The Capitol of Grace: Havre de Grace site of Washington DC

[Malta]

The 1789 vote for the future Capitol of the United States was decided by one vote, between Havre de Grace on the Susquehanna river and a site on the Potomac river. The vote divided the leaders, saying one or the other would represent the nation's future expansions to the west.

However, what if Havre de Grace would have been selected? If a major city had developed on the mouth of the Susquehanna river?

 

[FleetMac]

Before anybody puts forward an objection based on whether Southron politicians would oppose having D.C. at Havre de Grace, keep in mind that at that time Maryland was seen as "Southron enough" for their sensibilities (it WAS a slave state AND south of the Mason-Dixon Line), and HdG would still be enclosed within said state.

EDIT: Leaving aside my enjoyment of a capital anywhere besides the Potomac, might it be more easily reached if/when some canals are built through Pennsylvania and upstate NY?

 

[Skallagrim]

The thing is, DC didn't end up being that big a gateway for the nation's future expansions to the west, now did it?

I'm not entirely sure, but it would certainly appear that an 'up the Susquehanna, overland, then down the Ohio' route made a more sense when it comes to trekking west than the 'up the Potomac, overland, then down the Ohio' route. It appears that it was easier to cross the mountains along the former route, and for this reason, it appears to have been more commonly used by people heading west. (On the other hand, on a map at least, the Potomac-Youghiogheny-Ohio route appears very sensible, because the distance between the source of the Potomac and the source of the Youghiogheny is so negligable. I'm not sure how sensible it was in practice, though. Maybe those rivers aren't actually useful in any way, that close to their sources?)

Assuming that the 'up the Susquehanna, overland, then down the Ohio' route is indeed the best option, then a capitol on the Susquehanna actually has a far better shot at becoming a gateway for the nation's future expansions to the west. It would objectively be the better location.

 

[Malta]

The thing is, DC didn't end up being that big a gateway for the nation's future expansions to the west, now did it?

I'm not entirely sure, but it would certainly appear that an 'up the Susquehanna, overland, then down the Ohio' route made a more sense when it comes to trekking west than the 'up the Potomac, overland, then down the Ohio' route. It appears that it was easier to cross the mountains along the former route, and for this reason, it appears to have been more commonly used by people heading west. (On the other hand, on a map at least, the Potomac-Youghiogheny-Ohio route appears very sensible, because the distance between the source of the Potomac and the source of the Youghiogheny is so negligable. I'm not sure how sensible it was in practice, though. Maybe those rivers aren't actually useful in any way, that close to their sources?)

Assuming that the 'up the Susquehanna, overland, then down the Ohio' route is indeed the best option, then a capitol on the Susquehanna actually has a far better shot at becoming a gateway for the nation's future expansions to the west. It would objectively be the better location.

It made sense enough for it to almost make it. Again, the issue was decided by a tiebreaker vote (A Pennsylvanian no less.). OTL Potomac didn't turn out to be such a gateway as it did but at the time either location made enough sense to the Congressmen.

 

[Wildcard F. Kennedy]

As I live just 15 minutes south of Havre de Grace, this certianly would of been very interesting. It would for sure look a whole lot different than it does today.

 

[FleetMac]

Funny how there's another thread going on that posits a capital located in another OTL contender location, Columbia PA

Personally I like the idea of the lower-most Susquehanna becoming a river-following "government metro" from Columbia to Havre de Grace. That way you could have the capital at one end, and whatever takes NoVa's place on the other!

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

I vote for consolidating the threads!

The lack of a major city on the Susquehanna is an interesting anomaly. It would have been a good site for DC Comics Gotham-Metropolis twin cities.

Weirdly, I don't think DC being north of Baltimore instead of south of Baltimore changes all that much, except for the look and feel of the federal city itself. The Civil War, though this is an event very easy to butterfly away, plays out differently though the outcome is likely still the same.

 

[Fearless Leader]

I'd also wager that it would be more difficult in TTL for the British to burn down the American Capital in the War of 1812 (assuming no butterflies of course!) Similarly, it will be much more difficult for the capital to be cut off from the rest of the country during the Civil War.

Though it's still located in a "Southern State" I'd imagine that an American capital on the Susquehanna would be much more "Northern" feeling due to the proximity and infrastructure connections with northern industries. In OTL Washington put a lot of emphasis on building canals on the Potomac, I wonder if, in TTL that effort might be put into building Canals to improve traffic on the Susquehanna?

 

[FleetMac]

I'd also wager that it would be more difficult in TTL for the British to burn down the American Capital in the War of 1812 (assuming no butterflies of course!) Similarly, it will be much more difficult for the capital to be cut off from the rest of the country during the Civil War.

Though it's still located in a "Southern State" I'd imagine that an American capital on the Susquehanna would be much more "Northern" feeling due to the proximity and infrastructure connections with northern industries. In OTL Washington put a lot of emphasis on building canals on the Potomac, I wonder if, in TTL that effort might be put into building Canals to improve traffic on the Susquehanna?

-Butterflies aside, I totally agree that the geography does lend itself to being more defensible not only from the shoreline of the river itself, but also because an enemy fleet has to traverse the whole Chesapeake naval gauntlet!

-In other words, just like how OTL D.C. has evolved, only much earlier and organically. I can't not see building Susquehanna-connected canals in such a TL for economic and western settlement reasons.

 

[Practical Lobster]

In a lot of places, isn't the geography around Havre de Grace a lot less suited towards a major urban center? The few times I've been there, it felt very hilly and closed off.

