Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
I'm more surprised that CalBear didn't know there was a TV Tropes page.
The Anglo/American - Nazi War
- Thread starter CalBear
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George Carty
Banned
I suspect it would be overwhelmingly "if only the Jews had taken heed of them and got out of Europe while they had the chance!"
IMHO as evil as the Nazis were they were not "stupid". My understanding of the overall plan (not Generalplan Ost per se) was that while all of certain categories such as Jews, Roma, would be completely exterminated, other Untermenschen would be drastically reduced in numbers but an underclass/slave class would be maintained. Once the Untermenschen population has been reduced to the level needed for the sort of manual labor illiterates could provide, this could be maintained. For more skilled labor, the Reich drew on occupied/allied countries where folks would either be hired straight out (but paid less than Aryans) or do their national service doing labor service in the Reich. There is no reason to expect that the Nazis would end up all of a sudden having an economic collapse due to killing all the slaves.
Archibald
Banned
I have an antidote for you. It seems an intact Alaska-class large cruiser has been found frozen in antarctica. USN officials say they have been so impressed by the design they want to build a modern copy as USN counterpart to Russia upgraded Kirov-class.
Trump said a dozen will be build to be the backbone of USN. "Make Alaska great again !" he concluded.
I'm not sure that making him froth at the mouth is a suitable antidote for what ails him currently....
As a tragedy and an opportunity lost, probably forever.
After the Palestine Self Determination Plebiscite went against the Zionists the overwhelming majority of the Jews in Palestine left (there were ~500,000 there in 1960). Many went to the U.S. or UK, while others went elsewhere in the region or even back to Europe (the Poles and Russians in particular were desperate for returnees, even a couple generations removed), but the U.S is home to about 80% of the remaining Jews on Earth. The really sad part is that the U.S. Jewish population is only about 400,000 more than IOTL.
Jew make up a tiny minority of the Population of ONE country, with small communities elsewhere.
There's actually a couple of pages on AANW on TV Tropes. For anyone who wants to see:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...mericanNaziWar?from=Main.AngloAmericanNaziWar
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/TheAngloAmericanNaziWar
As bad as this would be (and it would be throwing up in a dumpster bad), if they cancelled the rest of the LCS program to pay for it...
They would have to decide whether to keep the surviving Slavs and Poles in serfdom on German plantations in the East or send a portion for manual labor/dirty jobs throughout the rest of Nazi Europe.
CalBear can explain but the way I see it once Generalplan Ost is complete there wouldn't be a glut of expendable manpower like there was when they were working millions to death yearly for 20+ years straight so the quality of life for Reich citizens would suffer as costs increase due to a much smaller slave force that unlike before has to be treated somewhat okay (no annual mortality rates of 50% and higher).
The Reich wasn't stupid but their economic policies have been described as worse than the USSR's.
What would Molotov tell Hitler and Himmler?
"Sorry we don't have any more able bodied workers for you to use. Please don't bomb/invade us."
What would the Nazi response be?
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"Fuck you.
Pay me."
Followed by heavy bombing and/or taking the families of the Soviet leadership as hostages.
Keep in mind this is HIMMLER'S version of the Reich (aka Hitler's on double the crack and 1/3 the political skills).
It would likely begin with Waffen SS troops (which already have a presence inside the rump USSR to offer "technical assistance" with maintaining the DMZ, along with Gestapo personnel who inspect the goods trains) simply going into towns and taking everyone they deemed capable of work, starting with the local Party officials and their families, shipping the selected workers off to the Reich and then going full-on Lidice on whoever was not deemed as useful.
It almost certainly wouldn't get to that stage. The number of workers required isn't so large that the Soviet Union will be empty, at least not in any reasonable time frame. Even at a million+ a year the total sent to enslavement isn't going to prevent the Soviets from maintaining something resembling a population balance. Give it 40 years and then the numbers will start to become impossible.
