Sweden joined Allied Powers after German invasion of Denmark 1940

In the original timeline, Sweden stayed neutrality after the German airborne takeover of Oslo and the German Wehrmacht soldiers invasion of entire Norway in a gradual forwarding pace in northward direction. The reason Sweden stayed neutrality was the importance of the transported iron ore that need the fuelling for the German transportation and railway fuel and war machinery. The Germans needed iron ore imported from Sweden to maintained self-sufficient for the vehicles fuels during the wintertime. This was result of German invasion of Norway in an effort to secure much of captured naval bases to prevent British naval fleet sailing at Norway who want a fully security to protect the western Scandinavian region.

But let's say Sweden heard the German attacking of Denmark that marked the preparedness German takeover of Norway, the neighboring friendly country at the east with Sweden. On April 11, Swedish Prime Minister Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp announced on the radio and telegram throughout Sweden that the Swedish government has declared war on Germany as an effort to help and protect slacked Norwegian military forces around Norway by directing major efforts to maintained northern Norway as remaining Allied territories. This would meant the fully denial of German workers and military forces to have an access for Swedish iron ore to maintain Hitler's economy full war production.
What could be the impact if Sweden joined Allied to declared war against Axis powers Germany in an effort to highly prevented entire Norway country collapsed by the outnumbered superior Nazi German troops? Would British troops being sent to Sweden to protect the importance economic industrial interests at Stockholm?
 
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Lots of "Rotterdams" are happening to Swedish cities as the Luftwaffe bombs away, and a handful of German divisions are invading the south. I hope it was worth it for Swedish leadership to expose their people to this.

Certainly the Allies can retake Trodenheim and Narvik though.
 
Certainly the Allies can retake Trodenheim and Narvik though.

In terms of grand strategy this I think is the key. a solid hold on Narvik creates a northern version of the African front. Where Britain can use its its naval power to at least some extent. It can be argued the Wehrmacht can drive the Brits out of this are, but its going to cost a hefty price in terms of reduction of combat power elsewhere. Assuming the Scandinavian Front is not eradicated it makes for a entry point for early deployment of the US Army.
 
It will be very unpleasant for the Swedish population but I don't think it will be a walk over for the Germans either. The Swedish Navy was powerful enough that the Germans might really struggle in the short term after the losses inflicted by the RN during Weserübung and the Army was quite good as well. Germany would "probably" win but it might require a large enough diversion of troops from the West that the invasion of the Low Countries is significantly delayed or outright canceled which has major knock-on effects. Give the Allies even more time to mobilize, train, and equip new divisions; roll out new equipment; etc...
 
What would Sweden's post war gains would be? I see nothing of value to be obtained... unless Sweden wishes to assert regional leadeship in order to reform the Kalmar Union after the war. OTOH Sweden might be the key to a early and categorical German defeat. No iron ore plus the Swedish navy joining the Royal Navy means that German industry will have a very hard time executing Barbarossa or the Battle of Britain. Even Norway would probably survive or be disputed for a long time.
 
Certainly the Allies can retake Trodenheim and Narvik though.
If the Allies retake and hold Narvik Germany is permanently crippled, even if they beat the Swedes. That cuts the German supply of iron completely in the winter months, and as such will drastically hurt German industry, which already had too little steel.
 
Sweden gets overrun but not before a stoppage of exports to Germany puts a temporary hurt on German war industry.
The men lost in the invasion and the manpower and resources needed to Garrison Sweden would mean fewer resources to be alloted to other fronts.
The effects of that would be noticed in the winter of 41/42 and really felt in 43
 
If the Allies retake and hold Narvik Germany is permanently crippled, even if they beat the Swedes. That cuts the German supply of iron completely in the winter months, and as such will drastically hurt German industry, which already had too little steel.
This is the British important task war force to maintained the important navy port for the last holdout bastioned of Northern Norway as the German Luftwaffe distracted to try to crippled the Swedish Navy at Baltic Sea and even several distracted German Army divisions changed the direction to invade southwestern Sweden first to secure important landmarks and important town places with holdout Swedish warfare. Even if Oslo quickly fell to German Army, the Norwegian temporarily military and government capital would be at Trondheim to maintain the positions on frontline stalemate throughout summer 1940.
 
