The Fates of the Grey Sisters if No 9 Days Rule?

[Kellan Sullivan]

I saw Philippa Gregory's book, The Last Tudor about the great-nieces of Henry VIII, the Grey sisters, today in a bookshop, which got me to thinking. Much has been made of Jane being successful in holding the throne, but what would her and her sisters' fates be if they had simply kept their heads down in Mary's reign?

Say Jane was unavailable to be Dudley's puppet (either because she's married elsewhere or he realizes very quickly that she's not going to be the pliable personality that he thought she was going to be)? I've read her own mother was against Dudley's plans from the beginning and when the rumours started that Jane was to be proclaimed queen, she fled to her parents' house from her husband to get away from Dudley.

Under the Catholic Mary they're likely to be viewed with suspicion for their Protestantism, but it'll be nothing compared to the microscope they're going to be under in Elizabeth's reign (and just for simplicity's sake, let's assume everything runs on as OTL from Edward's death, barring the Queen Jane rule/imprisonment interlude). The back cover of the book says something along the lines (I would imagine it's one of the sisters speaking): "in my mind Elizabeth has become a monster. She doesn't want family, or cousins. She wishes they would all be as dead as her mother. And she does love a big funeral".

I think it might be a bit harsh to say Elizabeth would rather they were dead, but let's face it, it would make her life a lot simpler. But without Jane's reign (and the perceived ambition that went with it), would the sisters still fare as OTL? Or might they have a better go of things? I'm not sure Elizabeth would name them as her successors anytime soon, nor would whoever's in charge want them (or their heirs) to wind up as Elizabeth's successors, but would their lives be very different from OTL? Jane's certainly if she keeps her head and stays out of jail. Would her opinions on religion soften somewhat with time? She was still a teenager when named queen, and teenagers don't always know when to shut up (even if it's good for them), but I'm wondering if age might bring wisdom in its train? What of Katherine's marriage to Lord Herbert? Would the marriage still be set aside? And what of the littlest of all of court, youngest sister, Mary? Would she be married elsewhere besides the sergeant-porter?

Please discuss

 

[desmirelle]

One: Stop reading bad fiction (Philippa Gregory). Immediately.

Two: Elizabeth's problem was mental. She saw what happened when the Monarch had no heir. Everyone kept coming to her as Mary got more ill and she was trying to circumvent that. She's still not going to like them - especially the tres attractive middle sister, Katherine. E lost it anytime anyone had a life that didn't involve her. She didn't want anyone to marry someone they love (unless they were at court and away from said beloved spouse, like Robert Dudley) - again, mental issue - a passive-aggressive jealousy. The Grey girls are not going to be 'happy' (or allowed to be) unless E actually changes mentally.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

One: Stop reading bad fiction (Philippa Gregory). Immediately.

I didn't buy or read the book, I merely saw the book, glanced at the dustjacket to see what nonsense Ms. Gregory is spinning this week, and put the book back on the shelf.

Two: Elizabeth's problem was mental. She saw what happened when the Monarch had no heir. Everyone kept coming to her as Mary got more ill and she was trying to circumvent that. She's still not going to like them - especially the tres attractive middle sister, Katherine. E lost it anytime anyone had a life that didn't involve her. She didn't want anyone to marry someone they love (unless they were at court and away from said beloved spouse, like Robert Dudley) - again, mental issue - a passive-aggressive jealousy. The Grey girls are not going to be 'happy' (or allowed to be) unless E actually changes mentally

Okay, so they don't have to be happy. But they will likely marry? I mean two of them were already married by the time Mary came to the throne. If no 9-days reign, would those marriages still be set aside? Mary wasn't a big fan of it OTL, look how she forced the marquess of Northampton and the Baroness Bourchier (who had been granted a divorce under Edward VI) back together. And if Liz comes to throne with Jane married to Dudley's brother and Katherine Grey (still) wed to Herbert, how would that affect matters?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Any other thoughts?

