The Amalingian Empire: The Story of the Gothic-Roman Empire

Sorry for thread clutter, I just had more thoughts and that post was long enough anyway.


I was looking for some Latin practise anyway, so this timeline has inspired me to dig into Jordanes' Getica, which I'm enjoying massively.

Of the goths initial movement from Scandinavia to the Steppe, he mentions that "as Victors, they reached that extreme part of Scythia which is most close to the Pontus sea, and in their ancestral songs in a manner almost of historic rite, this is retold in common". One has to wonder which tellings of this story are handed down to posterity ttl- perhaps ones which maintain more traces of the Gothic paganism of those days? Are there gothic writers who sought to establish Filimer as a sort of Aeneas to Theodorics Romulus? If the Goths accept the idea that the Gaetae were just goths under another name, it's fertile ground for propagandists to bring up how the father of Romulus, Mars himself, was born among them and was said by Vergil to preside over Getic/"Gothic" fields.


I was also reading about "secularism" in the vandal kingdom, and I think the evolution of romano-african identity was probably on its way to transferring allegiance from Rome to the city of Carthage itself. Rather than particularly praising particular kings, the most common focus of praise in Latin epigrams of the time was the city of Carthage itself.
Vandal kings are praised in Latin poetry for patronising baths, not churches, and I think the impulse to publicly support civic projects that don't draw the ire of certain religious groups would remain strong enough that the baths/circuses remain the centre of vandal civic life. Makes me curious to what extent the punic past might be reappropriated in the vandal rulers quest to give ideological backing to their independence- perhaps enough punic manuscripts survive that something of its literature can be recovered. Perhaps enough punic speakers remain in the countryside that certain punic stock phrases become state mottos- I mean sources are so scarce I think you could probably justify the existence of a considerable punic speaking minority in the countryside which could lead to a degree of bilingualism in the elite. Maybe the situation mirrors Coptic in that it's lying mostly dormant for the moment, awaiting the time when literate classes deem it as useful as Latin or Greek for certain purposes. It's all up to our Narrator Praeclarus yknow.

It might be easier for Berbers to learn as well as they're both Semitic and already has a literary tradition and theres probably a good amount of Berber punic bilingualism as well, so Berber elite joining vandal nobility might adopt the punic identity. Talking of Semitic cognates, Augustine mentions that Punic speakers consider themselves purer transmitters of scripture given that there are cognates between it and Hebrew.



I was also surprised to learn that into the 6th century there are Christian inscriptions in Africa commemorating a flamen perpetuus and a sacerdotalis, which apparently implies some (secularised?) Version of the imperial cult surviving. Is that something you'd wanna play with?
 
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I'm more than happy to see this awesome timeline return to form after the regrettably long hiatus. You kept us waiting for long enough after all, especially with the cliffhangers surrounding "Theodoric the Great" in the latest update. In any case, glad to see you back in business :p
 
Chapter 85: Of Sickness, Sorrow and Greatness
Chapter 85:
Of Sickness, Sorrow and Greatness


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Image of relief taken from Amalingian royal mortuary attached to the Holy Family Basilica. Scholars believe it belongs to Prince Theodebert on his death bed. King Thorismund is seen standing while a woman – likely Theodebert’s mother Queen Mahtihildz - sits near by

“And, in the year of our lord, six hundred eighty nine, a great pestilence came upon the people of Ravenna. The sickness rose from the marsh and soon spread amongst the people of the city. The Imperial family was not spared, and soon great mourning gripped the hearts of all in Ravenna.” – The Ravenna Chronicle, 689.


“The Calm Before the Storm: Crisis and Tranquility During the Reign of Thorismund II” Journal of Restoration Era Studies. Volume XXXXVIII Issue 1 (2005)
By: Dr. Harold Smith

Despite the dramatic events which lead to his rise to the purple in the year 683, the reign of Thorismund II has traditionally been overlooked by serious scholarship on Restoration Era Europe. Traditionally damned as the last of the “Do-Nothing” Emperors of the 7th century, he is best known merely as the father of Theodoric II the Fair or, as he has come to be known since the Age of Yearning, the Great. Although it would be impossible to overstate the importance of his son on the subsequent history of the Empire and the Gothic people, it would be unwise to dismiss Thorismund II as merely the sire of his more famous protégé. Indeed, without the attempted reforms which Thorismund instituted within the Empire, as well as the extended period of peace he inaugurated, it would have been impossible for his heir to have attained the Icarusian heights he later reached.

Thorismund first entered Gothic history with his arrival in Ravenna during the waning days of the reign of Amalamir II – known to posterity as “the Foolish.” His struggles against the raiding party of Sigbert, King of the Franks, had forced his withdrawl from his lands in Burgundy to seek the the aid of the Emperor. Although Amalamir was initially receptive to his distant cousin, it soon became obvious that he was unable or unwilling to lend substantial support – a fact which underlined the Emperor’s inability to secure the borders of the Empire. The death of Thorismund’s third wife in childbirth, while being held as a captive of the Frankish King, galvanized opposition to Amalmir’s weak reign and would see the upstart named Emperor by an angry mob which stormed the imperial palace. Finding the Emperor dead, seemingly by his own hand, Thorismund was declared the ruler of the Empire by the acclaim of the of the mob as well as the assorted noblemen then in the capitol.

Despite the questionable manner in which he attained the throne, Thorismund would remain popular with not only the people, but also his nobles, throughout the length of his eleven year reign. Although he wasn’t afraid to use violence to bring peace to the realm, as shown by his execution of the anti-Pratorian Prefect Sextus as well as his sporadic campaigns against the Franks, Thorismund preferred to negotiate and build a coalition of allies within the realm. This can be seen in early 684 when working with those Senators who wished to deny him the Imperial crown, when he met with key leaders of the opposition and, if Sigisbairht the Frodgibands is to be believed, won them over with words alone. Although it shouldbe noted that the assassination of Athaneric a mere five years earlier had made the Senate politically vulnerable, and the opposition Thorismund faced would have been considerably less than faced by some of his immediate predecessors.

Having already won martial glory, and having paid the price for it with the death of his wife and unborn son, Thorismund proved to be far more concerned with administrative details and reforms than many previous Emperors. Hardly a pacifist, as witnessed by the three campaigns he conducted against the Franks, he still seems to have determined the the Empire and its finances were in no condition to conduct a major offensive campaign. And so he turned towards a number of policies which were meant to generate income, building a nest egg and funneling moneys into the army to prepare it for use by future Emperors.

The biggest financial issue faced by the Emperor was the general poverty of his own household. For generations now, one of the chief struggles of any Emperor was the liquidity of his own finances – the need to grant lands to followers, as well the tradition which emerged during the Kunis Wars of granting lands and titles to all Amaling princes, had greatly depleted the Emperor’s personal lands. Although many of these land grants had initially not been in perpetuity, reverting to the Emperor upon the death of the grantee, the Fourth Punic War and the previously mentioned Kunis Wars had changed this. During the course of the 7th century, we see more land grants being made hereditary – though this was needed to keep the loyalty of the imperial dynasty, as well as the nobility, the effect was to increasingly deplete the personal holdings of the Emperor. Making matters even worse, the 7th century had seen the Empire increasingly hemmed in by neighboring states, making expansion and the acquisition of new lands difficult. Though the Goths would continue to raid some neighbors to accrue wealth – Gothic-Frankish relations had descended into a series of raids and counter raids by this point – not enough was gained to truly solve the problem. [FN1] And even these raids grew less frequent as Gaelic rauthering raiders showed the weakness of the imperial defenses.

Luckily for Thorismund, his ascension saw him acquiring the imperial fiefdoms to which he added his prior Burgundian lands – though he was forced to grant lands in Fruili to his adopted son Athanagild in 687. [FN2] This was essential in helping to fund the early stages of his initial reforms, as well as the three punitive raids against the Franks. However, the early years of his reign would still be marked by the financial insecurities which had also plagued his immediate predecessors. The coffers would be so weakened, especially as the dreadful raids into Jaille badly undercut expected revenue from these lands, that Thorismund was forced to travel to Rome and personally request an increase in taxes from the Roman Senate. This was granted after some debate, with the Emperor forced to agree to a number of appointments by the Senate as well as some minor adjustments to the borders of regions under Senatorial control.

These tense negotiations were an unusual, but necessary, incident during the reign of an Emperor who largely enjoyed good relations with the Roman Senate. It seems likely that they convinced Thorismund that he should not push his luck – the fate of Athaneric would have been on the minds of all involved – and would need to seek income from other venues. Though he would also move to increase the tax on the Valachs within the Gothic regions of the Empire, Thorismund would largely move away from increasing the taxes on his subjects – many would have difficulty paying due to the ill-events of the past several years in any case, and the chance of undermining his own popularity and authority was too great.

Turning away from increasing the taxation of his subjects, Thorismund would invest in a number of reforms. First of these was an overhauling of the imperial beaurocracy. Since the reign of Theodebert II, the beaurocracy had gone into decline – its posts often being handed out not to the most capable of candidates, but instead to the second and third sons of noble families hoping to secure an income. Usually after a donation to the imperial coffers. Making matters worse, the Fourth Punic War and Kunis Wars had witnessed the erosion of the Imperial system in Jaille and, to a lesser extent, Spania – meaning that it was only fully functioning within the Gothic lands as well as Senatorial Italy. As posts were not handed out by merit, or even necessarily need, the system became bloated over the course of the 7th century.

Thorismund sought to overhaul the system. Accepting for the time being, that the infrastructure had deteriorated outside of Italy and Gothia, the Emperor began to cut down on the bloat, dismissing unnecessary aapointments and setting new rules to make sure that future appointees would be competent. This would pay off in time, as the Empire’s finances began to climb out of the defict that they had been in – leaving a substantial war chest at the time of Thorismund’s death in 695.

The Emperor’s next reform was to attempt to increase trade, particularly within the cities of Ravenna as well as Oderzo and the growing port of Venice, hoping to strengthen the Gothic cities’ commercial ties with the Rhomanians. [FN3] These efforts would prove fruitful, and would lead to an increase in trade connections that would survive until the years of the Ruination and recover again after the end of that series of conflicts. Since trade goods faced taxation on entry, thereby circumventing the custom of not taxing Goths, this increase in trade had an immediate and noticeable impact on the Empire’s finances as well as on the capital city of Ravenna.

Of course, the increase in trade would have one unfortunate side effect which was soon to plunge the Imperial Family into despair …

“The Emergence of Malaria in the Northeast Gothreik during the Restoration Era,” The Journal of Medical History vol. XXXXVIIII (2004)
By: Dr. Goiswintha Hundsmeister




The first recorded instance of what is thought to be endemic malaria in the west-central region of Italy occurred in the city of Graviscae, as recounted by the Cato the Elder. It seems likely that the spread of malaria to the region occurred roughly during the third and second centuries BCE. The malaria in Graciscae, as well as the mosquitos which carried it, most likely reached the community by sea – either from Sardinia or North Africa where it had already been present for centuries. Whenever, or however, the establishment of the disease occurred, however, it quickly became closely associated with the city of Rome itself, gaining the names “Roman Fever” and “The Roman Disease.”

During the Classical Era, the connection between malaria and mosquitoes had been well documented. However, by the Restoration Era, a growing consensus was that malaria was transmitted by bad air coming from the marshes and bogs which surrounded the city of Rome and many of its neighbors. These swamps had long been an issue, a no less figure that Julius Caesar himself had once planned to drain them and convert the marshes into viable farmland. The plan died with his assassination and would take over a millennium and a half for the the Pontine Marshes to be finally drained.



