The Crucible of Absolution (A post Battle of Berlin Germany)

[nbcman]

Why? Literally nothing is changed until Hitler's death. The POD, well there are a few minor ones that the POD in Flensburg aren't reliant upon, is them deciding to not surrender and instead work with the Allies and the decision to choose Speer, which I honestly think is one of the most ridiculous things, second only to them deciding to continue fighting. Thank you by the way

There is one major thing that has changed in the first post dated 7 May 1945.

The Allies are at the Rhine and the Soviets have captured Berlin.

The Allies crossed the Rhine IOTL on 22 March 1945. The Allied front line was over a hundred miles to the east of the Rhine. Assuming you are not making changes prior to the 7th, you may want to consider changing the river to the Elbe?

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

The Allies crossed the Rhine IOTL on 22 March 1945. The Allied front line was over a hundred miles to the east of the Rhine. Assuming you are not making changes prior to the 7th, you may want to consider changing the river to the Elbe?

Good point, i will change it to the Elbe

 

[CalBear]

I'm not a Nazi, would you have a problem with displaying Soviet or Imperial Japanese posters? I bet not despite them causing more death destruction. I'm not promoting any ideology, even if I was, I'm not breaking any rules. I'm not inciting hate or trying to start a political discussion of any kind. This is just me writing a story I've wanted to write about for a week.

The posters add a little flair which I think compliments the series. It isn't just random posters, all of them are either ambiguous in the context of who they are fighting or are specifically targeted against the Soviets, which ties into the theme.

Never said you were a Nazi.

I do find it sort of interesting that you somehow, inexplicably, find the Soviets and Japanese caused more death and destruction than the 3rd Reich..

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

I do find it sort of interesting that you somehow, inexplicably, find the Soviets and Japanese caused more death and destruction than the 3rd Reich..

It's a recorded fact that the Soviets killed approximately 30 million civilians in their own territory, not to mention the massive rape and murder the occupational forces inflicted on civilians in Europe. The Holodomor alone, which is just one example of Soviet brutality, killed 12 to 15 million people. The Japanese killed and raped millions of Chinese people, committed war crimes against Allied troops in South East Asia and did barbarous experimentation on POWs. You're not gonna win this one

Also I bet you wouldn't raise a peep over me displaying Maoist propaganda posters even though they killed about 60 million civilians, more than anyone else, through purges, forced relocation and the process of rapid industrialization.

 

[Zagan]

I do find it sort of interesting that you somehow, inexplicably, find the Soviets and Japanese caused more death and destruction than the 3rd Reich..

I am not sure about the Japanese but the Soviet Union did kill at least twice if not thrice as many people as Nazi Germany. Granted, they had a longer time span in which to do the killing.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Granted, they had a longer time span in which to do the killing.

Most of the killing was done under Stalin and little bit after him although fear and the gulags remained for some time. So the more time doesn't really apply

 

[nbcman]

Good point, i will change it to the Elbe

Regardless , May 7th is too late as the Allies demanded a total surrender of German forces to both the Allies and Soviets. IOTL it was agreed to just after midnight on the 7th.

Jodl and Keitel surrender all German armed forces unconditionally: Thirty minutes after the fall of "Festung Breslau" (Fortress Breslau), General Alfred Jodl arrived in Reims and, following Dönitz's instructions, offered to surrender all forces fighting the Western Allies. This was exactly the same negotiating position that von Friedeburg had initially made to Montgomery, and like Montgomery the Supreme Allied Commander, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, threatened to break off all negotiations unless the Germans agreed to a complete unconditional surrender to all the Allies on all fronts.[24] Eisenhower explicitly told Jodl that he would order western lines closed to German soldiers, thus forcing them to surrender to the Soviets.[24] Jodl sent a signal to Dönitz, who was in Flensburg, informing him of Eisenhower's declaration. Shortly after midnight, Dönitz, accepting the inevitable, sent a signal to Jodl authorizing the complete and total surrender of all German forces.[22][24]

