I haven't looked yet, I am planning to do the write up this weekend when I have more time to check out the details
The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941
- Thread starter galveston bay
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I haven't looked yet, I am planning to do the write up this weekend when I have more time to check out the details
torpedoes got the De Ruyter and Java.. the gunnery exchange was pretty inconclusive up to that point
After actions reports from the surviving ships included the opinion that the De Ruyter & Java were sunk by a enemy minefield. I think it was post war that it was confirmed from Japanese records and testimony there was no minefield & a large torpedo salvo had been launched. The nature of the Long Lance was not understood until unexploded examples were found beached & examined. Until then Allied naval leaders were inclined to dismiss the possibility a effective long range torpedo was in use.
edited as Newton outranks Fletcher, and increasing the size of the Japanese surface battle group that is available to act separately if needed
with an open seas encounter, the USN is unlikely to use 'minefield' as an excuse for something being wrong with the bloody ships that blow up unexpectedly
Battle of Kure Atoll December 9 1941
Night action December 9, 1941 (part 1)
15 miles east Kure Atoll (43 miles west of Midway)
The Ships (US)
The Americans are steaming with a line of 5 heavy cruisers (1,000 yards apart)
In the lead is the Chicago, which has a CXAM radar, which can detect surface ships at a range of 14 miles.
The Chicago is a Northhampton class heavy cruiser commissioned in 1931, and is flagship of Cruisers, Scouting Force, Pacific Fleet, as well as Cruiser Division 4. Aboard is Rear Admiral Newton who has limited experience with radar but is one of the few admirals in the US Navy with any experience at all. The Chicago (as well as the Chester) have the following details
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/N/o/Northampton_class.htm
all of the float planes from the cruisers are flown off with orders to fly to Midway Atoll (which with its bright white sand is easily visible in the dark)
Next in line is the Portland http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/o/Portland_class.htm
which is a bit newer, and a bit better armored (authors note: Richardson had his cruisers get their 1.1 inch guns earlier than OTL, but the 20 mm guns have not yet been added (.50 caliber machine guns are in place instead)
Next in line is the Minneapolis, a New Orleans Class heavy cruiser (as is the Astoria) which are newer still. They are heavier armored than the other American cruisers present.
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/N/e/New_Orleans_class.htm
the cruisers are 1,000 yards apart in line ahead formation with the Chicago in the lead, followed by the Portland, Minneapolis, Astoria and Chester
2,000 yards behind the cruisers is Destroyer Division 9 (Commander George Kriner), 4 Mahan class destroyers
in line ahead, with 1,000 yards between them are the Drayton, Flusser, Lamson and Mahan)
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/M/a/Mahan_class.htm
ahead of the column, 2,000 yards ahead of the lead cruiser, and 2,000 yards to the starboard (right for you non sailors) is the destroyer Alywin (Destroyer Division 2, Commander Flynn commanding), and 2,000 yards off to her starboard is the destroyer Farragut. Their mission, as well as the Monaghan, which is 2,000 yards ahead and 2,000 yards to the port of the lead cruiser as well as the destroyer Porter which is 2,000 yards to the port of the Monaghan, is to illuminate the enemy fleet with starshells once it is discovered, as Newton is not certain of how effective his radar will be in providing early warning.
the Alywin, Farragut and Monaghan are all Farragut class destroyers
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/a/Farragut_class.htm
The Porter is the only ship of her class present (and is the lead ship of her class)
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/o/Porter_class.htm
In total the American force covers an area 12,000 yards across (the picket destroyers), and in all stretches over 14,500 yards from beginning to end
(6 miles across by almost 8 miles in length) from beginning to end.
The American force is steaming at 30 knots, on a course to the northwest which will encounter the Japanese force at just after 2205 Hours local time.
Visibility: Lunar conditions Waxing Quarter Moon, sea state: 6 foot swells, with partly cloudy skies (40% cloud cover).
(authors note: for those who have never been to sea, it is pretty damned dark)
15 miles east Kure Atoll (43 miles west of Midway)
The Ships (US)
The Americans are steaming with a line of 5 heavy cruisers (1,000 yards apart)
In the lead is the Chicago, which has a CXAM radar, which can detect surface ships at a range of 14 miles.
