Sword Dueling Among Inner City Gangs

[Damnation]

I have an idea for an alternate timeline where sword dueling continues among inner-city black gangs to the present day. While the practice was a relatively niche phenomenon that began amongst black officers after the Civil War, it continued underground as a part of black honor culture, with (illegal) spectator fighting continuing well into the early 20th century. However, the friction caused by black soldiers challenging their white peers to duels during WWI and WWII caused the Federal Government to crack down on dueling, and it soon became extinct. The practice was revived by Black Nationalists starting in the 60's, who began to view it as an important and distinctive part of black culture, with those not participating viewed as dishonorable and publically shamed.
The practice was actually encouraged by community leaders following the crack epidemic as a less lethal way to settle disputes between rival gangs, with the rights to deal drugs on particular corners settled by champion duels. These fights were generally to first blood, and deaths are neither expected nor uncommon. Both sides generally used the same type of sword, many of which were heirlooms dating back to the Civil War, with a preference for cavalry sabers. Although still technically illegal under US law, there are some jurisdictions where it is decriminalized.
Do you guys have any ideas for more world-building? I really like the idea of full-scale gang wars with katanas.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Why wouldn't they use guns?

 

[MFOM]

Why can't they just have dance offs like breakin'2 Electric Boogaloo?

 

[Lord High Executioner]

a preference for cavalry sabers.

full-scale gang wars with katanas.

Make up your mind.
(And surely Black Nationalists, if they didn't want to stick with cavalry sabres, would have gone looking for a proper African sword.)

Also, if swordfighting is illegal and associated with both Black Nationalists AND street gangs, it will get stomped
on hard and fast.

Finally, are you familiar with academic fencing or mensur, the German tradition of sabre fencing in order to get a bad-ass facial scar?
(Wikipedia)
I can sort of imagine something inspired by that catching on in some circles rather than proper swordfighting and duels, especially if
someone brings in a very jumbled version of "Scarification is a major aspect mof African cultures and cultural practice among African ethnic groups".
(Wikipedia)

 

[Lautréamont]

Why wouldn't they use guns?

If I understand OP correctly, he's thinking of alternate gang codes of honor. Using a gun on gang turf would mean putting a target on your back, that sort of thing.

@Damnation hm, not sure if you need a different WW2 for this. IOTL, sword dueling was something the - very white - wartime enemy did, see @Lord High Executioner's first link. Hollywood got that one right, Nazis were indeed likelier than the average person to have facial scars from saber duels. Academic fencing is still practiced in some right-wing student fraternities in the Germanosphere, though it's been made safer after WW2 and has more in common with sport fencing than sword dueling these days.

 

[Nivek]

Why wouldn't they use guns?

Stronger gun control laws? Or firearms crime is a felony vs a minor offense of a cold weapon?

 

[Steve Brinson]

I think the issue there is, even if guns were unavailable, swords are both impossible to hide and impossible to justify for any other purpose. Even in self-defense, they're hugely cumbersome to carry around, and the point of that kind of weapon (no pun intended) is to be ready at any time. And once the narrative inevitably becomes "roving gangs of Black people are going to stab you to death with giant swords", there are going to be crackdowns, and those crackdowns are likely to succeed because swords aren't Constitutionally protected and are, again, very difficult to hide.

You could maybe do something with smaller knives - but obviously knife-fighting is just a totally qualitatively different thing. I know capoeira does things with cane swords, which is maybe feasible in some edge cases? But I don't think you can plausibly have serious sword duels where people actually die in the American context, because either the authorities are able to successfully crack down on the practice (and I don't think community leaders promoting it as an alternative to guns would make much of a difference there - and I honestly can't see anyone saying "deadly fighting is okay, just don't do it with guns") or the gangs just up and resort to pistols.

It is an interesting mental image, though.