Could the Germans get the Soviets in on this take down of Sweden, they control the Baltics at this point, have a decent enough navy to battle the Swedes?
 
Could the Germans get the Soviets in on this take down of Sweden, they control the Baltics at this point, have a decent enough navy to battle the Swedes?
given how finland was a pain in the ass pre-continuation war, i don't think the russian men would have a good time. and there's the matter of how will russia deal with the occupation? otl, they made a point to not integrate territory that the Russian empire never controlled, but would they be able to control a puppet across finland and the baltic, away from their army?
 
I can't see Sweden suddenly just changing its policy of neutrality if then Germany is not violator of Swedish neutrality. Joining to the war wouldn't bring any benefit for Sweden beside Britain and USA being bit more friendly for Sweden when it is not trading with Germany. And even if Sweden decides to declare war to Germany, Wehcmacht and Luftwaffe would run over Sweden altough not that easily as Norway. Any Swede wouldn't be happy with that PM who decided commit such stupidity.
 
Sweden's PM gets lynched for violating Sweden's neutrality tradition and for going to war with a nation they would obviously lose against, a war Sweden did not have to join. Germany gets makes propaganda as Sweden as the aggressor nation.


Let me ask you one question based on your history in this website :

Do you actually give thought to your questions before you ask them?
 
Lots of "Rotterdams" are happening to Swedish cities as the Luftwaffe bombs away, and a handful of German divisions are invading the south. I hope it was worth it for Swedish leadership to expose their people to this.

Certainly the Allies can retake Trodenheim and Narvik though.
That's if members of the Swedish government already don't get beaten up then have their bodies kicked by an angry mob of Swedes who got forced in an AGGRESSIVE war.
 

mattep74

Kicked
In the original timeline, Sweden stayed neutrality after the German airborne takeover of Oslo and the German Wehrmacht soldiers invasion of entire Norway in a gradual forwarding pace in northward direction. The reason Sweden stayed neutrality was the importance of the transported iron ore that need the fuelling for the German transportation and railway fuel and war machinery. The Germans needed iron ore imported from Sweden to maintained self-sufficient for the vehicles fuels during the wintertime. This was result of German invasion of Norway in an effort to secure much of captured naval bases to prevent British naval fleet sailing at Norway who want a fully security to protect the western Scandinavian region.

But let's say Sweden heard the German attacking of Denmark that marked the preparedness German takeover of Norway, the neighboring friendly country at the east with Sweden. On April 11, Swedish Prime Minister Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp announced on the radio and telegram throughout Sweden that the Swedish government has declared war on Germany as an effort to help and protect slacked Norwegian military forces around Norway by directing major efforts to maintained northern Norway as remaining Allied territories. This would meant the fully denial of German workers and military forces to have an access for Swedish iron ore to maintain Hitler's economy full war production.
What could be the impact if Sweden joined Allied to declared war against Axis powers Germany in an effort to highly prevented entire Norway country collapsed by the outnumbered superior Nazi German troops? Would British troops being sent to Sweden to protect the importance economic industrial interests at Stockholm?
What is the POD for Bramstorp being PM in 1940 and not Per-Albin Hansson?

You do know how poorly equipped Swedens army was in 1940? We had yet to build up. In 1943 Sweden had built up its defences and could say no to Germany.

And how would British troops get to Sweden considering the difficulties they had just getting to Narvik? And as soon as France is attacked those troops are going home.
 
What is the POD for Bramstorp being PM in 1940 and not Per-Albin Hansson?