The Chicago is a Northhampton class heavy cruiser commissioned in 1931, and is flagship of Cruisers, Scouting Force, Pacific Fleet, as well as Cruiser Division 4. Aboard is Rear Admiral Newton who has limited experience with radar but is one of the few admirals in the US Navy with any experience at all. The Chicago (as well as the Chester) have the following details
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/N/o/Northampton_class.htm
all of the float planes from the cruisers are flown off with orders to fly to Midway Atoll (which with its bright white sand is easily visible in the dark)
Next in line is the Portland http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/o/Portland_class.htm
which is a bit newer, and a bit better armored (authors note: Richardson had his cruisers get their 1.1 inch guns earlier than OTL, but the 20 mm guns have not yet been added (.50 caliber machine guns are in place instead)
Next in line is the Minneapolis, a New Orleans Class heavy cruiser (as is the Astoria) which are newer still. They are heavier armored than the other American cruisers present.
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/N/e/New_Orleans_class.htm
the cruisers are 1,000 yards apart in line ahead formation with the Chicago in the lead, followed by the Portland, Minneapolis, Astoria and Chester
2,000 yards behind the cruisers is Destroyer Division 9 (Commander George Kriner), 4 Mahan class destroyers
in line ahead, with 1,000 yards between them are the Drayton, Flusser, Lamson and Mahan)
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/M/a/Mahan_class.htm
ahead of the column, 2,000 yards ahead of the lead cruiser, and 2,000 yards to the starboard (right for you non sailors) is the destroyer Alywin (Destroyer Division 2, Commander Flynn commanding), and 2,000 yards off to her starboard is the destroyer Farragut. Their mission, as well as the Monaghan, which is 2,000 yards ahead and 2,000 yards to the port of the lead cruiser as well as the destroyer Porter which is 2,000 yards to the port of the Monaghan, is to illuminate the enemy fleet with starshells once it is discovered, as Newton is not certain of how effective his radar will be in providing early warning.
the Alywin, Farragut and Monaghan are all Farragut class destroyers
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/a/Farragut_class.htm
The Porter is the only ship of her class present (and is the lead ship of her class)
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/o/Porter_class.htm
In total the American force covers an area 12,000 yards across (the picket destroyers), and in all stretches over 14,500 yards from beginning to end
(6 miles across by almost 8 miles in length) from beginning to end.
The American force is steaming at 30 knots, on a course to the northwest which will encounter the Japanese force at just after 2205 Hours local time.
Visibility: Lunar conditions Waxing Quarter Moon, sea state: 6 foot swells, with partly cloudy skies (40% cloud cover).
(authors note: for those who have never been to sea, it is pretty damned dark)
Battle of Kure Atoll (part 2)
Japanese Forces: Midway Bombardment Force (Cruiser Division 6 plus escorts)
The Japanese force is steaming due west at 30 knots and is not expecting to run into any enemy forces as none of been spotted. The last report was of a pair of old 4 stack destroyers anchored off Midway (spotted by search aircraft in the late afternoon) and they are not expected to remain in the area.
However, after the submarine attack on the 1st Air Fleet, and just in case the Americans are willing to fight with those old ships, Rear Admiral Goto has his two destroyers 5,000 yards ahead of his cruisers, with the Yugure south of the cruisers track at 2,000 yards (thus on his starboard side ahead) and the Shigure off to the north (thus port side) of the column.
The Yugure is a Hatsuharu-class destroyer
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/H/a/Hatsuharu_class.htm
The Shigure is a Shiratsuyu-class destroyer
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/S/h/Shiratsuyu_class.htm
in gun power the Japanese destroyers are markedly inferior to the American destroyers and indeed they carry about the same number of torpedoes. However they have far better weapons than the American torpedoes
The four cruisers are 1,500 yards apart in a line ahead formation. They are the Japanese 6th Cruiser Division, with years of working together and have been under Admiral Goto's command for 4 months.
In the lead (in the order indicated) are the Aoba and the Kinugasha, each are Aoba class heavy cruisers. This class is smaller than the American cruisers, have only 3 x 2 gun 8 inch turrets, but unlike the American cruisers carries 12 torpedoes.
(authors note: the Pacific encyclopedia neglected this class, so using wikipedia for those interested in them)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Aoba
next in line are the Furataka and Kako (in that order)
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/u/Furutaka_class.htm (number of 8 inch guns is incorrect)
these ships are the smallest of the Japanese heavy cruisers, and the oldest but while having only 6 x 8 inch guns they carry 8 torpedoes.
