The Eternal Flame Dies Out: Rome Loses The Siege of Veii

SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Monopolist said:
If Rome suck its finger in the death clock, I don't think the outlook would be so good. :D
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Indeed. Though it's outlook is still better than it was for most of the 5th century BCE, where at one point Sabines occupied the Capitoline...


Also this is inadvertent but I smiled a bit at the picture of the siege of Masada being used. Rome obviously won't see such a great triumph over a foreign enemy ITTL. Although it does make me wonder how the Jews will be effected down the road....
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What a coincidence...I didn't know that was the siege of Masada but its fitting.

Good update.
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Gracias.
 

Grouchio

I wonder how the current Republican system in Veii differs from the Roman Republic. If the Rasna survive the Senonian invasions, we could see Veii (Thanks to it's prestige and wealth) take over as the head of the Etruscan League, and slowly bring together the warring city-states into a permanent federation that stays a regional power for some time with Veii as it's capital! Just a theory anyways.
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Grouchio said:
I wonder how the current Republican system in Veii differs from the Roman Republic. If the Rasna survive the Senonian invasions, we could see Veii (Thanks to it's prestige and wealth) take over as the head of the Etruscan League, and slowly bring together the warring city-states into a permanent federation that stays a regional power for some time with Veii as it's capital! Just a theory anyways.
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There was no "Etruscan League". The closest there was to an Etruscan League was likely some form of common religious oriented organization between the cities like was seen in Latium.

Though it remains to be seen what the future of Veii is.
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Shapur2 said:
Subscribed. This looks to be a VERY good TL!:)
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Thanks! Glad you like it so far. :D


I'll try and get another update up today or tonight. Since we are about to get hit with a foot of snow tonight, I'll almost certainly be off from school tomorrow. Then we get out early Tuesday and Wednesday, so I'll have a lot of time to write some updates....
 

Pururauka

Interesting; I take it that Rome will still manage to beat the Aequi and the Volsci and become a regional power?
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Pururauka said:
Interesting; I take it that Rome will still manage to beat the Aequi and the Volsci and become a regional power?
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Well the Aequi and the Volsci are far from their peak (around 440BCE) at this point, so the Romans have the advantage over them still. I hinted in the second update about Rome's future if you want to play a game of where's waldo. :cool:
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox


The Eternal Flame Dies Out
Chapter I: The Sons of Tarchon and Aeneas
Part IV: Reform
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Rome used their peace treaty with Veii to turn their full attention to their intermittent conflict with the Aequi and Volsci. Auxur and Labici fell back into Roman hands in 381(395 BCE) and 383 respectively. The Aequi were dealt a crushing defeat at Bolae in 385, and the following year a Volscian raiding party was caught outside Tusculum and destroyed. The success achieved by the Romans against their long time foes allowed for them to rapidly rebound from their losses during their third war with Veii.

The patricians, originally under siege by emboldened plebeian calls for reform (namely abolishing the consular tribunes and allowing plebeians to hold the consulship instead), were now able to use Rome's military victories to deflect these demands. Their grievances however did not go away, and the patricians would not be able to ignore demands for greater plebeian representation in the governing system forever.

In Veii, Velthur Hathisna was reluctant to relinquish his position as tyrant of the city. Emulating Dionysius I in Syracuse, he used a bodyguard of around 500 men he had built up during the siege, and resisted aristocratic attempts to force him to lay down his authority. By 382, he was firmly in power as tyrant of Veii.

This power was not entirely secure however, and he could not rely solely on force forever. Unlike his colleague in Syracuse, he worked to build popular support for his rule with the people. Over the next few years, he conducted a series of administrative reforms focused on winning the people over to him and increasing efficiency. The people stood to gain at the loss of the nobility.

Hathisna's first project was opening up the Veientine government to the ordinary citizens of Veii. This was mainly geared towards the hoplite class[1], for it was with them he wished to build a loyal support base. Mixing models of nearby Rome and Hellenic Athenai, he streamlined the government hierarchy. At the top of the hierarchy were the two eponymous archons acting as the chief civil magistrates, alongside himself acting as archon basileos. The two archons were elected every year from the aristocracy, the only concession made to them by Hathisna in this period.