At 02:41 on the morning of 7 May, at SHAEF headquarters in Reims, France, the Chief-of-Staff of the German Armed Forces High Command, General Alfred Jodl, signed an unconditional surrender documents for all German forces to the Allies; committing representatives of the German High Command to attend a definitive signing ceremony in Berlin. General Franz Böhme announced the unconditional surrender of German troops in Norway on 7 May. It included the phrase "All forces under German control to cease active operations at 2301 hours Central European Time on May 8, 1945."[18][25] The next day, Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel and other German OKW representatives travelled to Berlin, and shortly before midnight signed an amended and definitive document of unconditional surrender, explicitly surrendering to all the Allied forces in the presence of Marshal Georgi Zhukov and representatives of SHAEF.[26] The signing ceremony took place in a former German Army Engineering School in the Berlin district of Karlshorst; it now houses the German-Russian Museum Berlin-Karlshorst.

Even without Doenitz, the Germans would be forced to surrender to both the Allies and the Soviets or the Allies and Soviets would continue fighting the Germans. BTW - this wiki page lists the end of the war in Europe. Note how there was virtually nothing available to get to the German-Soviet front in Germany unless the Allies were going to let the miscellaneous garrison troops pass through their lines to get there to be crushed by the Soviet forces.
EDIT: Most crucially, Speer was already behind Allied lines by the 9th of May. How would he get from Hamburg which fell to British forces on the 3rd of May to Flensberg without the Allies letting him pass?

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

I see, this is very problematic. Do you have any suggestion on the latest possible divergence to make it possible. I'm not asking for extremely likely, just as long as it's not ASB. The later the POD the better. Maybe have the Eastern front be less bloody for the Germans and more bloody for the Soviets allowing for the Germans to maintain a higher number of troops?

 

[Gudestein]

I see, this is very problematic. Do you have any suggestion on the latest possible divergence to make it possible. I'm not asking for extremely likely, just as long as it's not ASB. The later the POD the better. Maybe have the Eastern front be less bloody for the Germans and more bloody for the Soviets allowing for the Germans to maintain a higher number of troops?

It might not do it alone, but a stressed Hitler Breaking down before the ardennes offensive goes ahead.
Slow deterioration of Hitler, less micromagement from then on. Then you could probably be with you desired preconditions at this time or have him commit suicide a little sooner.

PS. Be careful with the poster AND using numbers to justify an equality between Nazis, communist and maoists. Its really hard to find the same evil intent in communism despite the immensese scale of their disasterous regimes. Inhumane cynicism doesn’t quite get you as low as the Nazis.
PPS. I do agree the posters Seem on topic, but where Will it lead us?

 

[CalBear]

It's a recorded fact that the Soviets killed approximately 30 million civilians in their own territory, not to mention the massive rape and murder the occupational forces inflicted on civilians in Europe. The Holodomor alone, which is just one example of Soviet brutality, killed 12 to 15 million people. The Japanese killed and raped millions of Chinese people, committed war crimes against Allied troops in South East Asia and did barbarous experimentation on POWs. You're not gonna win this one

Also I bet you wouldn't raise a peep over me displaying Maoist propaganda posters even though they killed about 60 million civilians, more than anyone else, through purges, forced relocation and the process of rapid industrialization.

View attachment 351820

You really, really want to do this?

I mean, really?

I am well aware of the horrors visited upon the world by the Japanese Empire, the Soviet Union, and Chinese Communist Party under Mao. I am also extremely conversant with the pure evil that was the 3rd Reich.

Right now you have entered into "doth protest too much" territory, but please, do continue with your minimization of the Reich.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

It might not do it alone, but a stressed Hitler Breaking down before the ardennes offensive goes ahead.
Slow deterioration of Hitler, less micromanagement from then on. Then you could probably be with you desired preconditions at this time or have him commit suicide a little sooner

Good idea, I'd say Hitler having severe neurological problems, due to gas attacks from WWI, around 1941 leads to Speer, Himmler and the generals grabbing more power with Goebbels acting as the last unfiltered spokesman for Hitler. They gang up on Göring reducing his power, maybe even replacing him as head of the Luftwaffe. By 1945, things have been progressing better than our timeline however Hitler still manages to mess up on Stalingrad and the placement of the reserve panzer divisions in France so the Nazis still get pushed back and lose Berlin and France in '45. Of course, the more efficient German industry and army, with generals being able to take actions that Hitler might not like and a fully mobilized economy by '42 at the latest, means they have stopped the Allies at the Maginot and the Ardennes and have a more capable Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht, with Berlin being lost due to Hitler's stubbornness on how to defend "his city". Hitler still demands there will be no capitulation and since many generals didn't like it they go along with it, but due to his weakened power allows Himmler to make more headway however his status as head of the SS prevents him from breaking through.