 

[Lautréamont]

there are going to be crackdowns, and those crackdowns are likely to succeed because swords aren't Constitutionally protected

Well, if we want to be originalist about it... the 2nd does grant the right to bear arms. All of them, not just firearms.

 

[Steve Brinson]

Well, if we want to be originalist about it... the 2nd does grant the right to bear arms. All of them, not just firearms.

True - I thought I remembered case law that said differently, but maybe not. At the same time, I do have a hard time seeing courts and legislatures using (to put it bluntly) the same relaxed standard they use for white-coded gun ownership in the context of inner-city Blacks, no matter the case law.

(This does remind me of an old @machinekng wikibox that had a militia legally incorporate under the cover of a historical reenactment society.)

 

[Lord High Executioner]

But I don't think you can plausibly have serious sword duels where people actually die in the American context

With the right cultural shifts or non-shifts you might, just not as a specifically/primarily black or gang thing.
(A quick googling implies that the rise of modern financial institutions helped putting an end to it in the U.S. South. Wikipedia, again.)

 

[shearsforest]

I have an idea for an alternate timeline where sword dueling continues among inner-city black gangs to the present day. While the practice was a relatively niche phenomenon that began amongst black officers after the Civil War, it continued underground as a part of black honor culture, with (illegal) spectator fighting continuing well into the early 20th century. However, the friction caused by black soldiers challenging their white peers to duels during WWI and WWII caused the Federal Government to crack down on dueling, and it soon became extinct. The practice was revived by Black Nationalists starting in the 60's, who began to view it as an important and distinctive part of black culture, with those not participating viewed as dishonorable and publically shamed.
The practice was actually encouraged by community leaders following the crack epidemic as a less lethal way to settle disputes between rival gangs, with the rights to deal drugs on particular corners settled by champion duels. These fights were generally to first blood, and deaths are neither expected nor uncommon. Both sides generally used the same type of sword, many of which were heirlooms dating back to the Civil War, with a preference for cavalry sabers. Although still technically illegal under US law, there are some jurisdictions where it is decriminalized.
Do you guys have any ideas for more world-building? I really like the idea of full-scale gang wars with katanas.

"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, as I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee. Have at thee, coward!"

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Make up your mind.
(And surely Black Nationalists, if they didn't want to stick with cavalry sabres, would have gone looking for a proper African sword.)

Where would they get African swords? They're not exactly a common market item, if there's any sword you're mostly likely to get your hands on in America it's a katana.

I think the issue there is, even if guns were unavailable, swords are both impossible to hide and impossible to justify for any other purpose. Even in self-defense, they're hugely cumbersome to carry around, and the point of that kind of weapon (no pun intended) is to be ready at any time. And once the narrative inevitably becomes "roving gangs of Black people are going to stab you to death with giant swords", there are going to be crackdowns, and those crackdowns are likely to succeed because swords aren't Constitutionally protected and are, again, very difficult to hide.

You could maybe do something with smaller knives - but obviously knife-fighting is just a totally qualitatively different thing. I know capoeira does things with cane swords, which is maybe feasible in some edge cases? But I don't think you can plausibly have serious sword duels where people actually die in the American context, because either the authorities are able to successfully crack down on the practice (and I don't think community leaders promoting it as an alternative to guns would make much of a difference there - and I honestly can't see anyone saying "deadly fighting is okay, just don't do it with guns") or the gangs just up and resort to pistols.

It is an interesting mental image, though.

There was already the OTL fearmongering over roving gangs of delinquents armed with switchblades that became a cultural staple in the 1950's and provoked legislation against the sale of switchblades. If anything though all it might've accomplished was accelerated the process of these gangs transferring to using guns to settle their disputes.

 

[Lord High Executioner]

Where would they get African swords? They're not exactly a common market item, if there's any sword you're mostly likely to get your hands on in America it's a katana.