Below them were the ten strategoi, each chosen by lot. They were headed by the polemarchos, at this time being held by Hathisna. Should the polemarchos not be present with the army, the strategoi rotated command on each day. This was almost an exact copy of the Athenian system, and, since the strategoi was chosen by lot rather than by voting, was a huge concession to the people. One can assume that this was done over the fervent objections of the aristocracy, and that may very well have been the intention of Hathisna when he instituted it.

The choice of ten strategoi was due to another administrative innovation of Hathisna-the division of Veii's territory into 10 tribes. This he likely borrowed from the Romans, whom our sources inform us had organized their state into 20 administrative tribes. There were 5 urban tribes and 5 rustic tribes, each divided based on geographic location. To be considered a citizen of Veii, now one had to register in their tribe. A strategos was selected from each of the tribes, and each year they gathered at Veii into their respective tribes to elect the two archons.

Aside from the strategoi and eponymous archons, Hathisna is credited with instituting other administrative positions (though how much of this was actually due to him and how much was already in place before or instituted later is up for debate). Two men were chosen by lot to manage the food supply and lower magistrates were elected by the tribes to act as the administrator as each tribe. A censor was to be appointed every 5 years from the members of the aristocracy by Hathisna himself. They were tasked with managing the registration of new citizens into the tribes and of taking a census of the population (and if necessary) the creation of new tribes.

The sources state these reforms took no more than a few years to institute, though it is more likely they were a gradual process as Hathisna solidified his control and felt the need to make changes (if indeed they were all of his creation). It is clear though that these reforms were targeted at weakening the aristocracy and strengthening his support with the people. Increased administrative efficiency appears to also have been a secondary concern, and may have been more a byproduct of the reforms than the reason for instituting them. One thing is certain-the reforms seem to have achieved their unstated goal of undermining the aristocracy, and the oligarchs seethed with resentment as they watched their monopoly on governance wash away.

[1] The equivalent of the middle class in some sense-they were somewhat wealthy, yet not the wealthiest.
 
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Oracle of Sobek 𓆋

Oracle of Sobek 𓆋

slydessertfox said:
Thanks! Rome is indeed going to have some tough competition.


Also can you guys see the image?
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Nope.

Just some unsolicited advice for the future: don't rely on the original websites to keep hosting the images. If you find an image you like, save it and reupload it to an image sharing site like imgur, and link to that. That way it can't randomly disappear from your TL unless you personally delete it from the host site.
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Yeah I'll try and do that more often. Especially since with the one month edit time limit, I couldn't go back and fix it if the site takes it down. Thanks for the advice.I'll fix the picture tomorrow since I'm on my phone right now.
 

Grouchio

Brennus is coming...

(And no you can't write off his arrival near Rome unless the different Siege of Veii somehow dissuades him)
 

Monopolist

Really interesting update. Velthur Hathisna seems to be the great Italian lawgiver, Veii's equivalent of Solon or Cleisthenes or Lycurgus. Although there appears to be some conflict with the reactionary oligarchs... quite a bit of action to happen in the near future.

If I could make a request though, could you put in parentheses what year it is in our chronology for at least the first date? Makes it easier for us math-challenged folks. :)
 
SlyDessertFox

SlyDessertFox

Monopolist said:
Really interesting update. Velthur Hathisna seems to be the great Italian lawgiver, Veii's equivalent of Solon or Cleisthenes or Lycurgus. Although there appears to be some conflict with the reactionary oligarchs... quite a bit of action to happen in the near future.
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Yeah, I kind of modeled him off of Servius Tullius.

If I could make a request though, could you put in parentheses what year it is in our chronology for at least the first date? Makes it easier for us math-challenged folks. :)
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Whoops. That indeed was my intention. Thanks for pointing that out.
 
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