Be careful with the poster AND using numbers to justify an equality between Nazis, communist and maoists. Its really hard to find the same evil intent in communism despite the immensese scale of their disasterous regimes. Inhumane cynicism doesn’t quite get you as low as the Nazis.

I will not be careful, I am breaking no rules. The deaths of those people are horrible no matter who does it. Does it matter why they starved and killed innocents? The Communists killed more. If you want to base who's the worse on why they did it, which seems very superficial, I consider Pol Pot the worst as he forced men, women and children to work themselves to death and starve while they labor to produce food that is supposedly for their own benefit. No other atrocity in human history has more cruelty, irony and cynicism. Communism is the #1 worst ideology in human history.

 

[CalBear]

I am not sure about the Japanese but the Soviet Union did kill at least twice if not thrice as many people as Nazi Germany. Granted, they had a longer time span in which to do the killing.

There is no such thing as "lesser" genocide.

That being stated, there is also no real question that the 3rd Reich was handily the most evil regime in at least the last 500 years. The reich managed to do all the evil it did long before existing & evolving plans had been implemented. Mao, who one hopes burns in the hottest pit of Hell, was fully in charge when the 60+ million victims of the Great Leap Forward died through basic neglect. The Soviet Union, including during its various genocides in Ukraine, Crimea, and the Caucasus, was in full control of the regions it had designs on. The Reich was barely getting started.

Had the Reich won on the Continent the slaughter would have been beyond anything ever seen. The Nazis planned to liquidate, generally through force labor under starvation conditions, 85% of the population of Poland, EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT of the total population, some 20 MILLION civilians, leaving the remainder alive as illiterate chattal slaves. That was just Poland. The overall plans were never finalized due to shifting condition, but the goals remained very consistent. Eliminate 75% of the overall Slavic population OF THE PLANET, leaving the rest as slaves. Eliminate, totally, the Jewish and Roma populations of Europe. Had the Reich succeeded the butcher's bill would have approached, if not surpassed, 100 million human being. These people would not have died from neglect or indifference. They would have been liquidated deliberately, in the most brutal manners available based on their "race". The Reich wasn't an evil regime. The Reich WAS evil.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

You really, really want to do this?

I mean, really?

I am well aware of the horrors visited upon the world by the Japanese Empire, the Soviet Union, and Chinese Communist Party under Mao. I am also extremely conversant with the pure evil that was the 3rd Reich.

Right now you have entered into "doth protest too much" territory, but please, do continue with your minimization of the Reich.

I am not minimizing the fact that the Third Reich started WWII. What does, "doth protest too much territory" mean? Defending myself? What rules have I or am I breaking? Am I pushing violent rhetoric against any one? Am I saying this is what should've happened?

 

[Zagan]

Communism is the #1 worst ideology in human history.

Oh... I do hate Communism with a passion but that is a little too much even for me.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

There is no such thing as "lesser" genocide.

That being stated, there is also no real question that the 3rd Reich was handily the most evil regime in at least the last 500 years. The reich managed to do all the evil it did long before existing & evolving plans had been implemented. Mao, who one hopes burns in the hottest pit of Hell, was fully in charge when the 60+ million victims of the Great Leap Forward died through basic neglect. The Soviet Union, including during its various genocides in Ukraine, Crimea, and the Caucasus, was in full control of the regions it had designs on. The Reich was barely getting started.

Had the Reich won on the Continent the slaughter would have been beyond anything ever seen. The Nazis planned to liquidate, generally through force labor under starvation conditions, 85% of the population of Poland, EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT of the total population, some 20 MILLION civilians, leaving the remainder alive as illiterate chattal slaves. That was just Poland. The overall plans were never finalized due to shifting condition, but the goals remained very consistent. Eliminate 75% of the overall Slavic population OF THE PLANET, leaving the rest as slaves. Eliminate, totally, the Jewish and Roma populations of Europe. Had the Reich succeeded the butcher's bill would have approached, if not surpassed, 100 million human being. These people would not have died from neglect or indifference. They would have been liquidated deliberately, in the most brutal manners available based on their "race". The Reich wasn't an evil regime. The Reich WAS evil.