The Japanese force is steaming at 30 knots due west and expects to reach Midway around midnight. The cruisers have their aircraft aboard, and 1 Kawanishi E7K Alf floatplane on their catapults which they intend to launch once they are within 15 miles of Midway to drop flares and correct the ships bombardment of Midway.
Goto has instructions to neutralize the American airfield and the aircraft located on it, and to avoid pointless engagements with shore batteries and thus is to remain out of range of the American 5'inch guns expected to be there.
The Japanese force is steaming due west at 30 knots and is not expecting to run into any enemy forces as none of been spotted. The last report was of a pair of old 4 stack destroyers anchored off Midway (spotted by search aircraft in the late afternoon) and they are not expected to remain in the area.
However, after the submarine attack on the 1st Air Fleet, and just in case the Americans are willing to fight with those old ships, Rear Admiral Goto has his two destroyers 5,000 yards ahead of his cruisers, with the Yugure south of the cruisers track at 2,000 yards (thus on his starboard side ahead) and the Shigure off to the north (thus port side) of the column.
The Yugure is a Hatsuharu-class destroyer
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/H/a/Hatsuharu_class.htm
The Shigure is a Shiratsuyu-class destroyer
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/S/h/Shiratsuyu_class.htm
in gun power the Japanese destroyers are markedly inferior to the American destroyers and indeed they carry about the same number of torpedoes. However they have far better weapons than the American torpedoes
The four cruisers are 1,500 yards apart in a line ahead formation. They are the Japanese 6th Cruiser Division, with years of working together and have been under Admiral Goto's command for 4 months.
In the lead (in the order indicated) are the Aoba and the Kinugasha, each are Aoba class heavy cruisers. This class is smaller than the American cruisers, have only 3 x 2 gun 8 inch turrets, but unlike the American cruisers carries 12 torpedoes.
(authors note: the Pacific encyclopedia neglected this class, so using wikipedia for those interested in them)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Aoba
next in line are the Furataka and Kako (in that order)
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/u/Furutaka_class.htm (number of 8 inch guns is incorrect)
these ships are the smallest of the Japanese heavy cruisers, and the oldest but while having only 6 x 8 inch guns they carry 8 torpedoes.
The Japanese force is steaming at 30 knots due west and expects to reach Midway around midnight. The cruisers have their aircraft aboard, and 1 Kawanishi E7K Alf floatplane on their catapults which they intend to launch once they are within 15 miles of Midway to drop flares and correct the ships bombardment of Midway.
Goto has instructions to neutralize the American airfield and the aircraft located on it, and to avoid pointless engagements with shore batteries and thus is to remain out of range of the American 5'inch guns expected to be there.
while I have mapped out all of this using pencil and paper, I lack the skills to make a decent map for online viewing...sorry folks
I will try to be as descriptive as I can. Remember that while the reader will be told what the various ships are doing, the participants are going to be far less clear on where the various ships are.
I hope to post the battle tomorrow
I can't find a specific cutaway of any of the cruisers involved, but here is a generic view so readers can know what the lay out of a cruiser typically looks like
generally speaking the boilers are beneath the forward superstructure and directly amidships, while the engine rooms beneath the aft superstructure and the steering compartment is at the stern. The magazines beneath each turret will have somewhat more armor than the engineering compartments which are protected by the armored belt
generally speaking the boilers are beneath the forward superstructure and directly amidships, while the engine rooms beneath the aft superstructure and the steering compartment is at the stern. The magazines beneath each turret will have somewhat more armor than the engineering compartments which are protected by the armored belt
no, they were flown off because Halsey wants every available scout plane to send out from Midway. The Hangers aboard those cruisers are fire hazards, really bad ones, and if hit will burn exactly like you would expect them to. The American ships have not stripped for action either, so a lot of paint, wood etc aboard and that too is a major fire hazard. The importance of keeping exposed skin from being exposed has also not yet been made clear, so more flash burns will happen.
While Savo Island was a disaster for the American surface warships, it was very instructive. At least in terms of damage control techniques learned and measures taken to reduce burn casualties.
Well from what I can guess, the Japanese are in a smaller and tighter group, the US in a wider and more spread out one. Once they detect and find one another, the Japanese may be able to concentrate on 1 to 2 US cruisers before the rest of the US task group can maneuver to bring their guns and torpedoes to bear. If so, the US may lose those first cruisers, but the rest may be able to give the Japanese a couple of haymaker blows.
If the US should be able to detect the Japanese first and maybe do a cross the T, they may be able to decimate some of the Japanese ships.
