The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[Judge Dredd34]

Or seeing what their country became, would the Pied Noirs embrace an Algerian identity?

I’m not sure embracing the current Algerian identity would be fully possible. At best it would be like a state within a state where the Pied Noirs would agree to work for the current Algerian administration but be very loud about maintaining their rights as a minority (think OTL Quebec). Fully embracing Algeria identity would mean converting to Islam, losing a lot of aspects of their European roots, and basically accepting the loss of whatever unfair privileges they enjoyed over French colonial rule. I’m not sure if Algeria even as a democratic member of the U.N. would want to be nice to the former colonial collaborators. I could imagine that it will take time on both sides to let go of their grievances.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

I’m not sure embracing the current Algerian identity would be fully possible. At best it would be like a state within a state where the Pied Noirs would agree to work for the current Algerian administration but be very loud about maintaining their rights as a minority (think OTL Quebec). Fully embracing Algeria identity would mean converting to Islam, losing a lot of aspects of their European roots, and basically accepting the loss of whatever unfair privileges they enjoyed over French colonial rule. I’m not sure if Algeria even as a democratic member of the U.N. would want to be nice to the former colonial collaborators powers. I could imagine that it will take time on both sides to let go of their grievances.

Not the OTL Algerian identity. But once they would be forced to grant rights to their Muslim counterparts, would they be forced to build a new Algerian identity that combines elements of Francophone culture with Maghreb culture?

 

[Judge Dredd34]

Not the OTL Algerian identity. But once they would be forced to grant rights to their Muslim counterparts, would they be forced to build a new Algerian identity that combines elements of Francophone culture with Maghreb culture?

If they want to stay in Algeria yes, but even without the Algerian war of independence (which radicalized the population). There would still be a lot of self-segregation between the European Roman Catholic Pied Noirs and the North African Sunni Muslim Arabs. It should be noted that despite living in the same country they existed almost in different universes in a way similar to the Jim Crow South, each had a very different of pre-war France (one thought of themselves as fully French, while the other grew exhausted of being a second-class citizen). Any attempt for the Pied Noirs to fuse Maghreb culture with European will be very difficult for the now ex colonists to accept. It’s not impossible just not easy having to accept the people they thought of just “indigenous people” of the land they controlled for over a century, are now equals and native Algerian culture is now the master of the land. As I mentioned before, if they want to co-exist they’re going to have to learn how to reconcile their differences.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

If they want to stay in Algeria yes, but even without the Algerian war of independence (which radicalized the population). There would still be a lot of self-segregation between the European Roman Catholic Pied Noirs and the North African Sunni Muslim Arabs community’s. It should be noted that despite living in the same country they existed almost in different universes in a way similar to the Jim Crow South, each had a very different of pre-war France (one thought of themselves as fully French, while the other grew exhausted of being a second-class citizen). Any attempt for the Pied Noirs to fuse Maghreb culture with European will be very difficult for the now ex colonists to accept. It’s not impossible just not easy having to accept the people they thought of just “indigenous people” of the land they controlled for over a century, are now equals and native Algerian culture is now the master of the land. As I mentioned before, if they want to co-exist they’re going to have to learn how to reconcile their differences.

I think a better comparison would be South Africa under apartheid. One person described South Africa and other European colonies as "first-world enclaves ruling over third-world nations."

How Algeria could reform itself into a more (legally) equal society is an interesting process, but it would be long, complicated, and not without some bloodshed.

 

[Judge Dredd34]

I think a better comparison would be South Africa under apartheid. One person described South Africa and other European colonies as "first-world enclaves ruling over third-world nations."

How Algeria could reform itself into a more (legally) equal society is an interesting process, but it would be long, complicated, and not without some bloodshed.

You do realize that the Pied Noirs made up only 12% of the population of Algeria in the 1940s? The only reason why they managed to last long is France’s support, and the fact that Algeria national consciousness was minor until after the Second World War. Algeria can easily achieve legal and social equality with most of the population being free from colonialism. Using socialist practices to redistribute wealth wouldn’t be an issue, especially as the A-4 has no reason to object to it. It will be long yes, complicated certainly, but making it needlessly bloodless is ridiculous. If the majority Algeria population says we’re taking over now that France is out of the picture, the Pied Noirs would have no choice. No one powerful will support them, and they just lost the numbers game.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

You do realize that the Pied Noirs made up only 12% of the population of Algeria in the 1940s? The only reason why they managed to last long as a collaborator is France’s support, and the fact that Algeria national consciousness was minor until after the Second World War. Algeria can easily achieve legal and social equality with most of the population being free from colonialism. Using socialist practices to redistribute wealth wouldn’t be an issue, especially as the A-4 has no reason to object to it. It will be long yes, complicated certainly, but making it needlessly bloodless is ridiculous. If the majority Algeria population says we’re taking it over now that France is out of the picture, the Pied Noirs would have no chance. No one powerful will support them, and they just lost the numbers game.

Yes, but could you see right wing reactionaries among the Pied Noirs resisting change through violence? Or would the A4 stomp on that shit hard?