What is fascinating, however, is that despite the prevalence of Malaria in the city of Rome itself, it would take centuries for the disease to reach the northeastern corners of the Italian peninsula. The first known outbreak in the Gothic capitol of Ravenna, for instance, would not occur the year 698 – despite the fact that, much like Rome, Ravenna was surrounded by marshlands which were the perfect breeding ground for mosquitoes. Even more intriguing, when genetic testing was conducted many centuries later, it was found that the malaria strain common in the region was the same found in the Eastern Mediterranean and not that found further South in Rome. This gives credance to the popular legend that malaria had arrived in Ravenna on a ship from the Rhomanian lands to the East … [FN4]

“The Calm Before the Storm: Crisis and Tranquility During the Reign of Thorismund II” Journal of Restoration Era Studies. Volume XXXXVIII Issue 1 (2005)
By: Dr. Harold Smith



The pestilence of the Summer of 689 would prove to be the greatest crisis to face Thorismund II during his reign. Although the disease was quickly identified as the “Roman Fever” – today known as malaria – treatments were spotty at best and whatever edical resources were available were soon overburdened by the sheer agnitude of the outbreak. Wealthy Goths soon began to flee the city for landed estates in the healthier countryside, but the poor of the city had nowhere to go and so were forced to remain. The Emperor was urged to flee as well, but initially refused, not wanting to be seen leaving his people to suffer from the contagion while he sought safety. According to Sigisbaihrt the Frothiband, Thorismund did eventually accept sending his wives and children to Burgundy, but by the time the decision was made, it was too late and the dread pathogen had already made itself felt within the imperial household.

The first to catch the illness was Thorismund’s eldest son and heir, Theodebert. Later artistic depictions would cast Theodebert as a child, but in reality he was an adult, likely in his mid-20s The prince had been groomed by his Father since assuming the emperorship and the Ga-run had officially voted him as co-emperor just a year earlier. Church bells cried out for the young man, and despite the efforts of the city government to establish an quarantine, masses were held for Theodebert’s eventual recovery. Sadly, it was not to be – the prince passed away some days later while his Father and Queen Mahtihildz looked on in sorrow.

He would not be the last. Mahtihildz, the Emperor’s first wife, would soon contract the illness and pass away – her death taking, we are told, less than twenty four hours from the passing of her eldest son. Fearing for the lives of the children, Queen Theodosia would claim that the illness stemmed from the Emperor’s greed and his raising of taxes – she ordered the imperial tax rolls to be bought into the palace and burnt, with family and courtiers walking through the smoke to purify themselves. It did little good and soon even the Emperor himself fell ill in early August and lingering on death’s door until his fever broke roughly a week later.

He awoke from his fever to the crushing loss of much of his family. Of his four wives, three had been felled by the illness – only Theodosia, the sister of his predecessor, was left. Thorismund had once possessed an expansion family with seven children – now he had only three left. In addition to the lose of Theodebert, he had also lost Ermenberga, his young daughter who had been a particular favorite of his.

Grief stricken, the usually spend-thirft Emperor, ordered the construction of the Bascilica of the Holy Family, which stands to this day, as a monument to his lost loved ones. Thorismund did not live to see its completion, though he did oversee the transferring of the bodies of his wives and children to it – laying them under the new altar. Though previously, Gothic Emperors had been laid to rest within the catacombs of the Hagia Anastasis, Thorismund requested that upon his death he be placed next to his beloved family – thus beginning a tradition which would be joined by Theodoric II and many other members of the gothic royalty until the collapse of the Empire.

The Emperor’s grief was matched by the citizens of the city of Ravenna, which is said to have lost between 5-10 percent of it’s population during the malaria outbreak. Malaria would continue to be an issue which would curse the imperial capital for centuries to come, but rarely would outbreaks be so devastating – save for one at the height of the Ruintation but a few decades later. Although Queen Theodosia blamed the outbreak upon her husband’s greed in pushing for higher taxes, this does not appear to be a theory that was entertained by many of the city’s residents. Indeed, the devastation of his loss and his refusal to hide the grief which plagued him, convinced him that he was one of their own. Though Thorismund would gain the epitath “The Sorrowful,” this was given not as an offense, but rather a badge of honor – showing the deep respect the people had for him due to his losses, and their understanding that he was a fellow traveler on that dark road as well. Eventually, long after his death, the Arian Church would codify Thorismund as the patron saint of grieving, and his cult remains popular to this very day.

The malaria outbreak had shaken the capitol city and the imperial faily to its foundations. Whereas, the deeply loved and respected Theodebert had been his father’s heir prior to the outbreak, the weight of that role now fell upon young Theodoric. Only eleven years old at the time of the outbreak, he had lost two older brothers, his Mother and witnessed the long illness of his father. He himself had come down ill, but only briefly – a fact which filled him with guilt, according to his biography Witteric – and made a full recovery. Contemporary descriptions state that he bore an uncanny resemblance to his eldest brother, as well as his father, and the people of the city used to call him “Little Theodebert” as a result. His survival not only made him the heir apparent, but also the object of near religious devotion by the citizenry of Ravenna. Witteric states that, “Rather than allow his survival and adoration to fill him with pride, it instead made him humble – he knew not why he had been allowed to survive, but he felt that God had spared him for some purpose. Still, he also understood that the Good Lord could take his life in a moment, as he had done to far more deserving men than him. And so he vowed to not fear death, bur rather to live his life as best he could, in service of the Empire, the People and the Church.”



Thorismund never fully recovered from the death of much of his family. Already in his later 50s when the malaria outbreak began, the disease broke his health. Though he recovered, we are told that he plagued by maladies for the remaining six years of his life. More and more, he turned his attention to those who would follow him – he built up the imperial finances so that future emperors would be able to protect and expand the realm, and took to the training of his son Theodoric personally. The Emperor and his heir appear to have enjoyed a strong relationship, though it was tainted by the sorrow which united them – that of an old man who had survived his own children, and a child who had witnessed the death of his elders. His one vanity was the construction of the Church of the Holy Family to which he would dedicate himself during every spare moment – his love of the Church would be passed onto his son, and Theodoric would spend much of his own life embellishing it and bringing the construction to completion.

Thorismund would die in the year 695. Despite the tragedy which consumed the second half of his reign, he left the Empire in a far stronger economic and military situation than he had found it. He also gave care of the realm to a 17 year old son who he had personally trained and raised in the arts of statesmanship and rule. That son would soon overshadow his Father – but the triumphs and tragedies of Theodoric the Fair would not have been possible without the effots of his sorrowful father. [FN5]

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[FN1] ‘Descended.’ For long-time readers, it shouldn’t be a surprise that Gothic-Franklish relations can just be seen as a prolonged Blood Feud which began a century and a half earlier with the killing of Clovis in battle by Theodemir the Great. Although the currentl ruling dynasty of the Franks are not Merovings (that family is quite extinct), the two peoples could not be said to have ever really enjoyed friendly relations. When the Gothic Empire is strong, it can effestively vassalize the Frankreich, but the second it shows even the smallest weakness, the Franks throw off the yoke and revert to a level of hostile independence. And yes, this isn’t going to change for the better any time soon – in fact, it’s about to get worse.

[FN2] Athanagild is Amalamir II’s son. Thorismund adopted him and married his Mother upon the death of Amalamir, to help smooth over any negative feelings of his oddly successful, yet unintended, coup. Because of this – and because Thorismund II is actually a pretty good sort – he grants his adopted son land when the boy reaches maturity.

[FN3] Thanks to the lack of the devastating Gothic Wars and the Lobardo invasion, Ordezo is not destroyed time and time again. However, Venice is beginning to grow as the ‘marsh dwellers’ consolidate their communities – and it will eventually come to dwarf the older Roman community in influence. Though this is sometime in the future.

[FN4] This is largely as in OTL, believe it or not – Malaria did not spread to Ravenna and Venetia until the early medieval period, and when it did arrive, it appears to have come by trade from the East – the malaria strains present in the region, until its irradication, was the same strain as present in the Levant and Greecce, and not the strain present in Rome. Before I started this chapter, I would have had no idea about this – it’s amazing the things you learn while working on a timeline!

[FN5] And we are BACK! For a long time I struggled with how to tell the story of Thorismund II – he was a man who came to the throne almost by chance and who I saw as someone who would always be eclipsed by his more famous son. But then I realized that that was kind of the point – whatever is set to happen to Theodoric could never have come to pass after the chaos of the last few Emperors without a steady hand preceeding him. Sadly, since I had already hinted at the illness, I also had to put the poor man and his family through the ringer – the outbreak was always going to be central to his tale. In any case, I hope I crafted a reasonable and realistic man in Thorismund, while hinting at some of the deeds of his son; setting the stage for the wild wide that is ahead of us. Because a number of things I’ve been foreshadowing since the very beginning are going to start coming into play, and I really really hope I’ve done a good enough job describing the state of the Empire and its neighbors to set the stage for what is to come.

Hope everyone enjoyed this, and sorry for it being a few days later than I had thought. It was an absolutely trainwreck of a week over here, unfortunately (though, luckily, writing this helped me blow off some steam, so that is good). I know there were a few posts made before I updated this and I apologize for not getting around to answering them yet. I will be doing so over the next day or two. As always, though, any questions, comments, rants or the like are always welcome - and thank you, once again, for sticking with me during that unplanned 1.5 year absence! :)
 
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Well I just so happen to have had a lot of time on trains today, and I'm done with a full re read!

First things first I want to praise you for the richness of the characters you've presented us- Adela, Amalamir and Amalaric in the Kuni wars were very compelling personalities.

The Caoimhe cycle was also very fun to read, and I loved how much it felt like every single one of those characters pops up in other stories. I hope that when the Theuts come along we get a good mythic cycle out of them as well, hopefully with some more fantastical elements.

Thank you! That entire cycle of stories started as a fun little aside which I figured would be possible a chapter or two, and it quickly mushroomed into ... a thing.

Having said that, you can expect that I will definitely be digging into the myths and tales of the Theut when they arrive - I can assure you that we will be seeing their beginnings and my love of mythology, folklore and the like makes it almost a certainty that we'll delve into such topics with them.

I do have a couple things I wanna talk about, raise for discussion etc, some are continuity some are just random thoughts.
First let's get through the bits which can stand as independent points-


At one point though you make reference to Saharan sands- without an Arabic conquest of North Africa at some point, I don't see a reason why in universe translators would call the Sahara by the Arabic name. I can't find what the Romans called the Sahara though, so if anyone can help on that that would be cool.

This is a great point! To be honest, I'm not always up on the etymology of different geographic names, so I have a tendency of just defaulting to what we call them in OTL - unless I either discover an alternative that makes sense (such as when I read once that the usual evolution of Gaul would give us *Jaille - and that was way too cool not to use) or when a reader points something out; such as the fact that 'Libya' was a good alternative to the name Africa for the continent.

I've done a bit of digging and it looks like the Romans really didn't have an alterantive name for the Sahara - though they did sometimes use description terms such as the "Desolate Sea", so I might work with something like that. Or if there is a native Berber name I could go with. I'll have to think about this.

At one point you say:

"Lachtna said. “For the Gaels will drain an ocean of wine before this night is done. Never before have I seen a folk drink as they; even Thor himself would be unable to out drink as they"

The Celtic Caoimhe cycle has a proverbial reference to Thor? How much does Theutish mythology worm itself into these epics??