 

[FleetMac]

@Practical Lobster it's no more of an impediment than a literal swamp like OTL's spot (not to mention that the D.C. metro stretches into pretty hilly Cisappalachian bits itself). Besides, as long as there's enough room to house Federal government facilities and functions, why SHOULD the capital be a large city? I'd rather it didn't TBH!

 

[Md139115]

In OTL Washington put a lot of emphasis on building canals on the Potomac, I wonder if, in TTL that effort might be put into building Canals to improve traffic on the Susquehanna?

That’s just it. George Washington started pouring his fortunes into the Potomac canals years before the capital was selected for there.

It’s sometimes been rumored that the reason for Washington D.C. being where it is now is because Washington wanted a fatter return on his investment...

 

[dmg86]

The reason their wasn't a major city on the river is that it is not navigable for shipping.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

The Royal Navy can still go to the far end of the Chesapeake, in fact they landed Howe's army in the Havre de Grace area in the American War of Independence, and IOTL attacked Baltimore. I think the capitol still gets burned.

The American Civil War goes slightly differently, but with the federal government putting a lower priority on securing Maryland, there is a good chance Maryland secedes. That cancels out any benefit to the Union of the capitol being further away from Virginia. But the outcome doesn't change, just a couple of the battles that happened in Virginia will be fought in Maryland instead.

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

There is actually a bigger effect in the 20th century, starting around World War 2 but gaining pace in recent decades.

As the federal government expanded, the DC area went from being a backwater to being one of the top ten metro areas in population, and the top metro area in wealthy. Since a portion of the metro area was in Virginia, it meant about a million additional people living in Virginia and turned the states voting patterns into being more like a northeastern state than a southern state.

With Fairfax and neighboring countries remaining rural backwaters, Virginia winds up with a population and a political culture somewhere between that of Kentucky and Tennessee (without the tech industries its redder than neighboring North Carolina). However, the million bureaucrats and contractors wind up in Lancaster and York counties in Pennsylvania, turning that state much more securely blue.

If you a curious, no this does not change any presidential election results. It would mean a different Democratic VP nominee than Kaine, who is not a Senator ITTL. The Democrats lose two two Senate seats they have from Virginia and gain one from Pennsylvania, so you could get Obamacare repealed out of this (no, it doesn't get butterflied away) and there will be an effect on close votes in the Senate in future history. This also means the Republicans keep the Senate in 2007-09 (though both Senate candidates in Virginia that year probably live in Pennsylvania instead).

 

[Skallagrim]

The Royal Navy can still go to the far end of the Chesapeake, in fact they landed Howe's army in the Havre de Grace area in the American War of Independence, and IOTL attacked Baltimore. I think the capitol still gets burned.

The American Civil War goes slightly differently, but with the federal government putting a lower priority on securing Maryland, there is a good chance Maryland secedes. That cancels out any benefit to the Union of the capitol being further away from Virginia. But the outcome doesn't change, just a couple of the battles that happened in Virginia will be fought in Maryland instead.

But Havre de Grace is in Maryland. Or do you suppose that an alt-DC would split Maryland in two? I don't think this is particularly likely, but it is conceivable that 'Maryland' would just be the part west of the capital, whereas the peninsular part becomes a separate state ('Chesapeake'?)

 

[Arkenfolm]

It would create a pretty solid metro area right between Philadelphia and Baltimore

There is actually a bigger effect in the 20th century, starting around World War 2 but gaining pace in recent decades.

As the federal government expanded, the DC area went from being a backwater to being one of the top ten metro areas in population, and the top metro area in wealthy. Since a portion of the metro area was in Virginia, it meant about a million additional people living in Virginia and turned the states voting patterns into being more like a northeastern state than a southern state.

Related to your post, what about Alexandria, Virginia (or even another city on the Upper Potomac)? Would it develop into a city of any note that might make TTL's late 20th century Virginia Democrats competitive or is it more likely to be a case of "blue city in red state?" Would it be linked more to Baltimore without DC being in the way?

But Havre de Grace is in Maryland. Or do you suppose that an alt-DC would split Maryland in two? I don't think this is particularly likely, but it is conceivable that 'Maryland' would just be the part west of the capital, whereas the peninsular part becomes a separate state ('Chesapeake'?)

Could it join Delaware, or is that likely to be too politically infeasible for Maryland to lose even more land?

 

[Sevarics]

There’s a lot of butterflies slaughtered in this thread with regard to the 20th century and 21st century politics

 

[Skallagrim]

Could it join Delaware, or is that likely to be too politically infeasible for Maryland to lose even more land?

In a theoretical sense, I'd say that if Delaware and Rhode Island can exist, then 'Chesapeake' and rump-Maryland can exist just as well. The main issue would be for Maryland to agree to this. Potentially, they could be convinced by putting something important in Baltimore. Say, the headquarters of the navy, with lots of shipbuilding tied into it. Or, in a somewhat more convoluted move, this could be put in Virginia instead (which might make more logistical sense-- think Norfolk) and then Virginia gives up some of its land to the direct west of Maryland. That would allow Maryland to make up for its eastern loss with a western gain.

Stranger things have happened in politics!

 

[Roger II]

DC is...not a literal swamp. Also I don't see any discussion of how we get around the Assumption plan deal. Maybe Madison is a bit more OK with the assumption plan going through or there's some other compromise somewhere?