Thatcher Survives-So Does British Rail

Which Tory Leader do you think could beat Blair?

  • Michael Portillo

    Votes: 45 41.3%
  • John Redwood

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Ken Clarke

    Votes: 28 25.7%
  • Michael Heseltine

    Votes: 17 15.6%
  • Malcolm Rifkind

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cecil Parkinson

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Margret Thatcher

    Votes: 42 38.5%
  • Gillian Shepherd

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    109

Devvy

Donor
You could upgrade portions of the SEML, but the main problems are the electrification - third rail 750v DC will struggle to support over 90mph, and basically impossible to go over 100mph, so OHLE needs installing which is bloody difficult to have simultaneously with third rail for grounding purposes. The 750v DC supply will need upgrading if used to support the huge current draw that the *TMST/Eurostar will pull. Also, most of the lines are quite bendy (bar Redhill-Tonbridge-Ashford), so high speeds difficult. And lastly, capacity issues; the SEML and other main lines have little capacity for more trains, let alone fast expresses which will conflict with slower commuter and local trains - and the increase in capacity expected to be needed for Channel Tunnel railfreight.

It basically falls in to an economics vs operations - does a potentially poor ROI win against operational difficulties or does it lose? After all, passengers aren't going to use the *Eurostar if it's often delayed due to being caught behind a late running commuter train, and runs not particularly frequently due to capacity issues.

PS: Agree that £150,000 isn't much of a cost overrun! ;)
 
Interesting update. £150,00 does not seem that much extra to stump up for the upgrade, but politicians heh?

Is there a way to upgrade an existing route rather than build an all new one?

Ah, I think I was missing an extra 0

Well as Devvy says, I don’t think they would. I thought they might suggest that seeing there might be a mentality of “we’ve upgraded the West Coast Mainline-we can upgrade anything”, but once you get past Tombridge the Eurostars will get bogged down in local traffic so I’m not sure if they would suggest that. Honestly we’ll just have to see what happens as the 90s moves on.
 
Part 6: 1993- Carpal Tunnel Rail Link Syndrome
CARPAL TUNNEL RAIL LINK SUNDROME

“If there’s one thing to know for certain...it was I didn’t particularly enjoy being Prime Minister.”-Michael Portillo, 2010 interview.


“I was Frankenstein, so we know what that made him.”-Margret Thatcher, 2003


When Michael Portillo first entered the Black Door, the country didn’t quite take him seriously.


Tabloids took great delight making puns from his name, gloss magazines focused on the size of his lips and his own backbenchers saw him initially as a bit of a laughing stock. He was voted the most handsome man in Britain in 1993. Then, rather unflatteringly, just the most handsome man in politics in 1995. To his party, he was too young, too out of the ordinary, and to the public, “A bit of a Tory.”

Regardless, he attracted a surprising amount of support in the 1992 leadership competition. Like it or not, Margret Thatcher had essentially ended the debate on Europe, by refusing to sign the Maastricht Treaty causing it to stall across the entire continent. But Heseltine could not help yapping about the Exchange Rate Mechanism in his first ballot challenge to Portillo, turning away support from MPs. However commenters of the competition suggested MP’s support of Portillo was an attempt to oust Heseltine from the competition in favour of a new candidate on the second round. When the second candidate turned out to be John Redwood however, the Party reluctantly picked Portillo.

Labour rose quickly in the polls in the first half of 1993, but as quickly as they rose, as quickly they fell. Portillo proved himself slowly as a commendable PM. While he was known for being dogmatic and almost sneery to the public, his performances in PMQs and his ability to contain the witty criticisms of John Smith gained him respect in the Party. His handling on the Bosnia Crisis,where he defied the UN arms embargo and sided with the Americans to attack the Bosnian Serbs, earned him a boost in the public eye. In the 1993 Conservative Conference, he reiterated the Thatcherite “strong leader, strong economy, strong Britain” mantra, which lead the Daily Mail to name him the “Iron Baby”. which was criticised by the Guardian on the other hand, criticised his speech for sounding “mildly fascist”.