Well, it's important to reember that the Caoimhe cycle as we read it was not an original Gaelic epic (though it would exist) but instead a *modern retelling of the stories aimed at older children. I took a lot of inspiration from the books of Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc myths that I used to read as a kid. And so its likely that the author, who would be fairly knowledgable about Nordic myths, would slip something in to this otherwise Celtic tale.

Now, having said that - there would certainly be a good deal of cross-cultural interactions between the two peoples, and this will have some interesting influences of their stories and religion.

Amalamirs rage at the Avar duplicity got a chuckle out of me- the way you described his anger made me think he might go the way of Valens, who had a stroke in the middle of a shouting tirade while berating goths.

I had a good time writing that bit :)

You've said a few times that you see the dominant form of Arabic in the Manichean communities being a descendant of Sabaean or a south Arabian language in general. This doesn't really fit with the names you've given, which are all very *Quranic Arabic, and most definitely don't have the south Arabian post posed article. Arabic Al-Rahman, South Arabian Rahmanan. I think given the strength of the poetic koine that would give rise to Quranic Arabic in the 6th century already, it kinda comes out of left field to have it be replaced by south Arabian which had been on the decline for centuries.

And that's fair - to be perfectly honest, I was in a bit of a bind with that one. I felt that since the heart of this Arabic religious movement is Yemen, it made sense for the language of that region to gain in prestige. However, as you've stated, the language in OTL declined pretty quickly and I wasn't able to find any sources relating to it - couple with the fact that I am certainly no linguist - kinda lead to default to 'standard' Arabic names and terms when I needed them. However, if the decline of Southern Arabic was already going on at that point, it might make more sense just to have standard Arabic become the dominant language of the region in the ATL as well.


On the Senate:

"Leading members of the political rebellion included members of the Anicia family, who remained powerful nobles in both the East and the West."

This is from chapter 19. One thing that I do want to flag up is that as evidenced here, the senatorial class in the east and west is the *same families*- in fact the gens Anicia you mention here was related maternally to the then current emperor Germanus. These are the same people, who will move to whichever half of the empire offers better career prospects- a system which otl collapsed in the Gothic wars. There was an offhand comment somewhere that the Romano-Persian wars that were analogous to otls 602-628 saw the eastern empire switch to Greek- I don't think this is possible because the senatorial class must remain able to work in Italy. Also if Italian senators are allowed to muster armies, as you confirmed, I think they'd definitely use them to help the east- if a senator knows that their brother who lives in Constantinople is being taxed mountains because of a war, they'd probably try and help end that war. Forget that, the same senator probably owns a villa in thrace, Hispania, Egypt and Sicily, and he'll want to protect his investment. The Italian senatorial class has the power to do that, so I think would definitely be helping out against the Avars and Slavs. For the east then, this is a brilliant situation as italy doesn't need defending but can still raise troops. Because of this, and as well because the Latin speaking regions such as moesia haven't been lost, the east is a much more Latin beast than otl.

I want to unpack some of this. First, you are completely correct that the Senatorial class in both the East and the West are the same families (by and large - there would be some which would exist largely in one half or another, but the most prominent families would be powerful in both). And yes, Senators can raise armies - however, its important to remember that the Emperor in the West still has overall command of the army - the Empire hasn't grown that decentralized yet. This, coupled with the fact that the West since the reign of Emperor Theodebert has been more politically unstable with rebellions, raids and the occasional invasion, means that any Emperor would be less than willing to waste manpower and allow Senator X to rush over to give assistance to his Rhomanian cousin. This isn't to say that it can't happen, or that it never does, but it does create a situation where isn't not common either.

I also think it's a more religiously unified beast- monophysites and chalcedonians may differ on a lot but they're at the very least monogamous nicenes- both sides would be a lot more willing to compromise given Arianism as a constant and present threat. All these factors combined with the fact that even though Anastasius and Justin left the empire with a sizable budget surplus, and Justinian never wasted it on reconquest, the east hasn't been particularly aggressive, just makes me think the east has spent that budget on building projects and lower taxes- it must be so much more prosperous than otl. Nevertheless, I do foresee it being a major priority for eastern emperors to kick the Avars out, and maybe even take Pannonia- it would explain the fact that you mention *Slovenes receive Christianity from the Orthodox if an army from Constantinople has just conquered the gepid state.

Despite this, Im not saying that it's implausible that the Persians and Belisarius so quickly conquered Egypt and anatolia- that's just the way late Roman armies worked, in that one defeat leaves open vast chunks of the empire until such time as the army can re coordinate.

Also:

"This, despite the fact that it is likely that no Senatorial families of any standing survived Frithunanths I’s purges following the Fall of Rome."

Unless the east is also affected by this purge, those same families will be clamouring for revenge.

Oh, yes. Yes indeed. That is going to have some major, and longlasting, effects upon the relations between the East and the West. *chuckles evily*


Also:

"Consul Aquila Marcini" given the senatorial class is the same in both halves of the empire and the tria nómina system is... More present there even otl, I think it probably would make sense for it to continue in Italy- perhaps "Flavius Marcinus Aquila"

Oh wait sorry, you confirmed this later on my bad:
"fact that late-Roman surnames continued amongst the Senatorial class of Italy when they were dropped in the rest of the Latin world is but one example of this influence. "



My take on this is that even otl, before the pod, the vandal court had adopted Latin as a language of literature- there was a flowering of Latin poetry based in Africanitas, where the Vandals used the Latin language to position themselves as successors of Carthage. Additionally, given that the actual Bible itself is identical in Arianism and Nicene Christianity, the Latin Vulgate was used by the Arian vandals, and I don't see why they would switch to the Gothic Bible, which of course wasnt ever their language. I think the same situation probably exists with the Lombards- they're unable to mimic theodemirs two state solution, so would likely latinise very quickly under the influence of their Dalmatian Roman subjects.

I can understand Gothreike proper having been gothicised as a result of ethnic cleansing, strict use of gothic in law and religion etc, but I don't think those conditions exist anywhere else. Apart from in Gothreike, especially in formerly Roman provinces, it just makes sense for the Arian church to continue to use Latin.

As you know, I've gone back and forth about the linguistic fate of the Vandals and you bring up some points that are making me even more convinced that they end up speaking African Romance with a substrate of Eastern Germanic and Berber. Which is a shame - I really had wanted to see another Eastern Germanic language take hold; but we've got the Gothic varieties and Gepid that will survive up to the modern period (as well as any daughter languages which may spring from them) so no need to get greedy on my part :)

Much as Dal Caoimhe remaining Celtic would be cool, I definitely don't see how they would resist latinising considering they even share the orthodox faith of the Baeticans.

I've actually given the Gaelicization of Dal Caoimhe a lot of thought, and believe that the scenerio that will emerge will make a fair bit of sense. On a side note - it's important to remember that though the Romans in Spania and the Gaels are both Orthodox, their rites would still have some significant differences. And though the learned members of both would certainly understand that they share the same general faith, that doesn't meant that there aren't enough divergences to cause a significant amount of a conflict.

On Arian unity:

"With the support of the state behind them, the Gothic Church soon became the predominant Arian Church in the West, and the Churches of the Vandals, Bavarians, Allemani, Avars, and Gepids came to acknowledge its primacy of place over them"

As I mentioned before, the Vandals always used Latin in their Arian Christianity, and have an older church structure- so this seems like something they wouldn't take lying down. Especially given the insistence on polygamy within the Gothic using Arian church, I expect the more romanised Latin Arian churches to anathematise this as heretical.

Yes, I exect the primacy of Ravenna to be questioned significantly by Carthage and for the latter Church to do it's best to retain it's independance (certainly more so than the other Arian Churches). However, I'm not entirely sure that the polymagy would be as big of an issue - first, the Vandals likely practice it themselves, at least amongst their upper classes, secondly even in OTL the Merovingians practiced it and this never seems to have seriously called thier Orthodoxy into question (and the Catholic faith of that era would have been opposed to it).


On the Vlachs/Romans of Hispania and Jaille:

Do these guys count as Vlachs? No right? Because Sixtus and Bishop Honorius and Eugenius make it seem like the Praetorian Prefects of Jaille and Hispania are much friendlier to the orthodox than the situation in Gothreike proper. As seen with Dal Caoimhe as well, much of their nobility is orthodox (and maybe merging with the senatorial class of Italy/the empire- you did mention that some Italian senators have holdings in Spain, indicating that the Spanish nobility is already going through that process)- this seems like a very unstable religious situation, ripe for intrigue and meddling. The vandals aren't on good terms with the goths, so I think still very well may end up going Nicene under influence from Italy/Constantinople/Dal Caoimhe, but any such move by a Praetorian prefect is asking for a full on war with Ravenna. How then do they manage the religious divisions in their administration? Perhaps a war with Ravenna is worth it to avoid the religious disputes that tore otl Byzantium apart.

There are distinct issues between the Vandals and the Goths and points of tension (the fact that the Vandals continue to have the biggest navy in the East and control over Sardinia and Corsica is a problem for the Goths). However, the 4th Punic War was over 80 years prior, the Vandals are having issues maintaining control over their periphery (as hinted at in the Caoimhe cycle), and the Goths themselves have been rather preoccupied with their own internal issues and their focus on Western Europe.

And yes, Vlachs would technically be the Latin residents within the Gothic lands. Latin speakers in Jaille and Hispania have more rights and the Edict of Tolerance issues of Theodemir still holds up, leaving the Orthodox Church a lot of freedom in ministering to it's peoples (though, as we've established, there isn't really full equality - being Arian comes with some very real benefits within the Empire - but there's no purges or outright oppression going on).

Will this situation continue to be stable in the future? That remains to be seen - but I suspect that it will be playing a part in the Ruination!


This makes me bring up some thoughts on Romanitas as an ethnic identity. For many in the 4th/5th century, Romanos vocitant nostrae homines religionis. The men of our religion are called Romans. All of our Nicene sources make the distinction of Roman/Barbarian essentially the same as Nicene/Arian, Christian/Pagan. But Arianism itself sprung up in a Roman context, and Theoderic quoted Theodosius to the Jews of Genoa- for him Arian Christianity meant Romanitas. Would a Latin noble in TTL Hispania who converts to Arianism be able to see Arianism as Romanitas? Would he be seen as turning goth, or is it just a different way to be Roman?

I would say that a Spanish noble who converted to Arianism would likely be seen as 'going Goth.' Orthodoxy would by this point be very closely connected to 'Roman' identity.
I do think though that the references to TTL modern Italia and Naples as states come despite the fact that the inhabitants of these states at the very least identified as Roman for a lot longer than otl.

Yes, the Roman identity remains strong longer, but it will eventually breakdown - in fact, that writings to Romanos a few chapters back suggest that this is starting to happen slowly, though regionalism hasn't come anywhere near to the point undermining the Pan-Roman identity yet.
 
Why did the *Church tolerate polygamy?

In OTL? I suspect it was out of pragmatism - The Church needed the Merovings as a counter-weight to the Arian (usually) Lombards and of course the Byzantines. They would have figured that though multiple marriages went against Roman tradition and Church teachings, it wasn't enough to be a deal breaker - after all, they could understand that the Merovings did so largely to create alliances and due to cultural tradition - and that it was something they could afford to take some time with.