You do know how poorly equipped Swedens army was in 1940? We had yet to build up. In 1943 Sweden had built up its defences and could say no to Germany.
The Swedish representatives persuaded PM at least mobilized much of troops to use the defensive border between German occupied territories Norway and Sweden border to buy much time to regroup Norwegian Army forces in an effort regain the morale at northern Norway. This could disrupt the German military coordinations on whether to captured entire Norway first thus prevented more British army landing at Major safe coastal spots or invade Sweden first but delayed takeover entire Norway in mid-1940. The purpose of Swedish declaration war on Germany was the boosting helpful for Allied to intimidate the German navy and army from crossing much of Norway. Maybe Swedish military purpose was to rejected Swedish authorities consent on German access for huge Swedish iron ore. The Swedes planned at least disrupted German military formations throughout fall and winder 1940 as German attempted to integrate major war machinery.
 
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The Swedish representatives persuaded PM at least mobilized much of troops to use the defensive border between German occupied territories Norway and Sweden border to buy much time to regroup Norwegian Army forces in an effort regain the morale at northern Norway. This could disrupt the German military coordinations on whether to captured entire Norway first thus prevented more British army landing at Major safe coastal spots or invade Sweden first but delayed takeover entire Norway in mid-1940. The purpose of Swedish declaration war on Germany was the boosting helpful for Allied to intimidate the German navy and army from crossing much of Norway. Maybe Swedish military purpose was to rejected Swedish authorities consent on German access for huge Swedish iron ore. The Swedes planned at least disrupted German military formations throughout fall and winder 1940 as German attempted to integrate major war machinery.
Those Swedish representatives get voted out of power ASAP and the Swedish PM gets voted out in a motion of no confidence.


Why is it that you have a habit of ignoring and dodging questions that directly attacks your point and ignoring constructive criticism?
 
In the original timeline, Sweden stayed neutrality after the German airborne takeover of Oslo and the German Wehrmacht soldiers invasion of entire Norway in a gradual forwarding pace in northward direction. The reason Sweden stayed neutrality was the importance of the transported iron ore that need the fuelling for the German transportation and railway fuel and war machinery. The Germans needed iron ore imported from Sweden to maintained self-sufficient for the vehicles fuels during the wintertime. This was result of German invasion of Norway in an effort to secure much of captured naval bases to prevent British naval fleet sailing at Norway who want a fully security to protect the western Scandinavian region.

But let's say Sweden heard the German attacking of Denmark that marked the preparedness German takeover of Norway, the neighboring friendly country at the east with Sweden. On April 11, Swedish Prime Minister Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp announced on the radio and telegram throughout Sweden that the Swedish government has declared war on Germany as an effort to help and protect slacked Norwegian military forces around Norway by directing major efforts to maintained northern Norway as remaining Allied territories. This would meant the fully denial of German workers and military forces to have an access for Swedish iron ore to maintain Hitler's economy full war production.
What could be the impact if Sweden joined Allied to declared war against Axis powers Germany in an effort to highly prevented entire Norway country collapsed by the outnumbered superior Nazi German troops? Would British troops being sent to Sweden to protect the importance economic industrial interests at Stockholm?

First of all, Per-Albin Hansson was the Prime Minister of Sweden in 1940, not Axel Pehrsson-Bramstorp.

Secondly, the scenario is very unlikely. Sweden, for all its common history with and sympathy for Finland did not declare war on the Soviet Union when it attacked Finland - despite the Soviet ability to strike at Sweden being severely limited - both in trade and supply and in military terms - compared to Germany. That Sweden would declare war against Germany when it was unwilling to do so agains the Soviets (with Russia being the historical arch-enemy of Sweden, not Germany) is borderline ASB.