However - Since the Reich owned the air over the USSR, at least until it ran into WAllied aircraft flying out of Iran, Afghanistan, India and eventually Western Alaska (once the Japanese were defeated) they had the ability to see if trains were pulling people out of the border zones (in addition to overt Reich presence and "tongues" among the locals) Berlin will have a very good estimate of what the situation is on the ground. There is no doubt that the Nazis have the ability and sheer bloodymindedness to react. It would take an extremely brave Soviet leader to sign his own death warrant, along with every member of his family the Gestapo could find
It could eventually come down to what the Mob does when a customer can no longer make the payments (I stole the response I posted from Goodfellas). If it is a person you kill them (but only AFTER you are 100% sure they are squeezed dry), usually with a bad death, if it is a business your burn it down and collect the insurance. The Reich was dreadfully adept at making innocent people suffer.
Can we get an explanation for why the Germans even allowed a rump USSR to exist instead of installing the (Japanese-backed) "Russian Fascist Party" in power over Siberia?
I suspect one of the reasons is that the Germans wanted to ensure an indirect path of trading with the Western Allies. If they set up some kind of Japanese puppet government the Western Allies would just invade it as part of the final phase of the Pacific War. Keeping the USSR in power allows them to have small window to the non European world without the Allies Navies getting in the way. Also, once the Western Allies starting marching west from Siberia, how many Russians will join them and suddenly the Eastern Front has started up again.
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Are you saying that Himmler was less competent but crazier than Hitler?
Not necessarily crazier. Much more ruthless and even less skilled at higher level military command, something he made up for with sheer brutality.
This is made even worse considering that for all the nightmares and atrocities he was responsible for ITTL and IOTL, Himmler (and the rest of Hitler's inner circle) genuinely believed they were doing what was right and never lost sleep over wiping out entire races.
I remember reading something Himmler said to Waffen-SS troopers after the Final Solution was enacted for history class. He said that the troopers would almost certainly take qualm with the fact that they are slaughtering women and children but that at the end of the day it's for a good cause that will allow them and their descendants to live safely and comfortably and so they should dispel with any moral feelings objecting to them committing such acts. That alone should be evidence enough of just how much potential the guy had in OTL to do all the things he did, let alone all the unspeakably heinous atrocities of this timeline.
Because the Reich was, even to Hitler's satisfaction, running out of combat troops. It is 1,837 MILES/2,950km from Arkhangelsk to the Caspian Sea. Hitler had achieved his goals, pushing the Soviets across the Urals and out of Europe entirely. The Soviet leadership was willing to make peace, not jump out of the plane without a parachute. Even as busted up as the Soviets were, there was still a LOT of Soviet Asia intact. In VICTORY the Heer had lost over a million men, KIA/WIA/maimed (IOTL, before the POD for the ATL, German KIA/MIA were already over 500K. ATL the got back around 30K PoW who had been listed as MIA, but unrecoverable losses were still more than the the U.S or UK/Commonwealth suffered in ALL of WW II in all theaters)
Hitler had achieved his goals in the East, extracted a peace agreement that made Versailles look like an agreement between equals, secured a constant supply of slave labor, enormous amounts of raw materials and was then able to turn his full attention to securing the West against the "English". He was very worried about the WAllies having a go at the Channel Coast before he could properly fortify the coast (this, BTW, tracks with OTL; one reason for the German disaster at Stalingrad was that Hitler desperately wanted to secure his victory in the East before the Wallies could really get going).
His concern was given additional substance when part of Army Group A tried to push into Iran, running into a major part of the British Army, including a very large contingent of Indian Army formation, and an unexpectedly large number of WAllied combat aircraft (as things went from bad to worse in the USSR the WAllies sort of hit the panic button and sent a LOT of heavy bombardment Groups that had been earmarked for the CBO on a long dogleg flight from the UK to Iran, via Africa). The Americans used almost 120 B-17 and B-24 in a tactical role, with the RAF adding about 100 heavies and Mosquitoes. The WAllied losses were heavy due to Luftflotte 4 fighter attacks and AAA, but Army Group A lost the better part of two Panzer divisions. The WAllies then proceeded to pound the hell out of Baku, which had been mainly left alone to that point in time.
In short the Wehrmacht & Hitler realized that it was at a rather clear stopping point. This is mentioned, very, VERY, briefly, early in the T/L.
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