly when you consider various informal methods of enacting policies as opposed to just what the law says. The same will be true of other socially liberal policies, too, similarly to how interest in feminism has waxed and waned at different points in time or how, perhaps even more illustratively, attitudes towards sex have tended to alternate between libertine periods like the 1920s or 1970s and more prudish periods like the 1980s. No country's history is an unwavering trajectory of progress towards some end, after all.
While it’s true that attitudes on issues are always shifting, including in less than positive directions, I think that the ASU maintaining an essentially open door policy isn’t unreasonable, although it certainly isn’t inevitable. There will undoubtedly be at least some restrictions, such as on spies or possibly people who the government terms “capitalist” (whether it be on the basis of ownership of property in other countries or ideology could be an in-universe point of policy debate). Other groups are possible targets for exclusion as well, but these two were what I thought of off the top of my head. It all depends on how far the Overton window is pushed during the revolutionary fervor before a conservative reaction pushes back. And, while I can’t cite a study to provide hard numbers as to how much of an impact this would have, there would no longer be capitalists in America who take advantage of sowing such divisions between people. Bigotry and bias won’t just disappear, of course, but I think that would at least take some of the wind out of its sails even ignoring how the the new revolutionary government will try to actively reduce such attitudes, at least until the people currently leading lose influence.
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This is another great and exciting chapter. I loved the Red Samurais!
Is there no-one on either side who seeks reconciliation, a compromise, an end to the blood-letting?
Is there no-one on either side who seeks reconciliation, a compromise, an end to the blood-letting?
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Effectively no one anywhere near power. Neither Debs nor Wilson would accept anything short of total surrender. Wilson sees himself as the defender of the status quo, while Debs knows that the IWW is currently stronger and won't give that away.
The one chance to head this off was FDR's proposal. His idea was to end the strike by ordering the bosses to give in on most of the workers' demands. An end to shipping arms to Europe wasn't going to happen, but they might have been able to overcome that if they included generous hazard pay. Mind you, that scenario (which will be a popular subject for alternate history ITTL) would almost certainly lead to Debs winning the 1920 election.
On the topic of the West Coast: What is Upton Sinclair currently up to in California?
Fortunately for him, he hasn't yet moved to California (he did that in the 1920s). His experience when researching for The Jungle led Leon Bronstein to recruit him for the New York Committee of Public Safety. He's currently a captain on Bronstein's staff, in fact.
55. The Battle of Erlanger
…The further losses suffered by the Army of the Plains in August 1917 convinced the War Department that they needed a new approach in the Midwest. Not only was Liggett holding on to less and less territory, but the series of defeats he had suffered had sunk the morale of the Army of the Plains to the point that desertion was becoming a serious problem. Simply reinforcing Liggett was not going to work. But nor could they allow the Reds to take the entire Midwest…
…One of the early victories for the Whites had been Kentucky. While the eastern Appalachians were solidly held by Mother Jones and the Army of Knoxville, most of the state had been secured. Brigadier Guy Carleton had been overseeing the training of new troops at Camp Zachary Taylor, outside Louisville[1]. On September 1, Carleton was promoted to major general and named commander of the Army of the Ohio. His objective was in the name of his force: retake Ohio for the Whites, and cut off the Midwest from the East Coast…
…His first target would be Cincinnati. Red forces had secured the towns of Covington and Newport, south of the Ohio River, but nearby Florence and Erlanger remained under White control. On September 10, Carleton marched the Army of the Ohio north along the river. He maintained a cavalry force along the north bank as well as every river barge he could get his hands on, ensuring that the river would not be an impassable barrier to him. By September 19, his troops were in Florence and his engineers were building a bridge across the Ohio. His plan was to hit Cincinnati from the north and Covington from the south, taking advantage of his superior numbers…
…Unfortunately for Carleton, his opponents had been preparing their own countermeasures. Among the industrial centers that fell to the Reds in May was the Dow Chemical Company plant in Midland, Michigan. After an acrimonious debate, the GDC had authorized them to start producing chemical weapons. The weapons were relatively primitive chlorine and phosgene, but the White forces had effectively no countermeasures, as it was assumed that the Reds lacked the capacity for such sophisticated weapons. On September 25, the Army of Cincinnati launched their own assault on Erlanger, and they preceded it with a chemical barrage. The barrage was not as effective as desired – in an effort to ensure that there would be no accidental exposures of their own troops, the chemical shells used by Red forces often failed to release their payloads, nor were they able to reliable achieve sufficient concentrations. But the simple shock of being gassed was enough to throw the Army of the Ohio into a panic. Carleton had the advantage of numbers, but his troops were almost entirely fresh recruits. He had also made the critical mistake of not bringing the veterans of the Indiana and Michigan National Guard, instead using them to protect his flank against the Army of Knoxville in the Appalachians. By contrast, the troops in Cincinnati were experienced from a summer of warfare. When the White forces managed to get organized for a counterattack, the Reds held their new positions despite heavy casualties of their own. Carleton was not driven from Florence, but his army had been battered…
…Nor were they only facing the Army of Cincinnati. On September 28, the Army of Detroit crossed the Ohio into Carrollton, cutting off Carleton’s line of retreat to Louisville. As the Army of the Ohio marched south to Lexington, many of the soldiers deserted. Relatively few actually joined the other side, but they no longer wanted to fight. At best, Carleton had delayed a potential offensive from Cincinnati. At worst, he had frittered away much of his strength for little gain…
…The first use of chemical weapons in the Second American Revolution was highly controversial, and Eugene Debs was criticized at the time for it. Debs later wrote that he himself wondered if he had been justified. More recently, it has been argued that the Army of Detroit taking Carrollton was the real reason for Carleton’s retreat. White propagandists certainly trumped up the image of the Red Army as Germanic barbarians with no regard for the mores of civilized peoples. But this was not a civilized war. In retrospect, the use of chemical weapons at Erlanger pales in comparison to atrocities before and afterwards…
- From Red Star Rising: A History of the Second American Revolution by Tom Clancy
[1] IOTL, Carleton commanded Camp Zachary Taylor and later Camp Wadsworth, South Carolina during World War I.
