The Chinese Fleet of the Ming Dynasty

Can you provide me with something to show me how I'm wrong? I'm not intentionally going to lie to people here. I'm going off of what I actually believe from my understanding of the Chinese economy. Now, what I study is largely archaic, being not from the Qing or even largely from the Ming, but from what I understand the essence is relatively similar. The Confucian elite tended to stay out of commerce and frowned upon blatant profit seeking. Merchants did tend to accumulate inside of the cities, but most people in the cities were not what could be called independent workers. Most of the populous were Artisans, Soldiers, and Officials alongside their families. The Artisans were almost invariably employed by the officials. The Soldiers were also amongst their pay. The farmers were relatively secure on their plots of land, but there was no mistaking the fact that it was understood that they didn't privately own it as the land was the government's land. [The Emperor of China technically, nominally, owned everything inside of China.] Much of the produce would be taken by government officials for later use. Soldiers were invariably employed by the state and the nobility. Those that weren't weren't called soldiers at all, but bandits or rebels. Merchants, the only self employed of the major people dwelling inside of the cities, made up only a tiny fraction of the population. This is compounded by state run monopolies on salt, mining, and wine-making.

What is wrong with this statement? What is misinformed, slightly correct, misleading, or completely fallacious? I'm eager to learn more than I'm eager to talk about and correct, but in order to correct something I need to be sure that what I'm saying is accurate and therefore I have all the greater drive to learn as much as I can. :p

You fundamentally misunderstand the role of the Chinese state's involvement in the economy. While certain artisans were under contract from the state and worked only for the state in state owned industries, others simply paid taxes in goods (or as "tribute" to the Imperial Court). Using your logic, you could make the argument that modern taxpayers work for their governments because 15-50% of of their income goes to the government.

Also, just because they said they scorned commerce for profit didn't stop many Confucian bureaucrats from engaging in commerce for (massive) profit. An ideal is just that.

This is a good primer, it addresses the Qing Dynasty, but many of its points are true for earlier dynasties as well: http://www.learn.columbia.edu/nanxuntu/html/economy/

Also: http://www.zhangzhiyong.cn/english/gentry.htm (for the Song Dynasty)

What exactly is the reality of the situation?

For most of its history, Europe was very, very poor relative to China and India. The Chinese had little incentive to colonize places seeing as how they were wealthiest country in the world. They were risk averse because chances are, any colonial effort is going to lose money at the outset with no guarantee of success. There's simply no reason to engage in colonialism when your already extant processes have made you absurdly wealthy to the point where you can afford to (and had to) implement a fiat currency, something that didn't entirely catch on in the Western Hemisphere until the 19th Century (hence the invention of paper money, there simply wasn't enough bullion in circulation to fully monetize the Chinese economy).

In short, there was simply no need for a colonial empire when the rest of the world was scrambling to exploit the resources of the New World to pay for goods you make.
 
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For most of its history, Europe was very, very poor relative to China and India. The Chinese had little incentive to colonize places seeing as how they were wealthiest country in the world. They were risk averse because chances are, any colonial effort is going to lose money at the outset with no guarantee of success. There's simply no reason to engage in colonialism when your already extant processes have made you absurdly wealthy to the point where you can afford to (and had to) implement a fiat currency, something that didn't entirely catch on in the Western Hemisphere until the 19th Century (hence the invention of paper money, there simply wasn't enough bullion in circulation to fully monetize the Chinese economy).

In short, there was simply no need for a colonial empire when the rest of the world was scrambling to exploit the resources of the New World to pay for goods you make.

That sounds like a general dampener on trade as well. I mean, obviously some trade is fine. But you're not going to see people daring new ventures in this atmosphere nearly as enthusiastically as in Europe, because in Europe gambles are seen as likely TO pay off instead of just as unnecessary risks due to entirely different circumstances. No equivalent to say, North Atlantic exploration.

What about the cities and towns? Or is this covered by your answer to scholar?
 
That sounds like a general dampener on trade as well. I mean, obviously some trade is fine. But you're not going to see people daring new ventures in this atmosphere nearly as enthusiastically as in Europe, because in Europe gambles are seen as likely TO pay off instead of just as unnecessary risks due to entirely different circumstances. No equivalent to say, North Atlantic exploration.

What about the cities and towns? Or is this covered by your answer to scholar?

Answer is covered in my answer to scholar.

As for dampening trade, pretty much. Besides, much more profitable and certain to trade with India, Mogadishu and Egypt instead of chasing a phantom in some place on the wrong side of the world.
 
There's a very good reason for that. Wakou Trade, and Wakou Piracy (mostly Piracy), tends to stick around where the people are, and where the profits are. They are also bound by necessary limited supplies so that they can stuff their boats with "earnings". The highest they would have considered going was above Hokkaido for some rather miniscule and insignificant trade. The idea that they would want to travel hundreds, or even thousands, of miles through the barren, bitter, ice filled journey across the Russian Far East, through the Berring Straits, and down into Alaska and the Pacific Northwest is almost completely absurd. There's no sane drive.