But over at British Rail, 1993 was proving to be another busy year. The Intercity 250 route upgrade was proving to be the most challenging project BR had ever undertaken, but at the same time, dealing with the Channel Tunnel Rail Link was proving to be much more daunting.

Intercity 250 was a completely in-house project, but constructing the CTRL had attracted the attention of many unwanted third parties, most notably werer Ove Arup. Who had been lobbying relentlessly since 1991 for the government to build the line through Stratford, rather than through BR’s treasured Southern Approach through Peckham.

The project was kicked into the long grass in 1991, due to the dawning general election the next year. And BR’s southern route, which according to Atkins would require the demolition of over 5000 houses, would be a sore point for the dilapidated party. Whereas Ove-Arup’s rival route via East London and Stratford to Kings Cross would affect just over 100 houses. However it later transpired in a 2003 article by the Daily Telegraph, that the Channel Tunnel Rail Link was turning out to be as explosive as the Westland Affair. Politicians and consultants had tried to convince Thatcher that the eastern routing would be more politically viable, but she was adamant against spending money in the Labour stronghold of Newham-a similar sentiment she had her to the Chelsea to Hackney Line, which would pass through the Labour borough of Hackney.

Moreover, with Heseltine still lurking in the background, the eastern routing was quietly dropped by the party as it was his own personal preference, to create an East Thames Corridor should (when?) he become Prime Minister. In fact, he had privately written a letter to Michael Portillo asking if he could become his transport secretary, as he would like to oversee the construction of the CTRL. Portillo, never replied to his letter-apparently still furious for causing his near early termination of Thatcher’s leadership in 1990.

In early 1993, with a new government, hostile to the eastern route, British Rail argued that its Southern route would bring more value for money, seeing as more domestic Kent commuters would use a route that would run into familiar terminals, such as Waterloo or City Thameslink-via the proposed Warwick Gardens spur. The battle began between Arup and BR, with Arup retaling stating the eastern route attract more passengers by passing closer to Canary Wharf and Stratford being the site of a large scale regeneration project. In a counter strike to the Arup proposal, BR tweaked the Southern route to run via Lewisham, where a station could be built to interchange with a future Docklands Railway extension from Island Gardens. Unsurprisingly, Arup fired back once more, suggesting that Stratford allowed greater opportunities for regeneration and had better access to the Docklands.

But of course, BR pointed out Stratford would soon be connected to Crossrail and the Jubilee Line extension-ample amount of connections for regeneration. BR also proposed a junction which could also be placed at Lewisham with the Kent Link lines and the CTRL, allowing Kent domestic trains to access all south Eastern London terminals at Victoria, Blackfriars, Charing Cross and Cannon Street. BR once again hired Norman Foster, to come up with a “Lewisham Junction” station proposal, that would involve a large interchange station with the BR lines and the CTRL, with space for a Docklands Railway extension, and would rearrange the tangle of suburban lines in the lewisham area to allow a more frequent metro arrive across the 5 suburban branches and to promote regeneration in a run down part of London. However, even though Lewisham was a borough in and of itself and also a Labour stronghold, perhaps it was close enough to the Tory boroughs of Bexley and Bromley that the government would support it.

However the choice of BR’s southern route could be seen as an extreme case of the tail wagging the dog. In October 1992, Network South East began tentative design work on a high speed electric multiple unit that could work on the fast lines of the upgraded West Voast Main along the Class 93s. BR has a vague proposal for the class 342 Networker that would run on the CTRL, along with the class 371 “Thaneslink Express” Networker, that would be designers to take advantage of the higher line speeds on the East Coast Mainline . NSE combined the two to create a train that would run from the WCML, into the trough the CTRL tunnel via Kings Cross and London Bridge then onto the Kent Towns. However,as Network South East grew from a unit of 1000s to 10,000s, following the Organising to Quality project under BR, it began to gradually draw up its own competing CTRL route, that would bend the new BR route through London Bridge, creating a station there with access to the other side of the river. It was the perfect station for Eurostar services, being next to the City and just minutes from Canary Wharf and the West End via the Jubilee Line Extension.