Most likely, it will break down to slug fest and a rolling ramble.
If the US should be able to detect the Japanese first and maybe do a cross the T, they may be able to decimate some of the Japanese ships.
Most likely, it will break down to slug fest and a rolling ramble.
The Japanese cruisers are actually in a longer line than the American cruisers (6,000 yards vs 5,000 yards) and are not expecting a surface action. Because the Americans will have almost unlimited freedom of maneuver before the engagement begins, the question becomes, can the American cruisers get ahead of the Japanese to cross the T?
Just to clarify, are Alywin, Farragut, Monahan, and Porter in line abreast with 2,000 yards of spacing and positioned 2,000 yards ahead of Chicago?
The Wikipedia article for the CXAM radar cites a source saying that Chester (CA-27) along with Chicago (CA-29) received one of the first six CXAM radars delivered in 1940. Did you find a different source or is that different in the ATL?
Just to clarify, are Alywin, Farragut, Monahan, and Porter in line abreast with 2,000 yards of spacing and positioned 2,000 yards ahead of Chicago?
The Wikipedia article for the CXAM radar cites a source saying that Chester (CA-27) along with Chicago (CA-29) received one of the first six CXAM radars delivered in 1940. Did you find a different source or is that different in the ATL?
I somehow misread it and that they were 1500 yards total, not apart from one another.
Thanks for the correction.
no the Chester has it too, but as she is at the rear of the cruiser column (a bit over 2 miles back from the head of the column) her radar is less relevant
and yes, you have the spacing right on the forward destroyer division
I somehow misread it and that they were 1500 yards total, not apart from one another.
Thanks for the correction.
chuckle, that kind of proximity would be a likely collision danger at that speed and in the conditions of visibility ... basically each ship is at least 5 ship lengths from the one in front of it, and in the case of the Japanese, even further. Time enough to take evasive action in case of the need to do so.
at 30 knots it takes about 1 minute to cover 500 yards (more or less), so space does equal reaction time. The Japanese have trained more at night and thus gave themselves more space (and thus reaction time) to avoid collision issues.
these cruisers average around 600 feet in length apiece, so when you look at the length of the column add about 200 yards for each ship in it (for the cruisers) and about half that for the destroyers in it
I understand the logic NOW, just not when I misunderstood and did not think of the close quarters and high speed ramifications. The Japanese lost ships due to collisions in battle, so you are spot on on having better spacing.
Battle of Kure Atoll Part 3 Opening Action
Night Battle of Kure Atoll
Impending Battle
2200 Hours 9 December, 1941
The American warships are moving at high speed to engage the enemy with the expectation of attacking the Japanese squadron before it reaches Midway. The American crews are at their battle stations and have been for over an hour after having their supper and a brief rest before the night ahead.
The Japanese are steaming at the same speed (30 Knots) with the expectation of beginning their bombardment around midnight. Crews are already preparing the cruiser float planes for launch, and the Japanese commanders are preparing to call their crews to general quarters within an hour. For now half of their crews are at their stations, the rest are resting as best they can as it is expected to be a long night.
The Enemy is in Sight!
2205 hours
Radar operators aboard the Chicago spot 6 surface contacts at 12 miles from the Chicago (which puts them 11 miles from the American destroyers in the van). Admiral Newton is quickly alerted.
2207 hours
Newton gets on TBS (Talk Between Ships voice radio) and orders Commander Flynn and his four ships to proceed directly toward the enemy, close as per the battle plan hurriedly put together three hours before. This plan calls for Flynn and his destroyer division to close with the enemy and after illuminating the enemy column launch their torpedoes and turn west to get out of the line of fire. Meanwhile Newton orders a course change from its current heading of 315 degrees (northwest) to 290 degrees (north northwest) as he is hoping to cross the T of the approaching enemy.
Aboard the Aoba a Japanese radio operator makes out what he thinks is a voice message but it is garbled. He attempts to locate the channel he heard it on better, intently listening for more.
2210 hours
On the Aoba, the Japanese communications officer is alerted that the radio is picking up what sounds like it could be voice chatter from somewhere close. Admiral Goto is alerted.
2215 hours
At this point the American destroyer Porter has accelerated to its full speed of 36 knots on a course heading 315 NW. The Japanese destroyer Yuguri is steaming at 30 knots on a heading of 90 W. The Porter is 10,000 yards from the Yuguri at a 1 o'clock position relative to the Japanese ship. The Monaghan is directly ahead of the Yuguri (12 o'clock position) at just over 12,000 yards.