 

[mcdnab]

It is interesting - lets assume Edward VI still makes his device for the succession - but Northumberland has second thoughts and opts to support Mary's accession as the law decreed - despite his religion his swift action in supporting Mary ensures his survival and that of the Grey's
The marriages were dependent on the device - the Suffolk's were not apparently over keen on the matches especially Jane to Guildford (who was only a younger son) whereas Jane was the eldest daughter of a Duke and the great granddaughter of a King.

Mary now has control - her relationship with Francis Grey wasn't bad (she treated her quite well despite her daughter and husbands 'treason').
Mary also has fresh alternatives to keep Elizabeth under control - let's assume Jane lives quietly in the country with Dudley and Katherine stays with Pembroke and Mary remains at home with her parents - in this scenario the Suffolks and the Dudley's remain powerful, rich and influential - they might even nominally accept the Catholic faith etc.
Options for the future:
Suffolk and or Northumberland involve themselves in rebellions against the Queen's Spanish marriage and both or one fall foul - the fallout means Pembroke (who supported Mary orders his son to abandon his wife and Katherine's marriage is declared void) meaning Katherine and Jane both probably end up with their mother in straightened circumstances until Elizabeth's accession)
or
Both Duke's avoid trouble and survive Mary's reign becoming influential on Elizabeth's accession - Jane and Catherine remain married to their respective husbands and produce issue (there's no reason to suspect they wouldn't) - but both live under constant suspicion from Elizabeth as both remain high in the succession and nominally Jane is going to be regarded as Elizabeth's heir - further complicated by the fact that Jane is going to likely be quite close to her brother in law Robert Dudley the Queen's favourite.
Other options include Northumberland and Suffolk angling for Jane to be named heir during Elizabeth's smallpox attack - books and pamphlets exhorting the Grey/Dudley succession etc - Jane and Katherine's husband's falling out over the Suffolk inheritance when their father dies (the unentailed assets being divided between his daughter's)
Guildford in particular will be desperate to have more (being a younger son in this scenario - his elder brother John Earl of Warwick might live without a stint in the tower under Mary -Ambrose and Robert will also still be around) - so enough for a split between the sister's etc and one point if Suffolk lives then the girl's may have other siblings - Mary was born in 45 and Francis had three pregnancies by her second husband in the mid 50s so it isn't impossible given she was only 42 when she died in 59.
Jane and Katherine are likely to have families and their children will definitely be considered heirs by many at court and in the country - however their star might fall if the Mary Stuart situation works itself out as in otl - Elizabeth's succession problem was solved by the fact that the primogeniture heir was a male, a protestant and already a King - that trumped everything else. However in this scenario - you have two women with children who are rich and influential and well connected.
In reality the question of Elizabeth's relationship with Jane and Katherine has never been explored - their childhood unlike the Queen's was contented and settled - it is highly likely that the Queen might have resented Jane dating back to the day's of Catherine Parr's household and certainly she wasn't fond of any of her Royal relations whether that was due to personal dislike or her own insecurity about her legitimacy or the fact they threatened her crown is anyone's guess to be fair it also might have been due to Elizabeth's personal vanity - Jane in particular was very well educated and Katherine was also regarded as a beauty and of course both were younger than the Queen.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Could the presence of the Grey sisters (and the threat they might be viewed as) be enough to force Elizabeth into holy matrimony? She might not like the idea (given her experiences with her dad and sister), but in order to nix the threat of a Grey heir?

 

[mcdnab]

Could the presence of the Grey sisters (and the threat they might be viewed as) be enough to force Elizabeth into holy matrimony? She might not like the idea (given her experiences with her dad and sister), but in order to nix the threat of a Grey heir?

I doubt it to be honest - Internationally Elizabeth's spinsterhood was her main bargaining chip in playing off those opposed to England's Queen and her heresy - until her 40s the chance she would marry was the stick - domestically of course it weakened her a bit. Having legitimate descendants from the Grey's gave her a bit of an advantage in the early reign against Mary of Scots - they were the legal heirs under statute a point her diplomats in Scotland could make to Mary and her demands for recognition as Elizabeth's heir - if Mary's fate follows otl and James VI is born then the Grey's fade into the background somewhat but remain a stick to threaten James VI with in Elizabeth's later reign.