I was
a) thinking of the suggested start in the 1960s, although admittedly katanas would presumably be among the easier swords to acquire in
the U.S. then as well; and
b) expecting someone to manufacture them - it's not as if all katana on the market today are heirlooms and world war 2 surplus. If a
demand for, say, takuba or kaskara, arises in the U.S. someone will endeavour to supply them or swords of a similar design.

I may have been thinking a bit too much/hard from the Black Nationalist perspective and not from cool factor/fashion and
availability.

 

[marathag]

There was already the OTL fearmongering over roving gangs of delinquents armed with switchblades that became a cultural staple in the 1950's and provoked legislation against the sale of switchblades.

exactly.
And there were not a lot of swords around from war surplus or anything like that, with the burning down of Bannermans after WWI

 

[Arkenfolm]

I think the issue there is, even if guns were unavailable, swords are both impossible to hide and impossible to justify for any other purpose. Even in self-defense, they're hugely cumbersome to carry around, and the point of that kind of weapon (no pun intended) is to be ready at any time. And once the narrative inevitably becomes "roving gangs of Black people are going to stab you to death with giant swords", there are going to be crackdowns, and those crackdowns are likely to succeed because swords aren't Constitutionally protected and are, again, very difficult to hide.

In some states (although local laws vary) it is legal to open carry a sword because the knife laws did not specify how long a knife is permitted to be nor use language like "is used as a tool or for utility purposes." I would assume that would change in this scenario for the same reason all sorts of knives are banned (and handguns for that matter).

b) expecting someone to manufacture them - it's not as if all katana on the market today are heirlooms and world war 2 surplus. If a
demand for, say, takuba or kaskara, arises in the U.S. someone will endeavour to supply them or swords of a similar design.

I could see swords being marketed to that community as "authentic Egyptian" (given black nationalist fascination with Egypt) but I somehow doubt they'd be authentically an Egyptian design and not some generic design with an Egyptian theme.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

I may have been thinking a bit too much/hard from the Black Nationalist perspective and not from cool factor/fashion and
availability.

I could see swords being marketed to that community as "authentic Egyptian" (given black nationalist fascination with Egypt) but I somehow doubt they'd be authentically an Egyptian design and not some generic design with an Egyptian theme.

Black nationalism isn't really a big thing with gang subculture, if anything it's partially a reaction against it and black nationalists/black power activists tend to criticize gangs more sharply than anyone else and treat them as a symptom of white oppression. It's kind of a meme that they blame the government for putting crack on the streets in the first place.

 

[PMN1]

Depends what happens when the head is taken off?

 

[Analytical Engine]

Assuming duelling is technically illegal (or mostly, but is still allowed in some places), but it is still legal to manufacture swords, wouldn't something like a fencing foil or a cavalry sabre be more common than a katana ITTL? And, probably, easier to make.

"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, as I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee. Have at thee, coward!"

Great, you have given me flashbacks to English class. Three years of studying that play has rather put me off Shakespeare.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Doesn't/didn't the UK have a wave of "machete brawls"?

I imagine that'd be the model for what this would typically look like; cheap readily available blades that can somewhat easily be explained away with "it's for yard work".

 

[Damnation]

It would probably make more sense as a relatively rare honor duel system, where it is used as a less lethal way to settle disputes. So if two gangs want to call a truce, or two guys who really hate each other want a socially acceptable opportunity to kill each other, they can make a formal invitation to a duel. As long as the challenged party agrees to the fight, win or lose, honor is gained. The duels themselves are semi-public affairs, and failing to show or yielding before first blood is to show that you're a coward, which really hurts advancement in criminal gangs, meaning the leadership are often times expert duelists. Gang initiations oftentimes involve participating in a "duel" in which blocking or dodging is almost impossible (much like mensur), and result in a degree of ritual scarification (the FBI has experts who can tell apart Crip and Blood scarification patterns).
Slashing swords are favored over stabbing swords due to the reduction in lethality, which is why the cavalry saber is often times for honor duels. And yes, I want the Romeo and Juliet movie with DeCaprio to be real.

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