The Crucible of Absolution (A post Battle of Berlin Germany)

[CalBear]

Do you honestly think they would've been able to achieve this? Stronger regimes have fallen for less. It seems asinine to talk about potential genocides when we have the very real crimes of communism. I didn't make an issue, you did. I just want to tell a story. Also Mao and Stalin knew that rapid industrialization would lead to mass death, they just didn't care.

I would point out that it is you who are making an issue of this. I responded to a member's report by asking if the Nazi propaganda was really necessary. At that point, my input was completed, the report cleared, and forgotten. everything that has enlarged since then is 100% your doing. No one defended the regimes of Stalin, Mao, or the Japanese Empire. It was your decision to bring them up and use them to imply God knows what, I suppose that I would be happier with Communist propaganda (which, as my 12 years of posting here demonstrates is hilarious).

You have chosen to continue to throw oil soaked bundles into a fire of your making. If this continues it will be because you have chosen to do so.

 

[Gudestein]

Ok... I'm out of this as it had become rather toxic. Sorry.

I’m out as well. Sorry. You does not Seem to sympathize with either ideology which is good, but you cant IMHO argue the case you do. And try not to follow this statement with a counter argument, but rather an update on the TL. It’ll be my last post on the TL

 

[fscott]

It might not do it alone, but a stressed Hitler Breaking down before the ardennes offensive goes ahead.
Slow deterioration of Hitler, less micromagement from then on. Then you could probably be with you desired preconditions at this time or have him commit suicide a little sooner.

PS. Be careful with the poster AND using numbers to justify an equality between Nazis, communist and maoists. Its really hard to find the same evil intent in communism despite the immensese scale of their disasterous regimes. Inhumane cynicism doesn’t quite get you as low as the Nazis.
PPS. I do agree the posters Seem on topic, but where Will it lead us?

When we're discussing leaders of a country who have killed a large amount of people do we ever look at what percentage of the people were killed versus the people in the country. Say the country has 200 million people and it kills 10 million people is it worse than a country that has 300 million people and kills 10 million people. I'm in no way of an apologist and evil is evil but I just wonder if anyone else looked at it that way actually I just thought about that reading this thread

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

When we're discussing leaders of a country who have killed a large amount of people do we ever look at what percentage of the people were killed versus the people in the country. Say the country has 200 million people and it kills 10 million people is it worse than a country that has 300 million people and kills 10 million people. I'm in no way of an apologist and evil is evil but I just wonder if anyone else looked at it that way actually I just thought about that reading this thread

I believe there is some validity to that idea, but I would like to stay off this topic. I already lost two viewers and I got out of control more than I like to admit. I thought about posting a statement saying that this story is apolitical and that I didn't want any political arguments but I decided not to, big mistake on my part. I certainly learned my lesson

 

[Sceonn]

Ok, all tyrannies were regardless of whatever color they dress themselves in were horrible, Mongols included. @Lord_Vespasian, sorry but I feel like you're coming at this too needlessly confrontational.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Ok, all tyrannies were regardless of whatever color they dress themselves in were horrible, Mongols included. @Lord_Vespasian, sorry but I feel like you're coming at this too needlessly confrontational.

I agree, all tyrannies are terrible. And yes, I apologize for my rather aggressive reaction, had a bad day today(not saying that is an excuse). I just wanna get past it and work on the 4th chapter. I wanna reiterate this to avoid any problems, I do not support Nazi Germany or Nazism in any capacity, it is a violent, vehement ideology

 

[HIM Dogson]

It's a recorded fact that the Soviets killed approximately 30 million civilians in their own territory, not to mention the massive rape and murder the occupational forces inflicted on civilians in Europe. The Holodomor alone, which is just one example of Soviet brutality, killed 12 to 15 million people. The Japanese killed and raped millions of Chinese people, committed war crimes against Allied troops in South East Asia and did barbarous experimentation on POWs. You're not gonna win this one

Also I bet you wouldn't raise a peep over me displaying Maoist propaganda posters even though they killed about 60 million civilians, more than anyone else, through purges, forced relocation and the process of rapid industrialization.

View attachment 351820

Support for Stalinism and Maoism is an Instaban, so I'd imagine that posting propaganda posters form them and endorsing the message would be actionable.

 

[Tovarich]

It's a recorded fact that the Soviets killed approximately 30 million civilians in their own territory, not to mention the massive rape and murder the occupational forces inflicted on civilians in Europe. The Holodomor alone, which is just one example of Soviet brutality, killed 12 to 15 million people. The Japanese killed and raped millions of Chinese people, committed war crimes against Allied troops in South East Asia and did barbarous experimentation on POWs. You're not gonna win this one

Also I bet you wouldn't raise a peep over me displaying Maoist propaganda posters even though they killed about 60 million civilians, more than anyone else, through purges, forced relocation and the process of rapid industrialization.

View attachment 351820

As a point of order, being a declared Maoist (as opposed to non-specific 'Communist') would get a member instabanned as quickly as being a declared Nazi.

