The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941

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galveston bay

zert said:
Very much so. Both sides lose a cruiser and 2 or 3 destroyers, but the US prevented the Japanese from bombarding Midway. So, for this encounter, a US tactical win and possibly a strategic plus. It could have been worse, and unfortunately the US will remain ignorant of their crappy torpedoes.

As I could not figure it out, in OTL, does anyone know which ship this is?

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Strategy/img/USA-P-Strategy-46.jpg
Click to expand...

Its the CA Mikuma after she has been bombed into wreckage at Midway
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
With the bombardment force shot-up, and the Japanese now know there are several US cruisers in the area; Yamamoto either commits his battleships to the bombardment task, or he withdraws. Withdrawal seems very unlikely.
 

zert

Driftless said:
With the bombardment force shot-up, and the Japanese now know there are several US cruisers in the area; Yamamoto either commits his battleships to the bombardment task, or he withdraws. Withdrawal seems very unlikely.
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The battleships would not be able to reach Midway before dawn, so any bombardment will have to wait until after air operations.
 

zert

I may have missed it, but were any other Japanese cruisers hit or damaged in the battle? If so, they may not be able to assist any further, depending on the damage. If nothing else they have used up their torpedoes, so have just their guns. Which can still do serious damage.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Driftless said:
With the bombardment force shot-up, and the Japanese now know there are several US cruisers in the area; Yamamoto either commits his battleships to the bombardment task, or he withdraws. Withdrawal seems very unlikely.
Click to expand...

zert said:
The battleships would not be able to reach Midway before dawn, so any bombardment will have to wait until after air operations.
Click to expand...

Still, Yamamoto has a "defecate or depart the crapper" decision to make.
 
Shadow Master

Shadow Master

Banned
zert said:
Very much so. Both sides lose a cruiser and 2 or 3 destroyers, but the US prevented the Japanese from bombarding Midway. So, for this encounter, a US tactical win and possibly a strategic plus. It could have been worse, and unfortunately the US will remain ignorant of their crappy torpedoes.

As I could not figure it out, in OTL, does anyone know which ship this is?

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-Strategy/img/USA-P-Strategy-46.jpg
Click to expand...
I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember a picture like that saying it was the "Mogami"(sp) class cruiser after the battle of midway, but I could be wrong.

Ninja'ed and wrong to boot, lol.
 

DaveJ576

galveston bay said:
2218 hours
The Porter launches 8 Mark 14 torpedoes aimed at the Japanese battle line as she turns.
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Oops! USN destroyers carried Mk 15 torpedoes. The Mk 15 was very similar to the Mk 14 but was longer, had a longer range, and a different size warhead. Stats below:

Mk 14:
Length: 20 ft 6 in, Range/Speed: 4500 yds/46 knots, 9000 yds/31 knots, warhead: 507 lbs TNT.

Mk 15:
Length: 22 ft 7 in, Range/Speed: 6000 yds/45 knots, 10000 yds/33.5 knots, 15000 yds/26.5 knots: warhead: 494 lbs TNT

All data is for the Mod 0 versions, later versions had improved performance and larger warheads. BOTH versions were equipped with the infamous Mk 6 magnetic influence exploder, which to put it mildly, was a piece of crap. The engines and depth keeping mechanisms were also the same and thus both versions suffered from the same problems. Looking at this data, an attack with Mk 15 torps at 12000 yds is theoretically doable, but the weapon would be set at its slowest speed and nearly at its maximum range and thus ANY hits would be extremely unlikely. If I was a destroyer captain I would want to launch a lot closer, preferably at 6000-7000 yds. Of course that places you in the kill zone for the enemy's guns so it is a trade off.
 

DaveJ576

Driftless said:
With the bombardment force shot-up, and the Japanese now know there are several US cruisers in the area; Yamamoto either commits his battleships to the bombardment task, or he withdraws. Withdrawal seems very unlikely.
Click to expand...
Historically, the Japanese were very reluctant to commit their battleships unless they knew exactly what they were getting them into and only if they had a reasonably good chance of success. (Look at Yamato's war experience prior to Okinawa) Plus they burned A LOT of fuel, which was already in short supply. Remember, to the IJN these ships were literally irreplaceable. The situation that has been described so far has caught the IJN by surprise and is making them second-guess. I say he would have withdrawn.
 
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DaveJ576

galveston bay said:
The Japanese cruisers meanwhile make their column turn, putting 24 torpedoes into the water. Hurriedly launched nearly all of them miss, but one hits the Lamson in the engineering spaces, causing her to slow enough that two more hit her in rapid succession.
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IOTL, USS Lamson DD-367 had a distinguished career and survived the war. Currently, her ship's bell hangs on the Quarterdeck of the Navy Operational Support Center Des Moines, IA.
Lamson bell.jpg
 
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