In the meantime the Universal Networkers were being delivered for West Ham depot to commence testing on the LTS routes, while the Main Line Networkers entered into revenue earning service that summer. As 1993 turned into 1994, the first class 93 locomotive rolled off GEC-Alsthom’s production line at Crewe ready for testing. British Rail and London Transport were hoping to soon begin construction on Crossrail, but more unexpectedly, the Portillo government would put Railway privatisation on the agenda yet again.
 
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Right that’s 1993 done, now into 1994. Writing Portillo’s personality as PM wasn’t easy as judging by his behaviour in the 1995 leadership election in OTL, he seemed to be an indecisive and almost sheepish figure. I think the Tories will see their mistake not backing Heseltine when Blair takes power, seeing as they were both cut from the same cloth.

I think without John Major as PM and Heseltine out of the Cabinet, the routing of HS1 in OTL will be less likely in the ATL, seeing as it was Heseltine himself who favoured the eastern route. BR had made all of the studies for the route through Peckham and assumed the government would pick its routing.

Still, now we’re getting closer to Crossrail, although from my latest reading I think you’ll need a lot of butterflies for it to be built at any time before 2000.

Anyway, hopefully that’ll put the Channel Tunnel Rail Link to rest for a while, since I’ve been reading up on it’s history since March...
 
Very nice update indeed.

Are other countries looking at what Britain and BR is doing and looking at revitalising/building their own inner and inter-city links and connections e.g the Paris inner railway ring?
 
Very nice update indeed.

Are other countries looking at what Britain and BR is doing and looking at revitalising/building their own inner and inter-city links and connections e.g the Paris inner railway ring?

Thanks :) I just realised it needs spellchecking again urgently, bare with me...

I think that if Government really does go for the tunnel under London CTRL proposal, it may catch the attention of the French for a line from Paris Nord to Lyon to allow greater connection for Eurostar passengers into Southern France. But then, they already have the “Interconnexion” which goes around Paris instead of through it.

I think the Americans would be interested in Intercity 250, seeing as they’ll be upgrading the Northeast Corridor at the same time and would want to see how we turn a slow existing railway into a high speed one. Perhaps the Acela Express trains would be large class 93s in OTL built in Britain, seeing as the British train buildingindustry won’t completely die a death in this timeline.
 
Part 7: May 1994- Nelson's Letter
The following letter below is taken from the British Rail archives, dated 12th May 1994, shortly after the cancellation of the CrossRail project- demonstrating the zeal and dynamism Network South East had in the 1990s.

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12th May 1994
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COMMENCEMENT ON PLANNING REPLACMENT FOR "SLAM DOOR" STOCK ON SUSSEX COAST SERVICES

Dear all,


It is a sad loss that the hard work that had gone into the creation of the CrossRail project seems to have been in vain, but we must not loose sight of the bigger picture-of improving standards, reliablity and capacity across our Network. I am sure the CrossRail team will continue their hard work to get this crucial piece of infrastructure built in time to face the demands of the new millenium-as will too, the team heading the Thameslink 2000 project.

Now let us focus on one of our more recent successes; the first full upgrade since the 1960s of the ex-Eastern division, now of course Kent Link and Kent Coast. With the introduction of the class 471s last summer, reliablity and passenger numbers have both increased by 80% and 5% respectively in only one year. From next year, there will be not be a single slam door operated unit east of Victoria or London Bridge. With the last class 471 set to roll of the production line at York next June, perhaps it is now the time to consider an order for an extra 65-80 vheicles for use on services to London, Brighton, Littlehampton and Eastbourne etc. These trains will be ready for service by 1995 at the latest, as testing has already been completed on the Kent Coast routes.

The Brighton Mainline is set to recieve an increase in capacity when Thameslink 2000 is finally built which, following the government's preffered choice for the southern routing of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, looks to be built in tandem with the works for the high-speed link sometime in the latter part of this decade. At the most pessimistic possiblity, Sussex Coast may not have any new rolling stock until 2001 and with the Wessex Electrics recently revolutionising long-distance expresses on the Solent and Wessex lines and class 159 replacing loco hauled traction on West of England services, we can't let Sussex Coast become the "sick man" of the former Southern Reigon.