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Yes, but could you see right wing reactionaries among the Pied Noirs resisting change through violence? Or would the A4 stomp on that shit hard?

I guess that OAS-like activities might be repressed and the most pro-Vichy civil servants (OTL, even after Torch, Vichyist administrators repained in their posts, enforcing anti-Semitic laws and even making these stricter, until it was transfered to De Gaulle).

Likewise, I guess the Antoine Porot's Algiers school of colonial psychiatry might get issues with existing after independence.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

I guess that OAS-like activities might be repressed and the most pro-Vichy civil servants (OTL, even after Torch, Vichyist administrators repained in their posts, enforcing anti-Semitic laws and even making these stricter, until it was transfered to De Gaulle).

Likewise, I guess the Antoine Porot's Algiers school of colonial psychiatry might get issues with existing after independence.

I wonder what happens to them under Allied administration?


Yeesh, the TTL story of how Algeria breaks away from this wretched legacy would itself be an interesting TL.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Yes, but could you see right wing reactionaries among the Pied Noirs resisting change through violence? Or would the A4 stomp on that shit hard?

The A4 would stomp on that shit yes.

 

[Lalli]

Whatever sooner or latter to Pied Noir will be told firmly that them have grant equal rights to Arabs and Berbers or else... Yes, some wouldn't ever accept but probably they are small minority and politically very very irrelevant.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

Whatever sooner or latter to Pied Noir will be told firmly that them have grant equal rights to Arabs and Berbers or else... Yes, some wouldn't ever accept but probably they are small minority and politically very very irrelevant.

But would a shift in Pied Noirs' thinking also come of their own volition? Would seeing the evils of racist, bigoted nationalism, particularly in the form of Paris being wiped off a map, force a culture-wide realignment in their attitudes toward Jews and Muslims?

The A4 would stomp on that shit yes.

The question is: would the A4 particularly care, given the greater menace on the other side of the Mediterranean?

 

[Pax_Nihil]

But would a shift in Pied Noirs' thinking also come of their own volition? Would seeing the evils of racist, bigoted nationalism, particularly in the form of Paris being wiped off a map, force a culture-wide realignment in their attitudes toward Jews and Muslims?



The question is: would the A4 particularly care, given the greater menace on the other side of the Mediterranean?

They apparently did.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

The question is: would the A4 particularly care, given the greater menace on the other side of the Mediterranean?

The A4 would care, because racial strife could endanger their logistics and provide Nazi propaganda easy publics to target ("Join the Reich to maintain White supremacy"/"Join the Reich to free your homeland").

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

The A4 would care, because racial strife could endanger their logistics and provide Nazi propaganda easy publics to target ("Join the Reich to maintain White supremacy"/"Join the Reich to free your homeland").

But would the Pied Noirs willingly accept a multicultural society or would they only reform after gunboat diplomacy from the A4?

 

[xxmagex]

Algeria and what became of Pied Noirs was discussed in the original thread. This is a link to the original question on the issue and there are several responses that follow it. I know the thumbnail is of another issue, but it should think you to the discussion if interested.

The Anglo/American - Nazi War

Related to the question of anti-semitism, what's the state of anti-Polish prejudice in the A4 ('stupid polack' jokes, 'Polish death camps,' and the like)? Is there a Polish equivalent to the Anti-Defamation League?

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

Algeria and what became of Pied Noirs was discussed in the original thread. This is a link to the original question on the issue and there are several responses that follow it. I know the thumbnail is of another issue, but it should think you to the discussion if interested.

The Anglo/American - Nazi War

Related to the question of anti-semitism, what's the state of anti-Polish prejudice in the A4 ('stupid polack' jokes, 'Polish death camps,' and the like)? Is there a Polish equivalent to the Anti-Defamation League?

www.alternatehistory.com

OK.

 

[SirCecil]

But would a shift in Pied Noirs' thinking also come of their own volition? Would seeing the evils of racist, bigoted nationalism, particularly in the form of Paris being wiped off a map, force a culture-wide realignment in their attitudes toward Jews and Muslims?

OTL some of the same people who fought Germany in the French resistance turned around and brutalized the Algerians, so I find it unlikely.

 

[Tsar Nicholas The Cringe]

OTL some of the same people who fought Germany in the French resistance turned around and brutalized the Algerians, so I find it unlikely.

As the saying goes: being oppressed doesn’t stop you from oppressing others.

 

[torten]

70 years today since the St Patrick's Day Raid on 17th March 1954.

I imagine that there is memorials in New York and Washington DC to those who were killed.

 

[Retro_Reaction]

There were multiple plans for a federated Algeria. They were stopped because the Pied Noir could use their voting bloc to perform some politicking in the French General Assembly by making a majority government swing this way or that. The loss of the French in Indochina also had an impact on the start of the Algerian War. By the time the French decided that they wanted to act on these federal plans, it was considered to little to late. You'll probably see those plans happen in 1945 as soon as Vichy Declares for Germany.

ITTL, the Pied Noir will probably go for a federal state, backed by the UN military presence in Algeria. I see very little chance for the escalation ITTL that occurred IOTL. Maybe a state like OTL Lebanon.