Germany supplied almost all of Sweden's need of coal, and Sweden was way more dependent on German coal than Germany ever was on Swedish iron ore. Swedish iron ore was convenient for Germany, since the high ore content and ability to ship it by sea and then river barge to Rurh made a ton of steel made from Swedish ore cost about half in resources and money compared to steel made from domestic German ore, even when facturing in the transport costs. Sweden would not go to war with Germany without having secured a supply of coal first. Sweden needed coal and coke for its own steel production, to run its electrical generation plants (Swedish railroads were electrified and without coal the trains would stop since electricity would become scarce). Swedish hospitals also ran their own backup power and disinfection and laundry steam generation on coal. Not even speaking of producer gas in the cities running on water-coke-gas.

Sweden's army at this time was defensively focused and lacked the ability to quickly and decisively attack and knock out German forces - in some cases, it was downright bad. However, the Germans used their C-team in Norway (no troops outside the 3. Gebirgs-division had any mortars, the mean training time was 90 days and a week or two's preparation for the invasion).

The Germans lack the ability to invade Sweden at the same time as Norway and Denmark, and Scandinavia was a secondary front for them - they will be unwilling to dedicate a lot of their air force from the front and the planend great offensive in the west, but they can certainly commit enough to overpower the almost non-existant Norwegian and small Swedish air forces.

Sweden had on the 9th of April 100 000 men along the border with Finland, which had been "topped" with the most and the best equipment of the army as well as trained during the Winter War. These were however in the process of demobilising and on their way home when Denmark and Norway were invaded. The aid sent to Finland and the "topping" of that Army Corps (2 divisions) had drained the army stocks, and there was a LOT of confusion during the Swedish mobilisation - which was aided by the fact that the Germans demanded that Sweden do not mobilise and Sweden calling it a "readiness increase" instead, which made some depots withold things like ammunition and uniforms that were earmarked for a mobilisation before the confusion was cleared.

However, Sweden knew that Germany was not coming for them in April 1940 - Swedish intelligence, a combination of diplomatic sources, military espionage and contacts with civilians was pretty good and warned Norway four times before the invasion - in the 31st of March, on the 6th of April and twice on the 8th of April.

The Swedish Supreme Commander, noting the German buildup suggested a Swedish partial mobilisation on the 4th of April, to go into effect on the 6th, but was denied, partially since the government knew the Germans were not coming for Sweden.

There is a way to make this happen, or at least make Sweden treat Norway like it treated Finland - declare itself non-belligrent rather than neutral and actively send aid and volunteers.

Sweden had a debate on defence policy and foreign policy in the 30s, with the "either-or" faction faving the "traditionalist" faction. The "either-or" faction, in the military haded by Colonel (later General and Supreme Commander) Helge Jung and Major General Axel Rappe and in foreign policy by Foreign Minister Rickard Sandler argued that Sweden either needed an army at the 1914 level in order to defend itself properly, or it needed to form defensive treaties with its neighbours to come to each other's aid if they were attacked as defined by the League of Nations.

The Swedish military discussed defence cooperations with Finland in 1938. However, the question was a sensetive one in Finland and Mannerheim sent Colonel Airo, one of his closest associates and a very hardline Finnish nationalist to head the Finnish delegation. Finland was in the midst of a conflict regarding language where Finnish-speakers and nationalists resented the traditonal Swedish-speaking upper class and their power and wealth. Sending Airo seemed like a good move by Mannerheim, since he probably considered the negotiations a done deal, since both nations wanted the same thing - a defensive pact and cooperation, and any deal negotiated by the known nationalist Airo would probably be accepted by other nationalists (who viewed the Swedish-speaking upper class' connections with Sweden with suspicion). However, Airo bungled the negotiations - he probably believed the Swedish military would never get the support of the politicians for any kind of deal and that the negotiations were a waste of time. So he insisted on not speaking Swedish (despite being fluent), so the negotiations had to be held in French, acted arrogantly and piled demands on top of each other and told the Swedish representatives that they were there to discuss what Sweden could do for Finland and not the other way around, so the negotiations ended in a failure.

This pretty much gutted the "either-or" faction in the Swedish military and when Sweden formed its grand coalition government and appointed a Supreme Commander, Thörnell, a known traditionalist got the position as Supreme Commander and Sandler was replaced by the German-friendly and staunchly neutral Christian Günther as Foreign Minister.