Aboard the Aoba, Admiral Goto decides that perhaps the American destroyers spotted earlier at Midway have come out to fight. He orders a signal of battle stations be sent by voice radio to his force with signal lamp to also be used to ensure that all ships receive the warning. The Aoba goes to general quarters.
2216 hours
aboard the Porter, American lookouts spot the signal lamp message from the Aoba to the Yuguri. Captain Overesch, commander Destroyer Squadron 5, and senior destroyer command tells Lieutenant Commander Entwistle to illuminate the ship that used its signal light. Meanwhile, at the 1 o'clock position relative to the Aoba, the Chicago is just over 16,000 yards away and the American cruiser column is about to cross the Japanese “T”.
(authors note: A handy reference for compass points
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_the_compass
also remember, for you non sailors, port is left, starboard is right, aft is the rear (as is the stern), and forward (as is the bow) is the front. I know most of you don't need me to tell you that, but putting it in there just in case)
Talk Between Ships is low powered voice radio. For long range communications morse code is used (in the respective code for each Navy of course), and signal (Aldis) lamps are used at night. A star shell is basically a flare shot out of a cannon. All of these ships have multiple searchlights
Impending Battle
2200 Hours 9 December, 1941
The American warships are moving at high speed to engage the enemy with the expectation of attacking the Japanese squadron before it reaches Midway. The American crews are at their battle stations and have been for over an hour after having their supper and a brief rest before the night ahead.
The Japanese are steaming at the same speed (30 Knots) with the expectation of beginning their bombardment around midnight. Crews are already preparing the cruiser float planes for launch, and the Japanese commanders are preparing to call their crews to general quarters within an hour. For now half of their crews are at their stations, the rest are resting as best they can as it is expected to be a long night.
The Enemy is in Sight!
2205 hours
Radar operators aboard the Chicago spot 6 surface contacts at 12 miles from the Chicago (which puts them 11 miles from the American destroyers in the van). Admiral Newton is quickly alerted.
2207 hours
Newton gets on TBS (Talk Between Ships voice radio) and orders Commander Flynn and his four ships to proceed directly toward the enemy, close as per the battle plan hurriedly put together three hours before. This plan calls for Flynn and his destroyer division to close with the enemy and after illuminating the enemy column launch their torpedoes and turn west to get out of the line of fire. Meanwhile Newton orders a course change from its current heading of 315 degrees (northwest) to 290 degrees (north northwest) as he is hoping to cross the T of the approaching enemy.
Aboard the Aoba a Japanese radio operator makes out what he thinks is a voice message but it is garbled. He attempts to locate the channel he heard it on better, intently listening for more.
2210 hours
On the Aoba, the Japanese communications officer is alerted that the radio is picking up what sounds like it could be voice chatter from somewhere close. Admiral Goto is alerted.
2215 hours
At this point the American destroyer Porter has accelerated to its full speed of 36 knots on a course heading 315 NW. The Japanese destroyer Yuguri is steaming at 30 knots on a heading of 90 W. The Porter is 10,000 yards from the Yuguri at a 1 o'clock position relative to the Japanese ship. The Monaghan is directly ahead of the Yuguri (12 o'clock position) at just over 12,000 yards.
Aboard the Aoba, Admiral Goto decides that perhaps the American destroyers spotted earlier at Midway have come out to fight. He orders a signal of battle stations be sent by voice radio to his force with signal lamp to also be used to ensure that all ships receive the warning. The Aoba goes to general quarters.
2216 hours
aboard the Porter, American lookouts spot the signal lamp message from the Aoba to the Yuguri. Captain Overesch, commander Destroyer Squadron 5, and senior destroyer command tells Lieutenant Commander Entwistle to illuminate the ship that used its signal light. Meanwhile, at the 1 o'clock position relative to the Aoba, the Chicago is just over 16,000 yards away and the American cruiser column is about to cross the Japanese “T”.
(authors note: A handy reference for compass points
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_the_compass
also remember, for you non sailors, port is left, starboard is right, aft is the rear (as is the stern), and forward (as is the bow) is the front. I know most of you don't need me to tell you that, but putting it in there just in case)
Talk Between Ships is low powered voice radio. For long range communications morse code is used (in the respective code for each Navy of course), and signal (Aldis) lamps are used at night. A star shell is basically a flare shot out of a cannon. All of these ships have multiple searchlights
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