That said, I don't see anything wrong in the inclusion of posters you've made; pictures of historical propaganda art are every bit as valid as photos of tools of death & destruction (bombers, U-boats, etc) that often accompany wartime TLs & nobody bats an eyelid, and I personally, as a reader, find them very interesting indeed.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

That said, I don't see anything wrong in the inclusion of posters you've made; pictures of historical propaganda art are every bit as valid as photos of tools of death & destruction (bombers, U-boats, etc) that often accompany wartime TLs & nobody bats an eyelid, and I personally, as a reader, find them very interesting indeed.

Thank you, I should have a chapter out tomorrow

 

[Sam R.]

Keep up with the work on the particular collapse of the third reich. You might want to read about Soviet actions in restricting mass rape in urban areas after the three days law of war for "rape" in conquering a non surrendering fortress. Disciplinary war rape in rural areas is far less inspiring in terms of law of war.

Yet at the same time the claims of facticity around death tolls attributable to the actually existing socialist states are ludicrous and ahistoriographical. Moreover, the holodomor is currently acknowledged as a nationalist narrative given that we have the actual minutes of the politbureau where centralised famine relief was attempted (and bound to fail given the destruction of rural trade networks).

I, for one, anticipate the very credible rejection of Speers offers by the allies and a changed occupation system as a result.

Also, iirc, avowed mlms post here, within historiographical limits, and don't attempt denialism.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Also, iirc, avowed mlms post here, within historiographical limits, and don't attempt denialism.

I'm not denying anything. As for the topic of the Holocaust, it simply doesn't happen in this TL, such a thing would be a massive deal breaker for the Allies and having it happen and them accepting it is too ridiculous for my liking. Also what is an mlm post? I assume it doesn't relate to Multi-Level Marketing?

 

[Sceonn]

I'm not denying anything. As for the topic of the Holocaust, it simply doesn't happen in this TL, such a thing would be a massive deal breaker for the Allies and having it happen and them accepting it is too ridiculous for my liking. Also what is an mlm post? I assume it doesn't relate to Multi-Level Marketing?

Perhaps you should have Calbear move this to ABS then? because no Holocaust requires a farther back POD.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Perhaps you should have Calbear move this to ABS then? because no Holocaust requires a farther back POD.

Why? ASB means scenarios so ridiculous that they require fantastical things to make them happen. What is so ASB about the Holocaust not happening? I didn't say they weren't anti-semetic or that war crimes weren't committed, just that an effort on the level of a Holocaust was never attempted because of other reasons, practicality, the war postponing it, whatever the reason, it doesn't happen. Sealion is far more ASB than that and they are allowed here. Hell, real history is more ridiculous at times

 

[Sam R.]

I'm not denying anything. As for the topic of the Holocaust, it simply doesn't happen in this TL, such a thing would be a massive deal breaker for the Allies and having it happen and them accepting it is too ridiculous for my liking. Also what is an mlm post? I assume it doesn't relate to Multi-Level Marketing?

I didn't suggest you were a denialist. I was talking about hypothetical conduct by Marxist Leninist Maoists.

However, to avert the holocaust you need a pod prior to Barbarossa.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Well the best way to convey that would be not to mention it. it'd be weird for people worrying about imminent destruction to talk about something they never did. I guess I could have Himmler say, "I knew those Jewish swine would be our downfall, Hitler should've allowed me to deal with them the way I wanted back in 33'",?

 

[Admiral Halsey]

I'm not denying anything. As for the topic of the Holocaust, it simply doesn't happen in this TL, such a thing would be a massive deal breaker for the Allies and having it happen and them accepting it is too ridiculous for my liking. Also what is an mlm post? I assume it doesn't relate to Multi-Level Marketing?

Ahh so these are Notzis then.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Ahh so these are Notzis then.

No, these my friend, are..

THOTZIS

 

[Michele]

That's reality, this is an alternative history.

There's reality and there's fiction.
Then within fiction there is realistic fiction, and the opposite.
This distinction is irrelevant if one writes about Alice in Wonderland the Sequel, naturally. It is relevant, IMHO, if one writes fiction based on history.

 

[EMTSATX]

I like your writing either way, it's enjoyable to read. I hope you continue the story. Because really I come here to read stories I like.

I really have no comment on the politics of the past couple of pages. Until you said something, I assumed that the Holocaust had happened. I wondered how you were going to get past that as the Allies had overrun them. Arguments aside please continue.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

There's reality and there's fiction.
Then within fiction there is realistic fiction, and the opposite.
This distinction is irrelevant if one writes about Alice in Wonderland the Sequel, naturally. It is relevant, IMHO, if one writes fiction based on history.

I believe there are degrees of realism, Man in the High Castle is far less realistic than Kaiserreich, but Kaiserreich is less realistic than a story about the Ardennes offensive being a failure. I would class my story as being above High Castle but below KR in terms of realism