Furthermore, our recently introduced "Capital Coast Express", a premier express service between Victoria and Brighton, would benefit from a new sub class of class 471 units, specifically tailored for the service-perhaps with curtains and lamps etc in first class compartments as per the existing "4BIG" stock. I propose the existing class 471s are renamed from the rather uninspriing "Main Line Networker", to "Kent Coast Networker" and "Sussex Coast Networker" for new batches on Sussex sservices, seeing as the batch of Universal and Thameslink Express Networkers will indeed both run on other mainlines.

For roughly £120 million, including improvments to Selhurst and Lovers Walk depots, the Sussex Coast services could be completely modernised by 1998.

I look forward to your responses.

John Nelson
Managing Director-Network South East
 
Okay, I'm not sure what's happened to the formatting but that post hasn't come out quite how I want it. The Sussex Coast logo was meant to be a letterhead, but seems stuck in that position. Oh well, just imagine its come from a piece of headed paper off a typewriter in 1994.
 
Just a quick summary of what trains have been butterflied away so far in the ATL.

Class 357-replaced by class 381
Class 377-replaced by class 471
Class 375-replaced by class 471/381s
Class 365-replaced by 471s, 381s and 371s
Class 360
Class 220/221 “Voyagers” will no longer exist in this timeline
Class 390 Pendolino-replaced by 250s

These trains will no longer exist. Also, now the British train manufacturing industry will survive, its possible the Desiro family will also no longer exist.

I hope the Railway aspects of the timeline isn’t too confusing for readers. If you need some more explanation of which trains are which, or indeed what a “Networker” is just let me know.

Is everyone enjoying the mix of trains and politics so far? Or would some prefer straight trains or straight politics?
 
I hope the Railway aspects of the timeline isn’t too confusing for readers. If you need some more explanation of which trains are which, or indeed what a “Networker” is just let me know.

Is everyone enjoying the mix of trains and politics so far? Or would some prefer straight trains or straight politics?

Do you have more pics of the changes classes that might help with the imagining please?

Also trains and politics are fine from me. Its fascinating to see what might have happened.

Didn't I read/see somewhere that BR made profit for the last few years of its life for the time?
 
Do you have more pics of the changes classes that might help with the imagining please?

Also trains and politics are fine from me. Its fascinating to see what might have happened.

Didn't I read/see somewhere that BR made profit for the last few years of its life for the time?

I do.

I know Network SouthEast definitely did, and I think Intercity made one before the recession. Seems like a bit of a waste to privatise them.

So the 5WES units keep the 444s off the Weymouth line? Do the 460s survive on the Gatwick Express?

I am not too sure just yet, because I need to find out why it was they were replaced in the first place. But then again if Network SouthEast survives past 2000 and keeps its own design team the 5Wes stock could still be replaced but by something completely different. Probably a second generation Networker.
 
Interesting that a few people think Thatcher could beat Blair, I wonder if they have an explanation of how...

Looks like it’s a three horse race between Clarke, Heseltine and Portillo so far.
 
Do the 460s survive on the Gatwick Express?

I don't think there would be any 460s as they are a post-Privatisation class. I have read that Intercity was considering some sort of High Speed Networker derivative to replace the 73 + Mk.2s used on the GatEx (and the hauled stock in East Anglia). Perhaps a version of the 481? There is also the possibility that the 442s could be replaced on the Weymouth Line and are cascaded to the GatEx as in @.
To be honest though, I'd love to see refurbished 73s and Mk.2s stay on the GatEx. :)

Interesting that a few people think Thatcher could beat Blair, I wonder if they have an explanation of how...

In 1997? No chance. The country was ready for a change by that point and the Iron Lady would be looking increasingly rusty and tired by then.
 