In the ATL? The Western Orthodox Church most certainly doesn't. However, they aren't the Imperial cult here (at least in the West) and so they are limited as to what they can do about it. There would have been anti-polgymy factions in the Arian Church as well - but that Church has been thoroughly Gothicized over the past two centuries to the point that the Church is now reflecting Gothic cultural expectations (and yes, the Goths have also adopted many Roman cultural traits as well - one can't have two cultures living this close to one another without their being cultural diffusion - but monogamy isn't one of the things they picked up) and codifying them.
 
A lovely update that was setting the stage for the in-universe future, particularly regarding the accumulation of wealth into the royal treasury before the ascension of Theoderic the Great. The canonization of St. Thorismund the Sorrowful also excited me for more such "minor" developments in the Church of the Goths, but we'll see what you have in store for us. In any case, great to see this cornerstone of this forum return to its old shape!
 
A lovely update that was setting the stage for the in-universe future, particularly regarding the accumulation of wealth into the royal treasury before the ascension of Theoderic the Great. The canonization of St. Thorismund the Sorrowful also excited me for more such "minor" developments in the Church of the Goths, but we'll see what you have in store for us. In any case, great to see this cornerstone of this forum return to its old shape!

Thanks! I've never considered this tielien to be a cornerstone of the forum before, so thank you for that high praise!

And yes, I like to throw some minor religious events in there from time to time as it makes the universe seem more lived in - I figure that the Arians certainly believe in the Community of Saints like their Orthodox cousins and due to the close relationship between the Church and the Amalingian dynasty, several members of the dynasty and it's cadet branches end up being honored with sainthood.

All of which is telling me I really need to read a few books on early medieval sainthood and try to work in a few updates about all of this :) (one of the good things about this timeline is its been forcing me to engage with topics I don't usually cover. The history of malaria, for instance, in this very chapter. So it's forcing me out of my cofort zone constantly. So, looks liek I may have to bone up on my theology eventualy ;) )
 
Chapter 86 Heroes Always Get Remembered (Part 1: The Saga of Emperor Theodoric II)
Chapter 86
Heroes Always Get Remembered (The Saga of Emperor Theodoric II, Part 1)


Pepin_le_Bref.jpg

Artistic Depiction of the Coronation of Theodoric II


Ravenna, September 695 AD

The crash of the crowd was disconcerting, seeming to both overwhelm and add to the cacophony within his own heart. It was all so much, almost too much, he thought, for any man to handle – but he had to try.

“My Lord, we’re ready”

Theodoric nodded to the man, took a deep breath, and stepped forward to the large shield that was waiting for him. He planted hs feet firmly – this was no time to lose his balance and fall – and waited as the attendants lifted him high over their shoulders. [FN1]

If the noise had been overpowering before, it now became almost unbearable. As the young Emperor was hoisted up by his attendants for all to see, the crowd broke out in cries of jubilation. There were a smattering of screams of “God Save the Emperor,” and “Long Live the Emperor” but the majority of Ravenna’s citizens seemed to settle on simply screaming his name. “Theodoric! Theodoric!” they called out to him, to God, and to no one in particular.

A grimace griefly crossed Theodoric’s face, before he caught himself and smoothed his features. There were too many watching, and far much to lose by being seen as displeasing of the mass of humanity before him. And, anyway, it wasn’t really that anyway: his brain just had trouble coming to terms with the loud noises, the light of the sun, and every other stimulation that was currently sending his senses into overdrive. He practiced his breathing for a few moments until the feelings passed – a technique he had taught himself as a child – and then forced a broad, beaming smile onto his face as he extended his hand out in a wave.

“God help me get through this,” he thought to himself, hoping that the Father or the Divine Son would hear him and show kindness.

It was interesting. He had been preparing for this moment for years and thought he was ready. He had always understood, in some nebulous way, that he would only be standing here following the death of his own father – and he had recognized that this would be sad. But he had always imagined that he would feel a sense of pride as he was carried through the crowd to his coronation, a sense of accomplishment – though for what, he could not say. Surviving? In his family that did seem to be an accomplishment, after the death of his older brothers and mother, but no, that was too base. He had thought his accomplishment would be in being found worthy to stand in the shadow of his illustrious ancestors who had been carried upon the shield into history.

Now he thought the accomplishment he would treasure the most was in making it through this hell, without falling from the shield and landing on his ass, or bursting out crying. He was seventeen years old, a man, but the main thoughts that ran through his mind was that he missed his father so badly that it physically hurt. The man had always been his hero, the solid foundation that he knew would hold when the storms swept over his family. The elder Emperor had suffered greatly these past years, but he had always seemed so stable, so calm, so eternal. When Theodoric pondered the Face of God, the image in his mind bore more than a little resemblance to Thorismund.

Watching that great statue of a man wither and subcome to his final illness had been shocking. It was more than sad, it somehow seemed unnatural, abhorant … wrong. And yet it had happened, and here Theodoric stood, facing the crowd, balanced precarious on this shield. He knew without any uncertainty that he was a child. He was far too young to be here, and he half hoped that if he closed his eyes and wished very very hard, that when he opened them again he would wake up and find that this had all been some terrible dream.

He had even tried it earlier today. Yes, he felt foolish as he did so, but he also knew that he had to try. It hadn’t worked. Obviously. Emperor Thorismund the Second, already being called “the Sorrowful” by his worshipful citizens, was truly dead. And he, Theodoric the Second, (“the scared,” “the unworthy,” his mind whispered until he told that particular voice to quiet itself) stood upon a shield, being carried to the Patriarch of Ravenna to have his reign blessed.

Luckily, he knew his part well – his Father had prepared him for just this moment. As his attendants made their way towards the still unfinished edifice of the Church of the Holy Family, the crowd parted to let them through. Theodoric reached into a heavy sack by his wide, reached in and pulled out a collection of coins – copper, silver and even a few gold – and hurled them into the crowd like a sower of seeds. The crowd grew more excited, and in a few places, scuffles broke out between particularly enthusiastic – or poor- supporters; but the fights never grew beyond this. Theodoric’s entourage had amongst it some of the most powerful Reiks of the Empire as well as their retainers – any disruption of the public order would be stopped immediately. But more than that, it was because the people loved him - the Boy Who Survived had become the Man of the Hour – and didn’t wish to spoil the moment for him with needless bloodshed. Well, at least, too much.

As they reached the steps of the unfinished Church, Theodoric saw the Atta decked out in his finest crimson robes – a near match to the imperial purple he was decked out in – waiting to receive him. The crowd surged behind him and his entourage as they neared. Finally his attendants slowly placed the shield on the ground and the new Emperor took a few shaking and unsteady steps as he grew used, once again, to terra firma. He breathed a sign of relief, having passed the first test without humiliating himself.

“God be with me,” he muttered and then added, “And you too, Father,” as he climbed the first step.

He was Theodoric the Second of the Western Roman Empire. No longer “The Boy Who Lived,” and not yet “The Fair,” or “The Great,” of later history. Ahead of him would be one of the most celebrated reigns of any Gothic Emperor since Theodemir. He would remake the map of Europe – sometimes, often even, in ways that he had not and could not have foreseen. He would usher in a cultural renaissance which, for all of it’s berevity, would be real and vibrant. Over a thousand years after his death, his name would still be known, and there would be those who truly believed that he slept, awaiting the time of his people’s greatest need, to come again.

But all of that was ahead of him. And on this, unseasonable chill, September day in the year of our lord Six hundred and nintety-five, Theodoric was a scared boy trying to act like the man he knew his father had wanted him to be, and terrified of letting him down.

Theodoric would never look back upon his coronation with fond memories.

The Life of Theodoric the Fait
By: Witteric Un-tals [FN2]
Translated and Edited by: Athelrad Edwardson
London: National University of Sexland Publishing, 1982

Introduction:

Some eighteen years ago, I published my dissertation, a new translatin and scholarly edition of Wulfila Strabo’s masterful biography of Theodemir the Great. Much has changed in that time personally; I took a position at the University of Obar Dheathain in the Kingdom of Gaelland as a scholar of the History of the Restoration Era and Restoration Era Literature, met my wife, and welcomed into this world three beautiful children. I also published numerous articles and several monographs on different areas of Restoration Gothic history. I have been lucky to be become seen as an expert on this fascinating era in both the Sexish and Gaelic speaking worlds – especially after the publication of “A Popular History of the Gothic-Roman Emire” some six years ago.

So why now does it seem that I’m returning to the well, so-to-speak, by publishing a translation of Witteric Un-Tals’ “Life of Theodoric the Fair?” Partially this is because the time is right – the last Sexish-language edition of Witteric was published nearly fifty years ago by the esteemed Dr. Cuthbert Baker, and has long been the standar for those who want to read upon the life of one of the greatest Amaling Emperors. Though I can only strive to reach the scholarly heights of Dr. Baker, the language of his translation has grown mildly archaic over the past five decades; especially as the good Doctor chose to write in a poetic-Sexish which has long since fallen out of vogue. Furthermore, those same five decades have seen a veritable explosion in scholarship related to Theodoric and Witteric in the decades since the collapse of Sigisthiuda rule in the Gottreik; an event which must have been unimaginable to Baker when he labored with his translation.

As should surprise no one, much of the scholastic reevaluation of Theodoric was initially hostile. Though known by the cognomen “the Fair” throughout the Restoration and Theutish eras, Theodoric was renamed “the Great” by Yearningst scholars of the century prior. The cult of Theodoric became an important part of nationalist mythology and was central to the propaganda of Sigisthiuda in justifying their occupation of much of southern and central Europe. Though it would be unfair to claim that much of said scholarship was mere ‘hack-work’ it is safe to say that the image of Theodoric that emerged in reaction to these modern events was less than complimentary to the long-dead Emperor. One of the few reevaluations which broke new ground was that of Dr. Ingoberg Chilpretson which managed to investigate the impact which Theodoric’s invasions had upon her native Frankland, and examined his life along with his rival Sigebert Langenbart within the context of late seventh and early eighth centuries.

Luckily, the last decade has seen a reaction against the predominantly negative views of Theodoric which emerged during the Post-War era; while still taking into account some of the breakthroughs of Chilpertson and many of her colleagues. What has emerged in a more well rounded view of the Gothic Emperor, stripped of the much of the mythology of the past century and a half. This Theodoric is no longer a great man of destiny, guided by God to glorify the Gothic Empire. But so too, is he not the militaristic Gothic leader who wishes to force all of Europe to bow to his will. Instead, he is a man of his times, burdened with the unfortunate circumstances of his youth, but possessing a drive and will to live up to the expectations of his Father and followers. We see not a battle-hungry warlord, but instead a man who cared for the arts, literature and faith – albeit, one who felt that his many wars were truly in the greater interest of his realm and people.

