The Anglo/American - Nazi War

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nbcman

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I guess 3 are not enough as well? Actually I have posted passages from 4 books supporting my claim - you people have provided 0.0 evidence supporting your position. Turned out the one main point you criticised - that there was no air attack against Berlin with as many aircraft as claimed by wiki - has been debunked.

Actually, I provided details of the USAAF missions during the month of March 1945 of the raid in question which was compiled from primary sources such as:

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973

Also, l performed an accounting of the total numbers of USAAF bombers lost in the month of March which indicates a lower loss rate than the numbers claimed in the 3 books that you've cited-unless the authors of the books you've cited have evidence that there were 250+ BC bombers lost or that there was a mistake in the USAAF's accounting of lost aircraft.

EDIT: But this discussion about the capabilities of the R4M should probably be spun off into its own thread - unless the thread author wants the discussion to continue here.
 

Telakasi

Banned
Actually, I provided details of the USAAF missions during the month of March 1945 of the raid in question

You delivered evidence that supports my claim - you were not meant with that comment. ;) As for bomber losses - the British lost 590 Bombers from January-April 1945 so I assume that the Americans lost an equal number - thats roughly 1200 Allied bombers in the first 4 months of 1945. Thats roughly 500 bombers from mid March to early May. Count in a few hundred fighters and total Allied air losses in the last 6-7 weeks of the war were most likely somewhere around 1000-1200 aircraft. Meaning that the R4M destroyed between 1/3 and half of all Allied aircraft. I think this is not an unrealistic number.
 
You delivered evidence that supports my claim - you were not meant with that comment. ;) As for bomber losses - the British lost 590 Bombers from January-April 1945 so I assume that the Americans lost an equal number - thats roughly 1200 Allied bombers in the first 4 months of 1945. Thats roughly 500 bombers from mid March to early May. Count in a few hundred fighters and total Allied air losses in the last 6-7 weeks of the war were most likely somewhere around 1000-1200 aircraft. Meaning that the R4M destroyed between 1/3 and half of all Allied aircraft. I think this is not an unrealistic number.

That seems highly unrealistic.

Losses have to be split between AA and defending fighters (and accidents etc).
Losses to defending fighters will be split between nightfighters and day fighters - probably mostly to day fighters. Night fighters are unlikely to be using a new weapon, that'll be saved for the daytime to use it to best effect.
Out of losses to day fighters, most losses will be to guns, because every aircraft is equipped with guns.
 

Telakasi

Banned
These losses would be only the ones lost in combat. Also by early 1945 the Germans didnt have much fighters/pilots left. So I assume that most of the aircraft that were not shot down by AA guns were shot down by Me 262´s with R4M rockets.
 
Being doing a bit of asking around and have found that when tested post-war it was found that these rockets were pretty much useless due to erratic flight paths. Going up to 90 degrees off course was not unknown.

Anyway I feel a bit like I'm playing chess with a pigeon now.
 
Being doing a bit of asking around and have found that when tested post-war it was found that these rockets were pretty much useless due to erratic flight paths. Going up to 90 degrees off course was not unknown.

Anyway I feel a bit like I'm playing chess with a pigeon now.
We should at least provide credible sources instead of shouting "you're wrong because...you're wrong."
 

Telakasi

Banned
Being doing a bit of asking around and have found that when tested post-war it was found that these rockets were pretty much useless due to erratic flight paths. Going up to 90 degrees off course was not unknown.

A guy who bickers that passages from 4 different books are not enough has been asking around and thats your evidence ?

Ludicrous. Fact is you dont have anything that claims that the r4m rocket was ineffective. You just dont want to admit it. Probably because it would put a dent in this allies wanking idolized TL.
 

Telakasi

Banned
Siting bad evidence and refusing to admit that the people who have counted his argument is right.

I provide passages from 4 different books you call it ''bad evidence''. You provide NOTHING and call it '' refuses to damit that people countered his argument'' thats rich. How about you produce some evidence for a change instead of unsupported claims?
 
I provide passages from 4 different books you call it ''bad evidence''. You provide NOTHING and call it '' refuses to damit that people countered his argument'' thats rich. How about you produce some evidence for a change instead of unsupported claims?
Not trying to take sides, but they did. They provided U.S. records of lost bombers, which stated that they lost like 13 bombers during the 2k aircraft raid on 18 March 1945, of which 8 were to flak. You claimed that 25 planes were lost that day but the source states that only 19 were, and 2/5 of which were, again, lost to flak.
 