When you want a dozen apples, you go to the nearby mart and purchase a dozen fresh apples. You don't walk on foot, in the winter, across the entire continent, without staying inside a hotel or anything, to buy one shriveled old apple that rots away to nothing by the time you walk all the way back. If you haven't died already or got seriously ill, you would be damn near emaciated and would vow never to go there again.
The Wakou could also explore the Pacific Islands and find the Americas..
 

scholar

Banned
You fundamentally misunderstand the role of the Chinese state's involvement in the economy. While certain artisans were under contract from the state and worked only for the state in state owned industries, others simply paid taxes in goods (or as "tribute" to the Imperial Court). Using your logic, you could make the argument that modern taxpayers work for their governments because 15-50% of of their income goes to the government.

Also, just because they said they scorned commerce for profit didn't stop many Confucian bureaucrats from engaging in commerce for (massive) profit. An ideal is just that.

This is a good primer, it addresses the Qing Dynasty, but many of its points are true for earlier dynasties as well: http://www.learn.columbia.edu/nanxuntu/html/economy/

Also: http://www.zhangzhiyong.cn/english/gentry.htm (for the Song Dynasty)
What Artisans did not work for the government, state-run monopolies, government officials, or their families? I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the vast majority of Artisans worked for the government or the nobility. This is how I felt justified in saying what I did. Farmers were on large plots of land that they didn't technically own or even administer, rather various government officials and gentry administered the lands. This does not give off the impression of independent labor on behalf of the farmers.

I'm aware of that too, I believe I referenced officials having cousins or relatives that were incredibly wealthy merchants and that the two had a relationship in an effort to separate the Mercantile class into different sections to dispel the notion that the Merchant Class fit into the notion of the middle class. However, just because many abused their office, which was particularly common in times of corruption [and corruption was almost universal in the later Qing], does not mean that they did not share a repugnance for the Merchant class. Hypocrisy is always a factor in dealing with human affairs and Ethic.

I was aware of most of the stuff in that article, though I have to say it was a very interesting read. I wasn't aware that farmers paid their taxes in actual silver or copper during the Ming Dynasty, as I thought it was more of a large portion of their crops for storage in various granaries for government use.Also the bank appeared later in chinese history than I thought it would have. I figured that there were proto-banks during the age of the Caliphate and through some cultural and mercantile trade along the various sea roads some may have propped up in the major cities in relationship to the Muslims through their communities expansion in growth after the Tang to the Qing. I was also under the impression that under the Mongol Yuan that different practices of commerce, among them banking, would have been at least tried. The fact that it came as late as the 18th century was a surprise. Perhaps this was a reaction to western commercial practice?

The lack of hereditary offices inside the Qing was also a bit surprising for me, as I had assumed the specter of this practice would have continued beyond just generals and soldiers and continued until the late 19th, early 20th, century. A couple papers that I read stated that this specter was present inside of the Republic of China in its early days, how does this correlate with the Qing? Not that it was enforced, but that the cultural practice continued with very little variation even until the cultural revolution. I also wasn't aware of the theory that Canton becoming the only port was a mutual decision, it appeared more so to be a reactionary measure by the Qing government instead of one with mutual cooperation.

The Song Dynasty primer was about as much as I expected, but I was surprised that the government had withdrawn much of its funding from schools. Further, I would have assumed that the gentry's support for the schools would have been more exclusive towards the children of the gentry rather than an inclusive cooperative effort amongst the lower classes. That was, by far, the most surprising. Do you know if the Tang or the Ming had similar practices both in regards to the schools the the inclusive cooperative effort inside the community for the schools rather than just the gentry supporting educative efforts for others within the gentry? Also, I was aware that merchants were the only other class in China that could afford the rigorous practices in education for the exams, but I remain a bit in the dark about how many of them were made scholar-officials inside the entirety of the public offices? I had assumed that it was always small in proportion to the gentry.

Further, was I incorrect in saying that the Five Relationships and the Four Classes played a particularly strong role in Chinese society and that Confucianism had a profound effect upon the Chinese culture almost to the point that Confucianism was an inseparable part of the Chinese culture?
 

Faeelin

Banned
What Artisans did not work for the government, state-run monopolies, government officials, or their families? I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the vast majority of Artisans worked for the government or the nobility. This is how I felt justified in saying what I did. Farmers were on large plots of land that they didn't technically own or even administer, rather various government officials and gentry administered the lands. This does not give off the impression of independent labor on behalf of the farmers.

What on earth are you reading to make this how you perceived the Chinese economy to work?

The Confusions of Pleasure: Commerce and Culture in Ming China is a good starter book for how the Ming economy actually worked.
 

scholar

Banned
What the fuck are you going on about? Seriously. By the way, I'm dead serious. How can you be so willfully ignorant about China and yet still try to pass yourself off as even remotely knowledgeable?
Because I take pride in knowing what I know. If what I know is wrong I endeavor to fix it. I'm not willfully ignorant about China, nor anything of the sort. I may not know as much about the economy of the cities as I thought I did, far less in fact, so I'm trying to reconcile what I knew with what I didn't know. The Banks, for instance, was something I didn't know about. I would have thought that the institution would have evolved earlier if not with the Tang, than with the Yuan. I wasn't aware that the Song withdrew backing of schools, nor was I aware that the Gentry supported such schools for the community. I had thought that the Song was supportive of schools and I thought the gentry were more exclusive in regards to education.

Those are all the things I was wrong about, and all the things I was genuinely interested in learning more about. So I brought them up, and I posted them. I realized that we weren't getting off on the right foot so I tried to be amiable and further the discussion based on the materials you posted.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I guess I'll just leave that up to you.
 
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