I have lived with Theodoric as my constant companion for many years, in preparing this text. I have sought to travel to the many important places which helped shape his life – from his suspected birthplace in the lands of Avonia, to Ravenna and Rome. I walked the hills and plains of Beneuvre, Metz, Sigiberg, the Weser and Grantabridge. I even hunted Verden, where he died, and traveled to the Thutish-era fortress of Ahwahallus near Trent where legend states that he was buried and where he lay not dead but dreaming. And I would like to think that this modern take on his character and life would be pleasing to him. The Theodoric which emerges from the pages of Witteric is not some vain-glorious conqurer or blood-thirsty tyrant. Instead, he comes across as an ambitious, dedicated man, who passionately loves those close to him, and is faithful in many ways. If he has any great faults, they are those of many men who have been told of their greatness from childhood: he is impatient, occasionally given to rash judgement, and possesses the famed Amalingian temper – though he is equally quick to forgive. Through it all, a great sadness seems to poke through the joys and victories of his life, such as when Witteric tells us that Theodoric wept openly following the second miscarriage of his wife, Radegund – or his sorrow at seeing his youngest sister married away to the Vandal King. He is, in other words, a man made from the same clay as the rest of us.[FN3]



There are four primary sources which relate to us the life of Theodoric II, though only three of which have survived until the modern time. The first, of course, is Witteric’s biography – a translation of which you hold in your hand- and the second is Sigisbairht the Frodgibands’s “History of the Goths” which was finalized some decades after the Emperor’s death. A third is Walharjis’ “History of the Amalings” which was composed either during or shortly after Theodoric’s reign, but which has since been lost to us. We do know, however, that Sigisbairht quoted freely from Walharjis and cited his work was one of the the later scholars’ major sources. Finally, we have the “Choricle of Theudebald“ – a Frankish chronicle which perports to tell the History of the Franks from their beginnings until the end of the Ruination. Despite these bold claims, much of the chronicle prior to the Fall of the Merovings is highly mythological in nature, and the main focus of the work recounts the rise and fall of Sigebert Landen-Bart, the conquest of Frankland and it’s experiences during the Ruination – leading many to believe that the author was a contemporary of these events.

Of these, Witteric and Sigisisbairht are the most laudatory, though the latter is not above cirticising the great Gothic Emperor. Theudebald is, naturally enough, largely hostile and reflects the contemporary attitudes which the Franks would have held of their conqurer. Sadly, the Saxons are completely silent about their experiences; and the great transformations which would grip the Saxon state during and after Theodoric’s reign only come down to us second hand, either through reports by their neighbors or folk memories recounted and reorded centuries later during the Theutish Era. The Sexish, surprisingly, are largely silent save for a few references in the Sexo-Anglish Chronicles; a fact which has called into question some of what we have long suspected about Theodoric and his reign, and the claims of the Goths.



Chapter 2: The Early Reign of Theodoric the Fair [FN4]

Following his coronation, Theodoric vowed to continue the work of his Father and, at first, little difference could be seen between the young Emperor and the old. The people of Ravenna, who had wept openly with him at the death of his brothers and now father, were at peace. It was said during this time, that young Theodoric had the likeness of his elder, for there were still many those alive who remembered when Thorismund had come to the capitol as a young man, and the people were glad of it. It was believed that if a son carried the likeness of his Father physically, so too he must do so in character as well.

Much like Thorismund, Theodoric dedicated himself to the completion of the Church of the Holy Familywhere the bodies of his Father, mother, sister and brothers lay in eternal repose. Many days, the young Emperor could be found walking to the Church and overseeing construction himself and he was there so often that many of the workers nicknamed him “The Young Foreman,” and they would often take their sup with him. Others in the Emperor’s position would have been offended by the freeness of the yeomen who labored on his Father’s legacy, but Theodoric took great pride in this title – so much so that he decreed that “foreman” be listed on his tomb when he died.



Though beloved by the people, there were those who looked upon the death of Thorismund and the ascension of the young Emperor as a sign of the Empire’s weakness. Chief amongst these was Sigebert, the usurper who styled himself King of the Franks. Sigebert had decades earlier, killed the legitimate King Dagobert and married hs daughter Aregund, taking the royal prestige upon himself. A vain and proud man, he forced all the reiks of the Franks to bow to him, and there were those that whispered that he thought himself to be the equal of the Son.

Even the Saxons learned to fear him, and tales of his cruelty were spread wide and far. For, upon his taking the throne, a Saxon King named Ordulf -whose named meant Spear-Wolf – sensed weakness in his Frankish foes. And he said “It would be good for us to strie now, while they are weak and distracted, and so vanquish our foes forever.” And he raised a mighty troop and descended upon Sigebert. But though the Frakish usurper was callous and cruel, he possessed within him the wit of the Enemy himself. And he lured Ordulf deep into his lands and there cut him down upon the banks of the Rhine, and it is said that so great was the slaughter that the river ran red for several weeks. And even today travelers report hearing the wails of Ordulf’s men as they were cruely slain, for since they had not accepted Christ, they are forced to wander the land for all eternity. [FN5]

Sigebert thereby vanquished the Saxons of the continent, and for as long as he lived, no Saxon would dare to rise up against him. But his blood-lust was not saited, for he now looked with greed into the Empire and saw there much treasure, and many good Christian men and women who he wished to take as slaves. And so he rallied his armies once again and crossed into the Empire, telling all that he was Clovis reborn and had come to take vengeance upon Goths for their sins against his people. This was during the reign of Amalamir the Second, and few – save Thorismund – were brave enough to stand before him …

Now, when Sigebert saw the young Theodoric take the throne, he thought to himself “There is a young man leading them. And though, when I was a young man, I slayed a wolf bare-handed, I do not think this child as the strength to match me. And so, much as I did before, I shall cross into Jaile and molest the lands, taking gold, men, and other riches to my capitol of Metz. And should this child stand against me, I shall slay him, and then all the Goths will know me to be their Master.” And this he did. In the year 696, he invaded the Empire and sought to extinguish the ligh of the Goths in that land.




“The Flame Blazed and then Was Snuffed Out: The Kingdom of Frankland during the Reign of King Sigebert the Long-Beard” Journal of Restoration Era Studies, Vol XXI, No. 4 (1978)
By: Dr. Ingoberg Chilpretson

In the year 677, King Sigebert of the Franks entered into the old Roman city of Utrecht after a siege of several months. He had come to accept the surrender of King Wulfram of the Frisians. For years, the Frisians and their Saxon neighbors had been a consistent threat to the Kingdom of Frankland; threatening to invade the Christian kingdom whenever its attention was focused upon it’s imperial neighbor to the West. This situation had begun to change five years earlier with the overthrow of Frankish King Dagobert III by his successor, Sigebert; known historically as “Long-Beard.” First the new King had turned his attention east, luring the Saxon reik Ordulf into a trap along the River Rhine and, having subdued his foe, Sigebert wasted no time in turning his attention north.

Theudebald invests this moment with drama, describing the tattered rainaments of the Frisian King, but the noble dignity that he held within himself as he strode to the conquering Sigebert and knelt, swearing feaslty to his new master. We are told that Sigebert agreed to allow Wulfram to remain in power, in exchange for royal hostages as well as a promise of baptism. Sigebert then embraced the vanquished Frisian King as a brother, with the retainers of both armies cheered. After the Wulfram’s baptism, which occurred that same day, a great feast was held.

The Kingdom of Frankland during much of the seventh century was a kingdom besieged. Following the defeat of the Merovings a century earlier, Fankland existed in a nebulous state – when the Gothic Empire was strong, the Franks operated as vassals of their more powerful neighbor; such as when Amalamir crushed the armies of King Clothar and exended imperial suzerainty over the state. However, when the Empire was weak – such as during the course of the Kunis Wars – the Franks would throw off the Imperial yoke and turned their attention towards raiding and plundering their neighbor. In this, they were only checked by the presence of the hostile Saxons and Frisians along their eastern and northern borders, respectively. Although the Saxons and Frisians were unable to act in concord with the Empire due to their refusal to accept Christianity, this didn’t prevent them from exploiting Gothic-Frankish tensions by attacking and raiding the Franks whenever possible.

This state of affairs would remain in place until the overthrow of Dagobert by Sigebert in roughly the year 670-72. Although Sigebert appeared to claim royal blood, he was not directly related to the main royal line of the Fredegarlings who had ruled the Franks for fifty years prior. Despite this, he was of a high enough rank to serve in the Gothic military during the reign of Theodebert II and Thorismund the Good, fighting in the losing campaign against the Moravians. This afforded him a certain amount of social prestige, which allowed him to marry the younger daughter of a Gothicnoble family in order to secure his loyalty.

Meanwhile, Dagobert was a weak ruler. Although the Franks continued to practice the older inheritance practices of their Merovingian ancestors, Dagobert III inherited a unified Kingdom, following the death of his father Gunthar II. However, Dagobert would prove to be a weak ruler – rumors told that he was a cuckold several times over with his wives, and that Sigebert himself was one of the suitors. Whatever the truth of those stories, Sigebert raised the banner of rebellion and after a short, but vicious, campaign, he proved victorious, taking a daughter of Gunthar as his wife, shaved Dagobert’s head and sentencing him to the life of a monk. [FN6] Sigebert then, according to even the most friendly sources, strangled his Gothic wife and refused to allow her a Chrsitian burial, instead allowing her body to rot in the city center of Metz. [FN7]

Sigebert‘s reign coincided with the growing economic strength of Frankland, which had been experiencing the growth of trading towns for the past several decades. Although Gothic sources continued the tradition of treating Frankland as a desert, archeological data shows us that the Kingdom had entered into a period of economic growth – hampered only by its political instability and weak leadership. Sigebert would provide the leadership that was needed, harnessing the inherent strength of the realm and using it to project power over its neighbors. Unfortunately for the Franks, Sigebert underestimated the abilities of Theodoric II – nicknamed either the Fair or the Great depending on the era of scholarship – and this would lead to the end of not only his life, but also his Kingdom.



Although Gothic historical sources would attempt to depict Sigebert as a conquerer, determined to wrest Jaile from the Western Empire and reestablish Franking hegemony over the region. In this, they are likely conflating the proto-nationalistic goals of Sigebert with the extent of the realm established by Ruination-era Imperial pretender Baderic. A careful analysis of the King and his movements suggests a more realistic policy; had his goal been the conquest of Jaile, he would have forced a settlement with the Empire following his occupation of which of the territory during the reign of Amalamir II. Instead, his withdrawl following the ascension of Thorismund II to the purple suggests that the invasion was a glorified raid meant to increase his own prestige as well as the wealth of the Frankish Kingdom.

It seems safe to assume then, that grand conquest was not the endgame for the Frankish King. The clue as to his actual goals lies in his humiliation of the Saxons and later subjugation of the Frisians. Namely, after decades of weak rule, Sigebert wished to pacify the neighbors of the Franks at all costs, strengthen the Kingdom, and establish its defacto as well as dejure independence from the Gothic Empire. His greatest goal was to wrest Frankland forever from the sphere of the Goths and establish it as a strong nation free from foreign interfearance which could operate for itself on the international stage – if one will allow the use of modern terminology. This naturally included humiliating the Goths and bringing them to the table for peace talks, but if such a situation could not realistically be brought about, it would be enough to prove that the Franks could not be militarily defeated and could, in fact, project their power deep into Imperial territories.



The invasion of 696 then, then, marked a gamble by Sigebert, but a measured one. Already elderly for his era, he had ruled for over 24 years and must have been in his mid-50s at the youngest. During that time he had proven himself well versed in the arts of war, and likely felt that Jaille had recovered enough to make such an expedition fruitful and profitable for himself and the state. Furthermore, the Emperor of the Goths was little more than a boy and would be easy to out manuever and defeat if it came to that – likely, Sigebert felt it would be more likely that the young man would attempt to buy him off with a promise of tribute, which also served his purposes.