We should at least provide credible sources instead of shouting "you're wrong because...you're wrong."

I'm working on it. However I have asked people who through past experience have been credible sources. That said saying 'you're wrong because this guy on the internet says...' is not really a very good argument.
 
I provide passages from 4 different books you call it ''bad evidence''. You provide NOTHING and call it '' refuses to damit that people countered his argument'' thats rich. How about you produce some evidence for a change instead of unsupported claims?

I didn't but nbcman did. He brought out the official USAF books on these campaigns. He pointed out the lost rates for the bomber campaign in the time frame you sited with your books. I will take the official USAF story which accounts for how most of the aircraft were lost over your four books. Further given that the USAF's own Mighty Mouse rockets showed that in single airplane combat they sucked and really only worked in mass formations I doubt the R4M would had been a game changer that you are trying to make it out to be. Calbear stated that both the USAF and RAF had moved away from the bomber streams of OTL WWII and moved to strike packages that would had been common in a WWIII set up which honestly being honest is what AANW is. Instead of the Soviets and "friends" its Nazi Germany and "friends."
 

CalBear

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To be honest, even though I have to side with the Germans "Ooh shiny" syndrome, I can't see this view being prevalent when the WAllies start using nukes against Germany, they MIGHT(stretching it right there) go forth with what's practical. Something of a chance, but low. Even though this is CalBear's timeline and he's done, maybe Speer the technocrat might have greater involvement in the right projects?

Also, even though Telakasi is new, he does post sources from texts. If he had done just wiki, I would be dismissive, but he has provided 3 books as sources for his argument so he seems to have good ground in his argument. So to be honest, provide a source against him, if he isn't right, instead of throwing insults at him claiming he's wrong.
The Reich WOULD have developed nukes if they had had the time. The first nuclear strike took place less than a year before the effective obliteration of the Reich. There was no way for the Reich to create a weapon and reasonable delivery system in that time. The Reich did reverse engineer things like transistors when the opportunity presented, usually as a result of aircraft losses by the WAllies.

As is almost always the case, both sides struggled to come up with clear counters/duplication of the enemy's breakthroughs. The WAllies had no more success in developing nerve agents in the last year of the war then the Reich had in trying to make a bomb (and nerve gas is child's play compared to a nuclear weapon).

The Reich was not stupid, insane yes, but not stupid. The Nazi leadership made mistakes that are so common throughout history as to be a given. The prepared to refight the last war and bought into their own propaganda. The WAllies did this as well, learning, in the hardest way possible, that the armored warfare assumptions that had trailed them out of the Pacific Phase were, literally, dead wrong. This added at least a year to the war while both the U.S. and UK went into a crash program of turning previously rejected heavy tank designs into full scale production. The U.S. literally stopped all tank production for half a year while retooling to produce the new Sheridan and Chamberlain tanks (both of which BTW, have OTL counterparts that were either rejected or put into very limited production).

The Reich tried to produce new aircraft, especially additional fighter types, to deal with the very different WAllied platforms and the vastly different tactics the WAllied air forces utilized after the full resumption of the war. The Reich was, however, substantially handicapped compared to the WAllies. While they had the resources of Europe and a large part of "Siberia", the U.S. had control of some of the most important resource regions in "Western Alaska', and the Reich had effectively zero access to many of the "rare earths" and other resources (rubber especially) that the Wallies had in virtually unlimited quantities. This greatly limited the Reich's engineers in what the could take from concept to reality (an OTL example of this is the Jumo 004 that powered the Me-262, compared to the RR Nene it was an operational disaster, requiring replacement every 50 hours of run time (often much less, Luftwaffe maintenance records have numerous example of replacement being required after as little as 12 hours of operating time or roughly 4 missions).
 

CalBear

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Sorry but were you not aware of the R4M rocket when you wrote this TL? This little marvel destroyed between 400 and 500 Allied bombers in just 6 weeks. During a time when the Germans were low on fuel, pilots and aircraft and even these rockets. If the Germans have no Eastern Front to worry about then these rockets will defeat the Allied Bomber offensive in 1945 - how is the war going to last into 1946/47???

Also by the 1950´s this rocket will have been much more sophisticated, the Allies could not even dream of achieving air superiority. Not one single bomber would get through.
I was quite aware of it. It is actually mentioned several times.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
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