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I don't think there would be any 460s as they are a post-Privatisation class. I have read that Intercity was considering some sort of High Speed Networker derivative to replace the 73 + Mk.2s used on the GatEx (and the hauled stock in East Anglia). Perhaps a version of the 481? There is also the possibility that the 442s could be replaced on the Weymouth Line and are cascaded to the GatEx as in @.
To be honest though, I'd love to see refurbished 73s and Mk.2s stay on the GatEx. :)



In 1997? No chance. The country was ready for a change by that point and the Iron Lady would be looking increasingly rusty and tired by then.
Your right, so many trains will no longer exist because they were built “off the shelf” in OTL. Whereas BR would continue to design trains for the particular service pattern they would run i.e suburban, regional, long distance. I would suspect Intercity would replace them with the long-distance style Networkers designed for Thameslink 2000.

Yes I think 20 years as a PM is a bit much, interesting the majority is for Portillo. Judging by my research he wasn’t very well liked by the public as a politician. But then again he is personable, which is half the trick really when being a politician.
 
I doubt much could stop a Labour Win in 1997 - be interesting if the infamous Blair-Brown deal never happened, or did differently.

Also would the new Labour government continue the same Tory policies for 2 years that they did OTL wven without the Huge Stonking Majority they had?

Effect on Trains if Labour spend more? Early HS2? New Heathrow? More electrification? Reopening of closed stations/branches? Underground expansion into the suberbs? Major cities with working Tram systems?
 
I doubt much could stop a Labour Win in 1997 - be interesting if the infamous Blair-Brown deal never happened, or did differently.

Also would the new Labour government continue the same Tory policies for 2 years that they did OTL wven without the Huge Stonking Majority they had?

Effect on Trains if Labour spend more? Early HS2? New Heathrow? More electrification? Reopening of closed stations/branches? Underground expansion into the suberbs? Major cities with working Tram systems?

I'm not too sure what Labour will do yet, because it depends on what happens to Portillo. The Tories are gone by '97, but by that time either the public opinion of him grows quite favourable and he Blair, like Thatcher, gradually builds his popularity instead of it being there on day one, or Portillo ends up in dire straits and needs an early election and so his popularity declines sooner in the 2000s. The Iraq war will happen regardless of whether or not Thatcher steps down in 1990 so it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I don't think HS2 will happen in this timeline because I think BR will rightly or wrongly adopt a "upgrade all the mainlines" approach. It'll probably go down the German route and have cut offs here and threre rather than a grand French style system that HS2 is.

I think new Labour were pro Cliffe on the Isle of Sheppy-not sure why that wasn't built in OTL so that might be a Heathrow replacement.

If Darling is still Co", then light rail is still a no. The Underground will be different depending what happens with Chelsea to Hackney. To get a bigger underground, you need to either stop WW2 from happening or the post war economic decline which would be a complicated TL.

As far as rail projects goes are there any plans to establish a route from Waterloo to Heathrow in this scenario?

This is something that is looked at in OTL at the end of the 1990s/ early 2000s, which is a part of my book I need to read! But in OTL there was a plan for a Heathrow to St. Pancras service although that was dead by 1999.
 
This is something that is looked at in OTL at the end of the 1990s/ early 2000s, which is a part of my book I need to read! But in OTL there was a plan for a Heathrow to St. Pancras service although that was dead by 1999.

Know there were quite a number of Heathrow proposals over the years.
 
While I have been mentioning a lot of what to some, might be seemingly random classes of trains, in this post I'll put some "faces" if you will to some of the new trains that will be built in this timeline. Please note that some of the pictures seem to hold differing designs of trains, and some illustrations are a bit vauge as to which train is actually which. However I've done what I've can to trawl through almost 30 years of railway history to find out as much about these trains as possible.

Class 93

To those of you sick of hearing me talk about Intercity 250 without knowing what on Earth I'm talking about, the fine train below is what could have existed instead of the Virgin Pendolino we have in our timeline.

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Class 471 "Main Line Networker"


The train that replaced older stock on Kent Link and Sussex Coast services which in our timeline, never recieved funding from the Major government. Its replacement is the Class 365 in OTL. I'm not too sure of the design of this train, it looks a bit creepy if I'm honest.

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