Of course, Sigebert would ultimately be proven correct in the short term …

The Life of Theodoric the Fait
By: Witteric Un-tals
Translated and Edited by: Athelrad Edwardson
London: National University of Sexland Publishing, 1982

Word quickly reached Ravenna of the atrocities committed by the Frankish villains. Theodoric was yet a young man, but he did not shirk his responsibilities to his people nor quiver in fear. Instead, he grew wroth and summoned the bannermen of the Goths and the Romans too, and amassed a grand army. He know that the loyal reiks of Jaille would be stiff-necked and refuse to bow to the invader, giving him time to draw up his own forces and march to their relief.

Having done so, he marched. Though this would be his first war, Theodoric was not unaccustomed to the military camp, having accompanied his father on military excursions in the past. And he had studied the great military leaders of the past – though not in as much depth as he would soon come too. It was said on this march that the soldiers came to love him, for he supped with them, shared in their jokes, and would often invite others back to his tent for beer and wine. They saw him as one of their own, and many vowed that they would die for him, rather than let him come to harm. One such man was Lucius, a Roman of the Aquila lineage who’s would soon prove himself the closest friend of the Emperor, and there were those who called the pair a latter day David and Jonathan.



It would be at Beneuvre at the forces of the Goths met those of the Franks. Sigebert had bethe baen cleaver and upon notice of the Goths’ advance, he had made to withdrawl as if he feared the superior might of his foe. Theodoric chased his foe for several days until he was deep within the forest, and there Sigebert laid his trap. His forces sprang from the wood and assailed the Goths, cutting down many of their unsuspecting enemy. There was a great bloodshed and it soon seemed as if all was lost, and the great Emperor would fall to the swords of the Frankman.

Indeed, Theodoric was nearly bested by a Frank thane, before the Roman warrior Lucius came to his rescue, driving his blade into the foeman, and saving the life of the Emperor. With this stroke, Theodoric overcame his own shock and was able to rally his men, and they retreated in an orderly fashion, dealing many cruel blows to the Franks who sought to end their lives. Soon the Goths were free and marching south.

Though Theodoric, until the end of his days, would mourn the men lost at Beneuvre, counting it forever as his only great loss, battle had also bloodied the Franks. Seeing that they could not overwhelm the Goths, Sigebert Laggs-Bards ordered his men to retreat as well. They carried much wealth with them back to the lands of the Franks, but Sigebert was bitter for he knew that he had not truly vanquished his foe. And he knew, further, that Theodoric would return, stronger and more able than before. For he had seen the Emperor in battle and had remarked to his son Sigefriend, “There is a true warrior. For though bested, he continues to fight. And a man such as that will not stop until all of his foes lay dead before him.” The Frankish King would prove to be correct in his judgement and from this time onward, he knew it was just a matter of time before the Goths returned to extract their vengeance, and he was afraid. [FN8]

August 696
Somewhere North of Dijon

Throughout the camp there was no the sense of misery and depression which he had thought there might be. Instead, the men talked and drank around a myriad of camp fires – though guards remained at attention, scouts had reported that the main force of King Sigebert’s forces were heading North. And so the men celebrated. Not victory, no – there had been little victory in the forests of Beneuvre but the simple reality of being alive.

None blamed him, of course. Even Theodoric’s closest advisors told him that they had been caught as unaware as he himself had. But this did little to cheer him, or lift the guilt from his heavy shoulders. His men had trusted him, and he had led them into a trap. He wished that he saw hatred in their eyes as they walked past his tent, but instead he saw only their paternal pity, and this drove the knives in all the deeper.

Theodoric sighed and nearly hugged the cup of mulled wine as he brought it to his lips and took a shallow swallow.

“My lord,” I voice called out from the darkness.

Theodoric just grunted in acknowledgment.

“You asked us to find the man who you claimed saved your life.”

At this, Theodoric lifted his attention from his cup and felt a small surge of life return, chasing away the depression. “Yes. Yes I did. Have you found him.”

The voice was attached to a man who simply nodded and stepped aside, letting another man walk into the circle of light given off by the fire.

Theodoric felt his throat contract as he looked up to see quite possible the most beautiful man he had ever laid eyes on. Unlike most Romans, the man had light hair rather than dark, but his chiseled featured spoke of an ancestry which sprung deep from the central parts of the peninsula: light, olive collored skin, brown eyes and a prominent chiseled nose. Without thinking, Theodoric stood to meet the man, and said “Is it true? Are you the one who saved me when the Frank had broken through my defenses?”

He had no idea why he even asked that question – the entire incident had happened in a flash; one moment he was sprawled on his back, and the next his attacked had a sword protruding from his belly, but he immediately recognized the soldier.

“Aye, it was me,” the Roman replied with a smile that was both confident, yet seemed oddly sheepish.

“And your name,” Theodoric asked, before catching himself. The man spoke Gothic in stilted, heavily-accented way, which he had often heard from even the most educated of the Senatorial class in Rome. “Would you prefer to speak in Latin,” he asked in that language?

The man smiled broader and laughed, “No, I speak Gothic, but I thank you all the same.”

The smile was infectious and soon Theodoric found himself sharing in it. “I owe you my life. Would you allow me to repay you with a drink at the very least?” Though he had servants, he reached for a glass, poured it full of mulled wine and practically thrust it into the hands of the Roman soldier.

“I thank you. And to answer your question, my name is Lucius Aquila. If your wine is as strong as your Latin, I’d be more than happy to have a cup by your side.” [FN9]

“I don’t just speak Latin and Gothic, of course,” Theodoric said with a hint of fluster to his voice. Switching laguages again, he smiles and added, “I’ve studied Greek since I was a child as well.”

Lucius laugh at this, “If your fighting was as good as your linguistis, I’d have not had to save you,” he said in Greek which was only slightly more accented than the Emperor’s own.

The second these words passed his lips, Lucius’s eyes grew wide and his hand shot up to cover his mouth, as if to close the stable door, long after the horses had already fled. In the fire light Theodoric could see his savior’s face grow pale and then turn a deep crimson (accented, of course, by the flickering of the flames between them.). Beads of sweat began to pour from his brow, and it was likely the fire had little to do with this.

Theodoric raised an eye brow as he considered the comment, and then burst out laughing. “Too true,” he said, “too true! I suppose I should have spent less time as a child reading Homer and even more practicing with my elder brothers.” His voice caught, as he thought of his brothers, and a cloud passed over his eyes.

Lucius seemed to catch the mood, “I apologize for the familiarity, my Emperor. I shouldn’t have spoken as such. But if you will allow me to say so, I too had older brothers. One died fighting against Sigebert years earlier, when I was buy a child, and another died of illness. I know what it’s like to lose those close to me.”

Theodoric looked into his cup and drank, thinking. Finally he said, “Think nothing of it. What kind of Emperor would I be if I punished men for telling me the truth? I respect your honesty. My father always told me that an honest man was worth twice the weight of a flatterer in gold. And he was rarely wrong about such things.”

Lucius relaxed and sat by the fire. The two men drank silently for some minutes, the Emperor thinking and Lucius unwilling to interrupt those thoughts. Occasionally, their eyes would meet, and one of the other would quickly dart their eyes aside as if having been stung.

Theodoric’s mind was in a fog. He didn’t know what it was about this Roman before him, but his heart fluttered and he felt far warmer than he should be this night. Though his tutors had often told him that he had a way with words in debate, he suddenly felt terrified to open his mouth, let his tongue fall out and betray him.

This had happened before, of course. There had been a few other young men in his day – but those had been mere daliances, easily able to be covered up by his Father and the rest of the court. But here he was in the midst of a war camp, with all too many eyes upon him. Theodoric knew he needed to be careful, but he also knew that he had to do something.

Finally, he made his decision. “Lucius, would you sup with me tonight? It’s the least I can offer a man who’s bravery and skilled saved by own miserable life.”

Lucius coughed, and there was more than a little shock behind that jesture. “My Lord, it would be my honor. I swear.”

Theodoric smiled – one of the few times he had truly smiled over the past several days. “Good! And please, call me Theodoric. Titles are great for the court, but much less needed on campaign. Especially amongst friends.” He added extra emphasis to those last few words and wondered in Lucius caught them.

The blush which rose upon the Roman’s cheeks said that they did.

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[FN1] Emperors had done so before. It was said that Theodebert I stumbled upon being lifted on the shield. The fact that the Fourth Punic War went against his desires was, of course, lost on no one. Stumbling or slipping would be seen as, at best, bad luck and at worse, a sign from god of the emperor’s unworthiness. Mind you, other Emperor have done so as well; standing on a bloody shield as its being lifted is an awkward mauever to any but the most acrobatically inclined. But do they get remembered? A bit, maybe – Thorismund the Good stumbled a bit (yes, he was a bit drunk at the time) so some tongues waged about it foreshadowing his troubles with the Church – but really, it’s mainly Theodebert who gets dragged up from the popular memory. Poor Theodebert. Oddly enough (and this is widely forgotten by the crowd) Athaneric and Amalamir II both pulled off the manuever without a hitch: and they had utterly dreadful reigns!

[FN2] Un-tals means, literally “the indocile.” One can suspect that, unlike many scholars who are deferential and devoted chiefly to their work – old Witteric has a somewhat different disposition. Whether this works its way into his narrative is left to be seen; it will become obvious that he was truly devoted to Theodoric. But it seems, he was able to gain imperial favor despite, or perhaps because of, a certain reputation.

[FN3] SOOOO much foreshadowing here in this paragraph 😊 Also, if anyone can suggest a good Gothic cognate for Avigon, I would be happy to hear it!

[FN4] Modern chapter headings, of course. Early medieval books didn’t work that way 😉

[FN5] The Saxons didn’t actually HAVE Kings at this point – as we will learn in subsequent chapters – so assume this was an amibitious Earl or military leader. One of the problems of sources from this era; people assumed everyone else had many of the same titles and ranks they did. So of COURSE a strong Saxon leader would be a King.

[FN6] You may notice that despite the Goths describing Sigebert as the Devil himself, he doesn’t seem particularly violent – he sentences a rival to a monastery and allows another ot keep his throne as long as he vows loyalty and to convert.

[FN7] Okaaaaaaayyyyyy … never mind.

[FN8] One might assume that Witteric is reading later events back into the past, along with a healthy dose of wishful thinking to boot!

[FN9] This is NOT the first time we’ve met Lucius. Not the first time at all; though he has gone under a few different names in past chapters.

And here we go! The first chapter of the cycle which will deal with the life and reign of Theodoric II. This had to do some establishing work before we can get into the 'good stuff' - but hopefully it helped establish his character and the political situation (to an extent) that our long promised Emperor will have to deal with. As usual, any questions or comments are always welcome!
 
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Are we talking about the total end of the Frankish kingdom as an independent nation or the end of Sigebert's unified kingdom?

That bit about him murdering his overthrown brother's wife makes me think that ITTL there's a ghost story where people allege to have seen the spirit of a wailing woman in bloodstained noblewoman's clothes where the woman's body was dumped because she wasn't given a proper burial.
 
Are we talking about the total end of the Frankish kingdom as an independent nation or the end of Sigebert's unified kingdom?

That bit about him murdering his overthrown brother's wife makes me think that ITTL there's a ghost story where people allege to have seen the spirit of a wailing woman in bloodstained noblewoman's clothes where the woman's body was dumped because she wasn't given a proper burial.

I'd say it's somewhere inbetween. Frankland is going to vanish from the map for a period of time and be incorporated into the Empire - how long this state of affairs last, has yet to be seen. There are some clues as to what occures in Gothic-occupied Frankland in the future, and also some clues that it exists as an ethnic group (and presumably nation) in the modern era, so the Franks aren't going to vanish and become a historical footnote. But the Kingdom as it currently exists its going to go the way of the dodo sooner than later.

