Tang sinicize Central Asia, Mongolia, North Korea

[octoberman]

what if Tang retain these borders until 10th century and Sinicize all their territory like caliphate islamize it's territory ?

POD is Gaozong remains healthly and kill Wu for instrigues and retains the empire's borders

 

[Silver01]

i made tang dominion of central asia last up until now in my timeline until the 10th century how ever despite sending families to anxi and beyond ( the tang rule a lot of lands) they never replace the Turkic majority simply put the tang would not send that many to make them Chinese may be enough to the tarrim basin to erase the Tocharians but the Sogdians and Turks remain the majority what I see occurring as mix as seen by the otl the western laio, the Turkic elite rule a multi-cultural society while having Chinese influences even more than the western Liao
and still think this would occur in your scenario

 

[Janrey]

Very difficult, the caliphate had the advantage of controlling large rivers, seas and bodies of water that made governance and cultural influence in those places easier. The Chinese core is simply too far away.

 

[tonsofun]

They can sinicize some, but not all. The easiest lands to sinicize are those closest to home. But even those require a regular supply of people coming in. After that, the locals have to either assimilate or move elsewhere.

 

[octoberman]

Very difficult, the caliphate had the advantage of controlling large rivers, seas and bodies of water that made governance and cultural influence in those places easier. The Chinese core is simply too far away.

Chinese controlled oxus and jaxates just like caliphate did

 

[octoberman]

i made tang dominion of central asia last up until now in my timeline until the 10th century how ever despite sending families to anxi and beyond ( the tang rule a lot of lands) they never replace the Turkic majority simply put the tang would not send that many to make them Chinese may be enough to the tarrim basin to erase the Tocharians but the Sogdians and Turks remain the majority what I see occurring as mix as seen by the otl the western laio, the Turkic elite rule a multi-cultural society while having Chinese influences even more than the western Liao
and still think this would occur in your scenario

why not ? china had a very large population to send settlers

 

[Silver01]

because not many families would want to cross the Taklamakan Desert

why not ? china had a very large population to send settlers

 

[Kokoda]

The Sinicization of Central Asia is possible but quite hard, I think the absolute limit would be OTL Kyrgyzstan and the basin of Lake Balkhash, where Han farmers could be sent there. Beyond that, it's only desert impossible to settle and even to control by the Chinese central power.

 

[Silver01]

The Sinicization of Central Asia is possible but quite hard, I think the absolute limit would be OTL Kyrgyzstan and the basin of Lake Balkhash, where Han farmers could be sent there. Beyond that, it's only desert impossible to settle and even to control by the Chinese central power.

the tang could do ala han and sent soldiers with their families to settle beyond the basin, but these numbers would be small that they would not replace the locals however it would lead to a mix of chinise culture with the local turks and Sogdians which would really interesting

 

[Kokoda]

the tang could do ala han and sent soldiers with their families to settle beyond the basin, but these numbers would be small that they would not replace the locals however it would lead to a mix of chinise culture with the local turks and Sogdians which would really interesting

A completely wanked China could theoretically reach the Caspian Sea, but that's almost ASB. A realistic China would probably seek to go no further than Kokand, and would only negotiate a loose alliance with the Sogdians to keep trade via the Silk Road undisturbed.

 

[Miyako]

POD is Gaozong remains healthly and kill Wu for instrigues and retains the empire's borders

You should know that Wu Zetian stabilized and consolidated the Tang Empire at a time when it appeared to be crumbling–a significant achievement, since the Tang period is reckoned the golden age of Chinese civilization.

 

[Ajobek]

To far from core of China to fully sinicize, however China can replace arab influence, and sedentary part of Central Asia may be look more like Korea, Japan and Vietnam. While nomad part of Central Asia will be like Manchus before conquest of China.

 

[Avrorrange]

You should know that Wu Zetian stabilized and consolidated the Tang Empire at a time when it appeared to be crumbling–a significant achievement, since the Tang period is reckoned the golden age of Chinese civilization.

Err no. Her illegal seizure of power caused multiple rebellions. Externally, the Turks completely broke away and armies sent to subdue the empire’s enemies met major reverses due to Wu Zetian being only willing to entrust the army to her nephews. The main reason why she wasn’t condemned had to do with the fact that all the subsequent Tang emperors were her descendants.

 

[Silver01]

A completely wanked China could theoretically reach the Caspian Sea, but that's almost ASB. A realistic China would probably seek to go no further than Kokand, and would only negotiate a loose alliance with the Sogdians to keep trade via the Silk Road undisturbed.

They already went further beyond fergana in otl of course with them vassalizing not directly control still depend how long central Asia would be tang vassals

 

[Miyako]

Err no. Her illegal seizure of power caused multiple rebellions. Externally, the Turks completely broke away and armies sent to subdue the empire’s enemies met major reverses due to Wu Zetian being only willing to entrust the army to her nephews. The main reason why she wasn’t condemned had to do with the fact that all the subsequent Tang emperors were her descendants.

Wu Zetian's character and achievements have been debated by historians over the centuries. Some viewed her as a ruthless and power-hungry leader who used any means necessary to gain and maintain her position of authority. Others saw her as a capable and intelligent ruler who brought stability, prosperity, and cultural advancements to China during her reign.

During her rule, Wu Zetian implemented a series of reforms that benefited the country, including expanding the education system, promoting Buddhism, and improving the civil service. She also oversaw the construction of several public works, including a new canal that facilitated trade and transportation.

Overall, Wu Zetian's legacy is mixed, with some historians viewing her as a talented ruler who made significant contributions to China's development, while others see her as a power-hungry and ruthless tyrant who was lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time.

You can't really paint her in one color.

 

[Lord Enot]

is it even possible ?

Not possible. Some hellish logistics + constant conflicts with nomads + conflicts with Caliphates/Muslim Empires. It's like trying to add 3 hands to yourself through an operation

 

[Silver01]

Not possible. Some hellish logistics + constant conflicts with nomads + conflicts with Caliphates/Muslim Empires. It's like trying to add 3 hands to yourself through an operation

you can do away the caliphate and just deal with the first two

 

[Louayk]

If someone going to sinicize something it's gonna be empress Wu people seriously needs to stop underestimate her , that being said china is trying to sinicize Xinjiang now despite having it for 1000+ years it's geography problem really so the answer is no for the central asia and Mongolia

 

[Nuraghe]

guys i think we are forgetting something, if the Tang dynasty is more successful here i could easily see successful attempts to support the Sassanid dynasty in regaining their throne ( this also weakens the caliphate ) this also makes Persia a chinese satellite state ( because if I'm not mistaken the last descendant of the Shas had sought refuge at the Chinese court )

 

[Lord Enot]

you can do away the caliphate and just deal with the first two

To solve the third problem, it will be necessary to climb into the Middle East. To fight with nomads on a permanent basis, not on their lands + on the steppes is suicide. Typically, the Chinese most often defeated strong nomadic empires with the help of intrigues or lured them to places that were not convenient for nomads. Because, well, it's pretty hard to fight against the "Hit and Run" tactics when your archers + horses are much worse.