…One of the early victories for the Whites had been Kentucky. While the eastern Appalachians were solidly held by Mother Jones and the Army of Knoxville, most of the state had been secured. Brigadier Guy Carleton had been overseeing the training of new troops at Camp Zachary Taylor, outside Louisville[1]. On September 1, Carleton was promoted to major general and named commander of the Army of the Ohio. His objective was in the name of his force: retake Ohio for the Whites, and cut off the Midwest from the East Coast…
…His first target would be Cincinnati. Red forces had secured the towns of Covington and Newport, south of the Ohio River, but nearby Florence and Erlanger remained under White control. On September 10, Carleton marched the Army of the Ohio north along the river. He maintained a cavalry force along the north bank as well as every river barge he could get his hands on, ensuring that the river would not be an impassable barrier to him. By September 19, his troops were in Florence and his engineers were building a bridge across the Ohio. His plan was to hit Cincinnati from the north and Covington from the south, taking advantage of his superior numbers…
…Unfortunately for Carleton, his opponents had been preparing their own countermeasures. Among the industrial centers that fell to the Reds in May was the Dow Chemical Company plant in Midland, Michigan. After an acrimonious debate, the GDC had authorized them to start producing chemical weapons. The weapons were relatively primitive chlorine and phosgene, but the White forces had effectively no countermeasures, as it was assumed that the Reds lacked the capacity for such sophisticated weapons. On September 25, the Army of Cincinnati launched their own assault on Erlanger, and they preceded it with a chemical barrage. The barrage was not as effective as desired – in an effort to ensure that there would be no accidental exposures of their own troops, the chemical shells used by Red forces often failed to release their payloads, nor were they able to reliable achieve sufficient concentrations. But the simple shock of being gassed was enough to throw the Army of the Ohio into a panic. Carleton had the advantage of numbers, but his troops were almost entirely fresh recruits. He had also made the critical mistake of not bringing the veterans of the Indiana and Michigan National Guard, instead using them to protect his flank against the Army of Knoxville in the Appalachians. By contrast, the troops in Cincinnati were experienced from a summer of warfare. When the White forces managed to get organized for a counterattack, the Reds held their new positions despite heavy casualties of their own. Carleton was not driven from Florence, but his army had been battered…
…Nor were they only facing the Army of Cincinnati. On September 28, the Army of Detroit crossed the Ohio into Carrollton, cutting off Carleton’s line of retreat to Louisville. As the Army of the Ohio marched south to Lexington, many of the soldiers deserted. Relatively few actually joined the other side, but they no longer wanted to fight. At best, Carleton had delayed a potential offensive from Cincinnati. At worst, he had frittered away much of his strength for little gain…
…The first use of chemical weapons in the Second American Revolution was highly controversial, and Eugene Debs was criticized at the time for it. Debs later wrote that he himself wondered if he had been justified. More recently, it has been argued that the Army of Detroit taking Carrollton was the real reason for Carleton’s retreat. White propagandists certainly trumped up the image of the Red Army as Germanic barbarians with no regard for the mores of civilized peoples. But this was not a civilized war. In retrospect, the use of chemical weapons at Erlanger pales in comparison to atrocities before and afterwards…
- From Red Star Rising: A History of the Second American Revolution by Tom Clancy
[1] IOTL, Carleton commanded Camp Zachary Taylor and later Camp Wadsworth, South Carolina during World War I.
dentista campora
Banned
Now you have me wondering in what caricaturesque way will the yanks be portrayed by those empire cheerleader cartoons of Punch and the like