And no, Sigebert didn't murder his brother's wife (Dagobert was probably closer to his second cousin, anyway). He straggled his OWN Gothic wife. Apparently, he was more than happy to marry her while serving the goths for political advancement, but something happened once he returned to Frankland. What that is, is lost to history as presented here (was it personal, or political? We don't know). But, yeah - Sigebert can be a cold operator.

As to here ghost? Well, there's a FEW Germanic ghost legends I want to work into the fabric of this world sooner than later. So, yes - I will state that a ghost legend about her persists to this day. Is it true or not? I will leave that up to my readers as to whether they believe in ghosts or not.
 
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I'd say it's somewhere inbetween. Frankland is going to vanish from the map for a period of time and be incorporated into the Empire - how long this state of affairs last, has yet to be seen. There are some clues as to what occures in Gothic-occupied Frankland in the future, and also some clues that it exists as an ethnic group (and presumably nation) in the modern era, so the Franks aren't going to vanish and become a historical footnote. But the Kingdom as it currently exists its going to go the way of the dodo sooner than later.

And no, Sigebert didn't murder his brother's wife (Dagobert was probably closer to his second cousin, anyway). He straggled his OWN Gothic wife. Apparently, he was more than happy to marry her while serving the goths for political advancement, but something happened once he returned to Frankland. What that is, is lost to history as presented here (was it personal, or political? We don't know). But, yeah - Sigebert can be a cold operator.

As to here ghost? Well, there's a FEW Germanic ghost legends I want to work into the fabric of this world sooner than later. So, yes - I will state that a ghost legend about her persists to this day. Is it true or not? I will leave that up to my readers as to whether they believe in ghosts or not.
It's only natural that the Amalingan Empire go the way of OTL's Carolingian Empire. There's no way to keep a large portion of Western Europe unified in the long term..

Frankland/Franconia(?) only temporarily vanishing from the map like Poland seems like the best outcome for them. Though probably not with the same borders as in the last map. Also like Poland.

Ahh, my mistake. Well, Sigebert wouldn't be the only European monarch to marry purely for political expedience rather than any kind of romantic attraction. And he's not the only medieval ruler who we'd likely be able to classify with some form of sociopathy.

Supernatural legends like ghost stories are such an underappreciated part of alternate history. You don't have to believe in them to understand that what the stories people tell adds flavor to a timeline.
 
It's only natural that the Amalingan Empire go the way of OTL's Carolingian Empire. There's no way to keep a large portion of Western Europe unified in the long term.

There really isn't, unfortunately - especially during this era. And it's one of the reasons (though not the only one) that the Amalingian realm has grown so decentralised. To be fair, though, by the time the Empire eventually falls - they will have had a pretty long, and good, run.

Frankland/Franconia(?) only temporarily vanishing from the map like Poland seems like the best outcome for them. Though probably not with the same borders as in the last map. Also like Poland.

That's a pretty good analogy, though the Franks won't have nearly as long to wait as the Poles did. Perhaps an equally good analogy would be the Kingdom of Italy in the early Medieval era.

On a related note, Franconia wouls probably be the name as it appears in Latin. I settled on Franklin's because it was certainly Germanic, but avoids just recycling the German name for France from OTL.

Ahh, my mistake. Well, Sigebert wouldn't be the only European monarch to marry purely for political expedience rather than any kind of romantic attraction. And he's not the only medieval ruler who we'd likely be able to classify with some form of sociopathy.

This is very true. I've been trying to depict each of my rulers as distinctive personalities with their own faults and strengths. I've never wanted to write Emperor Charming who never makes any mistakes and is perfect, nor a Duke Snidely III of House Whiplash.

That having been said, there will be a Gothic ruler coming up who could probably give Sigebert a run for his money in ruling harshly. But, I hope, when we get to him ... his actions and personality will make sense.


Supernatural legends like ghost stories are such an underappreciated part of alternate history. You don't have to believe in them to understand that what the stories people tell adds flavor to a timeline.

And this is exactly why I've been having so much fun sketching out myths and story cycles for this timeline. First, it helps make the world seem more lived in and realistic. Second ... well, I love myths, story cycles, folklore and ghost stories. :D
 
And yes, Senators can raise armies - however, its important to remember that the Emperor in the West still has overall command of the army - the Empire hasn't grown that decentralized yet.
I'm interested to see how long this remains the case given the increasing prominence of imperial appanages.

If imperial cousins are recalcitrant in providing their military obligations, the senate will more than take notice. Theoderic should be able to keep them in hand though- actually I can't wait to talk about this guy. He's brilliant, him and Lucius being David and Jonathan is very nice, and given the fact that Theoderic is up on his homer, the Patroclus and Achilles comparisons are there as well (hopefully it ends better though). It's also very cool to see him struggle with neurodivergence- I hope he writes some meditations/Baburnama like work so that future people can get an inside look into his worldview and sexuality.

I really had wanted to see another Eastern Germanic language take hold; but we've got the Gothic varieties and Gepid that will survive up to the modern period
I think you may have to find a team of people to get conlanging and see about delineating the evolution of gothic. I'm way out of my depth at the moment, my vibe is more romance, but there's gotta be someone who can help out here.


On a side note - it's important to remember that though the Romans in Spania and the Gaels are both Orthodox, their rites would still have some significant differences.
Fair enough- it makes a degree of sense that outright schism didn't happen otl as the Celtic tradition was isolated enough that differences weren't too prominent, while here because the contact is so direct there's more of a schism. I'm surprised though that the Gaels are bringing their bishops with them to Spania, and not just using the pre-existing orthodox clergy as I thought was hinted in the epic cycle- it's not the most common thing, especially given the relative strength of that tradition in the rest of the peninsula. Perhaps a parallel is in William the Conquerors replacement of Anglo Saxon clergy with Normans in 1066. I'm possibly reading too much into epic pseudo history tho 😜.




, I exect the primacy of Ravenna to be questioned significantly by Carthage and for the latter Church to do it's best to retain it's independance (certainly more so than the other Arian Churches). However, I'm not entirely sure that the polymagy would be as big of an issue - first, the Vandals likely practice it themselves, at least amongst their upper classes, secondly even in OTL the Merovingians practiced it and this never seems to have seriously called thier Orthodoxy into question (and the Catholic faith of that era would have been opposed to it).
Oh wow I didn't know that about the Merovingians- was this official marriage or concubinage? Fair enough that might not be as big of an issue as I'd thought- though maybe it gets politicised due to arian- orthodox tensions. Do you think the vandal churches structure has copied the Gothic one, or does it remain similar to otls vandal kingdom and other otl arian churches, with priests (no real distinction between bishop and priest) not tied to a particular diocese, more functioning as royal agents, as well as churches remaining essentially privately owned and operated institutions?

That remains to be seen - but I suspect that it will be playing a part in the Ruination!
Watch this space....

[FN9] This is NOT the first time we’ve met Lucius. Not the first time at all; though he has gone under a few different names in past chapters.
Oh god am I gonna need to find this guy now. Side note, did you have thoughts on my thread clutter about the status of symbolic survival of punic in Africa?

Once again, I'm so glad to get caught up as we head towards future developments.
 
I'm interested to see how long this remains the case given the increasing prominence of imperial appanages.

If imperial cousins are recalcitrant in providing their military obligations, the senate will more than take notice. Theoderic should be able to keep them in hand though- actually I can't wait to talk about this guy. He's brilliant, him and Lucius being David and Jonathan is very nice, and given the fact that Theoderic is up on his homer, the Patroclus and Achilles comparisons are there as well (hopefully it ends better though). It's also very cool to see him struggle with neurodivergence- I hope he writes some meditations/Baburnama like work so that future people can get an inside look into his worldview and sexuality.

So far the Emperor has managed to maintain his position of Commander in Chief (for lack of a better term) pretty successfully. The situation with the Senate is complicated and is viewed with increasing distrust not just with the Imperial government but also by the Gothic nobility as well - though the compromises of Theodemir the Great went a long way towards dissipating ethnic and cultural tensions, they have never fully gone away. And though the Senate has long looked to the Gothic Emperors with a certain amount of loyalty for helping to reinvigorate the body, there are certainly those who continue to see the Goths as foreigners who don'treally deserve their position on the top of the pile. Which is all a long way of saying that there is more than a little tension stemming from the State-within-a-State which is Senatorial Italy; these tensions have broken out in the past, and some good luck as well as diplomacy have gone a long way towards holding things together. Whether this state of affairs in teniable in the long-term, however, remains to be seen.

And I love that you are enjoying the character of Theodoric so far. I'm taking a number of inspirations with him and his personality - some medieval and some more modern. There is one big one who will be rather obvious as time goes on, if it isn't already plain; but I would caution anyone from reading too much into it. Theodoric is a very different personality in many ways.

The relationship between Theodoric and Lucius will be very important as this story continues and will influence a lot of the narrative; and the Achilles and Patroclus analogy is spot on (I'm actually rather embarassed that I didn't include THAT in the chaper, lol). I can't tell you that it will turn out better - that's in the eye of the beholder - but I can promise that it will be very different!

Also, good eye on picking up that he is neurodivergent, to use the modern term. I don't want to go too much into detail about it, because I'm not sure what his 'official' diagnosis would be. But I'm developing a fairly clear idea of his personality and how it will express itself, at least.


I think you may have to find a team of people to get conlanging and see about delineating the evolution of gothic. I'm way out of my depth at the moment, my vibe is more romance, but there's gotta be someone who can help out here.

I would absolutely LOVE to see this done. @TheProfessor has done some work on language evolution for me in the past (which has been brilliant! I even threadmarked his posts for that very reason); but getting something a bit more indepth done would be both fascinating, but also pretty useful to boot.

Fair enough- it makes a degree of sense that outright schism didn't happen otl as the Celtic tradition was isolated enough that differences weren't too prominent, while here because the contact is so direct there's more of a schism. I'm surprised though that the Gaels are bringing their bishops with them to Spania, and not just using the pre-existing orthodox clergy as I thought was hinted in the epic cycle- it's not the most common thing, especially given the relative strength of that tradition in the rest of the peninsula. Perhaps a parallel is in William the Conquerors replacement of Anglo Saxon clergy with Normans in 1066. I'm possibly reading too much into epic pseudo history tho 😜.

There are also hints in the mythic cycle as to why as Gaelic bishops might be chosen ;) But yes, the Norman Conquest isn't a terribly analogy for what ends up going down in Dal Caoimhe (though there are some other people movements that I'm also looking to for inspiration). We'll be getting to the establishment of the Historical realm sooner than later here, especially once we reach the Ruination. So hopefully all will become clear.


Oh wow I didn't know that about the Merovingians- was this official marriage or concubinage? Fair enough that might not be as big of an issue as I'd thought- though maybe it gets politicised due to arian- orthodox tensions. Do you think the vandal churches structure has copied the Gothic one, or does it remain similar to otls vandal kingdom and other otl arian churches, with priests (no real distinction between bishop and priest) not tied to a particular diocese, more functioning as royal agents, as well as churches remaining essentially privately owned and operated institutions?