Do you honestly think they would've been able to achieve this? Stronger regimes have fallen for less. It seems asinine to talk about potential genocides when we have the very real crimes of communism. I didn't make an issue, you did. I just want to tell a story. Also Mao and Stalin knew that rapid industrialization would lead to mass death, they just didn't care.

 

[Gudestein]

Good idea, I'd say Hitler having severe neurological problems, due to gas attacks from WWI, around 1941 leads to Speer, Himmler and the generals grabbing more power with Goebbels acting as the last unfiltered spokesman for Hitler. They gang up on Göring reducing his power, maybe even replacing him as head of the Luftwaffe. By 1945, things have been progressing better than our timeline however Hitler still manages to mess up on Stalingrad and the placement of the reserve panzer divisions in France so the Nazis still get pushed back and lose Berlin and France in '45. Of course, the more efficient German industry and army, with generals being able to take actions that Hitler might not like and a fully mobilized economy by '42 at the latest, means they have stopped the Allies at the Maginot and the Ardennes and have a more capable Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht, with Berlin being lost due to Hitler's stubbornness on how to defend "his city". Hitler still demands there will be no capitulation and since many generals didn't like it they go along with it, but due to his weakened power allows Himmler to make more headway however his status as head of the SS prevents him from breaking through.



I will not be careful, I am breaking no rules. The deaths of those people are horrible no matter who does it. Does it matter why they starved and killed innocents? The Communists killed more. If you want to base who's the worse on why they did it, which seems very superficial, I consider Pol Pot the worst as he forced men, women and children to work themselves to death and starve while they labor to produce food that is supposedly for their own benefit. No other atrocity in human history has more cruelty, irony and cynicism. Communism is the #1 worst ideology in human history.

About the pod, I Think the TL Can continue as you started put with a POD as late as 1944, but your call.

Regarding the relative comparison of Hitlers Germany I think the intent does make a difference.
No matter that communist regimes totalled more excess mortality over 6-70 years, cruelty, irony and cynicism” still doesn’t quite get you to Hitlers Nazism.
Why do you need to intermix this point with your TL anyways? The posters fit the topic so just stay clear of this.Hope you take the advice.

PS. Just saw your last post. Hope the advice was not to late.
I dont Think Anyone doubts the communist managed to cause more harm over a longer timeframe, but the intent does matter. And then consider if the communist had not defeated the Nazis...you are wrong IMHO, but it doesn’t matter. There is no reason for you to continue any further. All that is needed is that the posters are on topic.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Oh... I do hate Communism with a passion but that is a little too much even for me.

What other ideology could beat it? 100 million dead in less then a century, most through very painful and avoidable means, suppression of religion, culture, art and expression, and best of all, all in the name of the workers.

 

[Zagan]

Ok... I'm out of this as it had become rather toxic. Sorry.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

About the pod, I Think the TL Can continue as you started put with a POD as late as 1944, but your call.

Regarding the relative comparison of Hitlers Germany I think the intent does make a difference.
No matter that communist regimes totalled more excess mortality over 6-70 years, cruelty, irony and cynicism” still doesn’t quite get you to Hitlers Nazism.
Why do you need to intermix this point with your TL anyways? The posters fit the topic so just stay clear of this.Hope you take the advice.

Ok, I'll make the POD in the 1940s

In regards to the posters, I would love to, this whole thing got side railed over nothing. In regards to whether intent matters or not, when both people being killed, starved and tortured suffer the same pain, no I don't think intention matters. It didn't matter to those who suffered, at that point what matters most is who hurt more innocents, and that undoubtedly goes to the communists. Hopefully he'll leave it alone, I don't support the Reich, in fact, I thin those who unironically like Hitler are retarded.

 

[Lord_Vespasian]

Ok... I'm out of this as it had become rather toxic. Sorry.

I'm sorry to hear that, have a good day