If you go back to 1936 and have the "either-or" faction in Sweden more successful, and Finland being more receptive of it, perhaps Mannerheim controlling Airo closer and Norway preparing a tiny bit more and being more receptive of any kind of defensive treaty, then you could get something like this scenario, or close to it. You also need the Norwegians to take the threat seriously in some way. The Norwegians considered it impossible for the Germans to attack them over a Royal Navy-controlled North Sea and believed that friendly relations with Britain and Sweden was all they needed to remain safe and did absolutely nothing to protect themselves despite multiple warnings. You won't see Sweden defend Norway if the Norwegians are not defending themselves. Case in point - during the first three weeks of the Winter War, Swedes were not very interested in helping, until it became clear the Finns were fighting like mad to defend themselves, then a huge surge of sympathy rushed through Swedish society and aid streamed to Finland.

However, you would need for the Germans to not take these deals seriously, as they know they do not have the capacity to fight Sweden and Norway at the same time before they have knocked France out of the war - if they take any kind of defensive treaty seriously they won't attack as OTL, as the German attack was reliant on Norwegian lack of a response, Swedish neutrality, audacity and a lot of luck.
 

Evans II

Banned
Three quick points:

Sweden’s immediate post-war reputation is not diminished for staying out of the war and making an absolute fortune from it. The Swedes profited greatly from German rearmament in the 1930s.

There might even be a post-war Nordic defence union and neutral Scandinavia during the Cold War.

The feelings of historical guilt that led directly to the open door refugee policy during the 2015 migration crisis are hand waved away. Maybe, Swedish immigration policy turn out more like Denmark’s.
 
The Swedish Army will be beaten badly by the Germans, who will be able to prevent the Swedish Navy from preventing an invasion of Scania via aerial superiority.

I would imagine the occupation would be relatively light touch, so long as the Iron Ore kept coming

I think it'd cause some issues though with the German Soviet pact, however. The status of Gotland, for example, could become a sticking point.
 
Here are several points if Swedish military and government declared war on Germany:
1. The German Luftwaffe swiftly used medium bombing first at Malmo and Helsingborg to eliminate key military targets, such as Swedish Air Bases and manufactured buildings for military and food, in southwestern Sweden. This has to be main priority to have German airborne troops to first occupy Malmo and Helsingborg after neutralized Swedish Air Force.
2. The German sent military barges from Denmark to swiftly occupy both cities with first 10,000 soldiers, whereas Luftwaffe continued major bombing at Swedish highways and roads, including several camp barracks, to prevent Swedish Army reinforcement from constantly start the offensive assaults.
3. Within 2 weeks, most of Swedish Air Force had almost collapsed from massive Luftwaffe bombing within southern Sweden, including capital Stockholm. The German Army from Norway attacked priority at Norwegian-Swedish border to push the advanced by first capture town of Karlstad at Lake Vanern. 18 days after Sweden declared war on Germany, the superiority German Army captured city of Gothenburg after much of badly Swedish Army couldn’t coordinate better barricades of counterattacks within the city. The Swedes were poorly trained on main strikes at counterattacks within roads due to poorly in captain lê combative actions holding the enemy attacks and limited weapon ammunition’s on small German casualties.
4. At the end of April 1940, Swedish Prime Minister announced ceasefire to German military after losing much of southwestern Swedish territories. Most of Stockholm residents disarrayed the ongoing plummeted military morale due to incapable holding the main frontline lines against superior German forces that left most of army divisions badly mauled. That current Swedish PM would be removed from power and replaced by pro-German Swedish military officials possible from coup d’etat. It is most likely that Sweden ended up as technically puppet state by Nazi Germany similar as German establishment of puppet state Vichy France. Southwestern Swedish region would became temporarily German occupied zones. Most of Swedish military personnel and POWs would be released as soon as Sweden knocked out of war.
 
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