My understanding of the basic Arian Church structure is that is was pretty common throughout all of the Arian germanic kingdoms - and there was a distinction between priests and bishops (just not nearly as much as in the Orthodox church) with their usually being a supreme bishop of the tribe of people. Naturally, the Vandals had a bit more time for theirs to be established and for it to pick up it's own quirks; but I do think it would gravitate naturally to the Gothic model since 1) they come from a similar base and 2) the Gothic Church is going to be the most prominent and prestigious. Though I suspect that a Arian Patriarich of Carthage will end up being declared eventually - and the relationship between the two would them be closer to those of the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow, for instance.


Watch this space....


Oh god am I gonna need to find this guy now. Side note, did you have thoughts on my thread clutter about the status of symbolic survival of punic in Africa?

I will have to give some more thought to some symbolic survival of punic. From my understanding, there was likely some punic survival until late antiquity, albeit in rural villages. Honestly, North Africa in this timeline is such a linguistic malange that it boggles my mind, LOL. I could definitely see the Vandal court adopting some Punic symbols and such to create a sense of continuity and difference; though they would also be likely to establish the same through connections to Roman North African culture and language too. And then they have their own identity on top of it, and the incursion of Berbers into the nobility and .... gahhhhhhhhh. Why did I have to make it even more confusing for myself!?!? :)

Once again, I'm so glad to get caught up as we head towards future developments.

Thanks man! And thank you for your thoughts - I really do apprecite them!
 
There really isn't, unfortunately - especially during this era. And it's one of the reasons (though not the only one) that the Amalingian realm has grown so decentralised. To be fair, though, by the time the Empire eventually falls - they will have had a pretty long, and good, run.



That's a pretty good analogy, though the Franks won't have nearly as long to wait as the Poles did. Perhaps an equally good analogy would be the Kingdom of Italy in the early Medieval era.

On a related note, Franconia wouls probably be the name as it appears in Latin. I settled on Franklin's because it was certainly Germanic, but avoids just recycling

You could also go with the name Franken (German name for the Franconia region).
 
My understanding of the basic Arian Church structure is that is was pretty common throughout all of the Arian germanic kingdoms - and there was a distinction between priests and bishops (just not nearly as much as in the Orthodox church) with their usually being a supreme bishop of the tribe of people. Naturally, the Vandals had a bit more time for theirs to be established and for it to pick up it's own quirks; but I do think it would gravitate naturally to the Gothic model since 1) they come from a similar base and 2) the Gothic Church is going to be the most prominent and prestigious. Though I suspect that a Arian Patriarich of Carthage will end up being declared eventually - and the relationship between the two would them be closer to those of the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow, for instance.
Ok so going off of “Barbarian ‘Arian’ Clergy, Church Organization, and Church Practices” by Ralph Mathisen it looks like the situation was as follows.
In the Visigothic kingdom until 572 and Leovigilds reforms, there were sacerdotes not episcopi, and the senior sacerdotes were all concentrated in the royal court not stationed in cities.
On the other hand, gothic presbyters are recorded as having dedicated churches to saints and dated documents by their presbyterate, which would be a bishops privilege in orthodoxy. Thus a priest has all the powers of a sacerdos, but isn’t attendant on the king. Meanwhile private laypeople were free to build their own churches appoint their own clergy and administer churches as private property.

In the Vandal kingdom already in 484 there exists a position which victor of vita (nicene) calls patriarcha, held by a certain Cyrila, who is the bishop (nicene)/sacerdos (arian) not of a particular city but of the king. The functions exercised by what victor calls bishops isn’t to minister to local arians or perform liturgical functions but to perform special missions given to them by the king such as forcible conversions– even of nicene bishops, resulting in cities having two Arian sacerdotes. Arian sacerdotes also didnt seem to come from respected backgrounds, as Patriarch Cyrila appointed one of his notaries as what victor calls a bishop. As the Vandal patriarchate is older than that of Ravenna, they’re even less likely to submit for long.
From my understanding, there was likely some punic survival until late antiquity, albeit in rural villages.
Well theres that and there’s also that there’s still probably lots of surviving neo Punic texts at this point, not the least of which being Bible translations which would be being faithfully copied out by monks. It could certainly be resuscitated as a secondary language of the cultured elite and has the benefit of not being primarily associated with Arianism or Orthodoxy so fills a more ecumenical niche.


Regarding conlanging, I think the way to go is let's first figure out what happens to stressed and unstressed vowels, then figure out consonants, then we can see whether that would increase confusion in the verbal/nominal system and how speakers might deal with that.

As a starting point though I was briefly taking a look at the University of Austin at Texas' online Gothic course and I had a thought-

In weak verbs the 2nd plural is same as 3rd singular (both are nasjith) so to avoid homophony and as the dual falls out of use and is repurposed, I could see use of the second dual (nasjats) instead of the second plural. nasjats also sounds more like a romance second plural than nasjith- the z in French second plural forms comes from something like amatis->aimets->aimez.

Also regarding the fate of final m and n:
In Latin and Sanskrit, a common thing was the nasalisation and then disappearance of word final m. If first plural -m (nasjam) gets nasalised and then vanishes, first dual -jōs (nasjos) can replace it in present and subjunctive, which also serves to make verbal more like nominal declension of a stems so it's a possibility through analogy both through the influence of the second persons dual becoming third plural and also through similarity between nouns and verbs. If we're saying that final nasals do delete though, that would have wide ranging effects throughout the language.
 
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It might be easier for Berbers to learn as well as they're both Semitic and already has a literary tradition and theres probably a good amount of Berber punic bilingualism as well, so Berber elite joining vandal nobility might adopt the punic identity. Talking of Semitic cognates, Augustine mentions that Punic speakers consider themselves purer transmitters of scripture given that there are cognates between it and Hebrew.
Don't know if ease of learning has anything to do with it, the Britons did just fine with English once it become clear they had no choice. The difference from their situation is that Berber society has probably survived the Vandal conquest. Those Berber elites still identify as protectors and representatives of their own tribes, intended to be independent not only from the coastal thalassocrats but from each other (there being no pan-Berber identity at this time). No one succeeded in destroying these, not even the Arabs-- in fact it was the Arabs who bowed to the Berbers as they more or less enacted the Arab invasions "in reverse", combining tribal organization with religious leadership to achieve impressive conquests. Didn't even really matter what kind of religious leadership-- the Fatimids and Almohads, practically opposite in ideology, are very similar as social phenomena**. In both cases the Berber tribe, intended to resist outsiders, instead becomes the instrument of paramount power over others. And only through the compromises of maintaining that power does "Arabs assimilating the Berber elite" really start to become a thing, as they for the most part moved from religious difference for difference's sake (Our tribe must not only vanquish its enemies, but vanquish them for their own good-- by our creed they will be saved!) toward something more mainstream (can't argue with these city folk, they'll talk your ear off. And when they throw rocks, they hide their hands...).

The only exception is really Mauritania, where the local Berbers lost their separate organizations, incorporated into Arab formations as a servile caste. But just north of that is Morocco, where no Ottoman governors could interfere and power remained with Berbers. More assimilated than before, but still asserting a right to rule through an old-school claim of descent from Ali, a relic of more... adventurous times.

What I mean to say is, no top-down transformation plans in North Africa can go according to plan unless Berber-led. Not saying it will fail necessarily, but it may be derailed to an unexpected ending-- certainly the Umayyads must have been disappointed to lose such a large territory in the early 700s, "conversion" having led only to the emergence of defiant Ali-descended political leaders (a similar, closer, and ultimately fatal threat from Khorasan would come only a few decades later). Not saying the Berbers always get what they want either-- the ambitious Ismailism of the Fatimids left behind Cairo and al-Azhar, but their actual religion survives only in some Yemeni and Indian pockets; and as for Berber supremacy in the Fatimid state, that was quickly lost to a succession of others-- Armenians, Kurds, Mamluks. But whatever advantage the Vandals get from their control of the sea, that's only worth as much as the products of the land-- the near lands of the Atlas valleys, but also the golden lands beyond the desert. And the land is only theirs for as long as they appease its real rulers.

Still, Berber interest in Punic has some potential, the memories of proud resistance to Romans and Greeks projected onto the contemporary Goths and Rhomans. Although "North African heroes" may be drawn from more recent periods. King Juba of Numidia may be a favorite, and one could do worse than Augustine. A focus on Carthage seems more romantic-republican-- Dido as Marianne, maybe? As for the Vandals in such a scenario, even if they lose their language they could still remain as a distinct social caste, as the Mamluks did in Egypt for many centuries after the Ottoman conquest (downgraded significantly by later Ottoman terror campaigns and the Napoleonic episode, but still numbering among Egypt's aristocracy until 1952). Absent the possibility of an "Auspicious Incident" down the road, it's not such a bad fate.

**Actually, something I didn't consider originally-- the hajj. IIRC the Fatimid origin story is that some Berbers of a particular tribe went on the hajj and met a charismatic scholar. They befriend him and invite him to their home, not expecting much-- but through his wisdom he solves their internal problems and gets them prepared to solve their external ones. I think the Almohad story is that the founder was a local who became estranged from his community but I don't remember. Certainly the hajj helps to explain how the Umayyads were cursed with Ali-descendant revolts on both the far west and far east of their empire, and how the Abbasids were confronted with Ismailis in Africa and Iraq-- but the Vandals are presiding over a very different kind of project, trying to make sure their religious world ends with their state's borders. At the very least, they may prefer their pilgrims go St James's way instead of Rome or Ravenna. It's possible that even Christian Berbers don't travel much, which might affect the sorts of friends they make. That might be good for some lucky (and cooperative) Vandal, but could equally bestow favor on a stranger recently arrived in Carthage...
 
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Somewhat related to the earlier-- I would like to see what comes out of Spain, specifically the Atlantic side (the Gaels seem to have the Pacific side covered). The adventures of the Catalans and Aragonese (getting your whole ethnicity banned from Mount Athos for nine hundred years, what a feat!) seem to prove that even a quarter of Spain is enough to be a powerful player in the Med, and relations with them might be an important factor in the Vandals' religion question.

Although, maybe the Vandals aren't under such a threat from the Atta as might be assumed. Really, I think the papacy is a very unique institution. In most of the world, autocephaly and/or caesaropapism seem like the norm. Sri Lanka might have spread Theravada to Southeast Asia but couldn't derive any advantage from that; and even in the Orthodox world, starting with the Bulgar precedent the rule seems to be that religious independence follows on the heels of political independence.

Only in the Roman papacy did you have a situation of religious authority so great and political authority so (at first) unthreatening (no strong Roman Empire here, like the one the Bulgars and Serbs had to define themselves against; this one has only a little state, and even that was a donation) that so many kings would agree to it extending a continental network through their territories, even carving out little pockets of episcopal sovereignty. Even that was arguably only an unintended side effect-- one could say the papacy was intended as the Franks' "national church" but survived into that nation's backward-looking successor states, turning into an international institution in the process. Either way, the papacy needed every possible advantage to achieve its status, and what might have become similar institutions elsewhere just didn't have the same lucky streak. The Abbasids were developing in that direction after losing the political side of their power to a succession of other dynasties, and might have built a "one church, many nations" order with Mamluk support. But the Ottomans put an end to that.

Meanwhile, not only is the Ravenna church not one of the original Patriarchates, but it is transparently a tool of the Gothic state, and a defining trait of the Gothic nation. Any other state's Arian church will try to become an autocephalous national church; the kings would have it no other way. And if they have the military force to resist then that's the end of that-- in fact, they could even make it so Ravenna is not an exclusively Gothic possession, like the Serbs requesting monasteries of their own in Mount Athos after their victories against the Byzantines.
 
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