Instead of Qui Gon dying in the first film Lucas has him die in the last and that is what changes Anakin from being a Jedi to being a Sith Lord named Darth Vader. He somehow blames the Jedi for the death. The first film is as OTL except he beats Maul. The second is still the Clone Wars and in the third you have the death of Qui Gon and the change to Vader. How would you make those changes?
Star Wars Prequel WI
- Thread starter Johnrankins
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Honestly, I don't like it. It dilutes Obi-Wan's role as a mentor figure, and you would reasonably expect Obi-Wan to lament that Anakin never listens to him as much as he does to Qui-Gon. I think I said this to you once in a discussion years ago, but for a tragic death in Episode III, it would be best if that was a non-comic relief Jar Jar, who'd been serving as Padme's aide and took a blaster shot or the like for her in a Separatist assassination attempt. That would give Anakin reason to fear for her life beyond the nebulous visions involving childbirth.
You could have Qui-Gon become a father figure to Anakin, with a more pronounced brotherly relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. The problem is the death of Qui-Gon is the catalyst for Count Dooku leaving the Jedi, joining the Sith and creating the separatists. Unless Maul is defeated but still alive and fully functioning, Sidious is going to need an apprentice.
What could be the tipping point for planets to actually want to secede from the Republic than used to bring in the Clones and all the militarization that followed?
What could be the tipping point for planets to actually want to secede from the Republic than used to bring in the Clones and all the militarization that followed?
You have a point with Obi Wan. Maybe the Jedi Council insists that Obi Wan trains Anakin because he is less close to the boy to begin with.
You merely have to change why Dooku left the Jedi. Maybe he thought Palpatine's predecessor was the last hope for an honest Republic and the vote of no confidence tips him over. He starts falling to the Dark Side and by the time Palpatine contacts him he is so corrupted by the Dark Side he no longer cares what started him on that path.
One question I have is would Liam Neilson be able to play Ras Al Gul or does he not have not enough time to do both?
I thought Dooku left the Jedi long before Qui Gon died and had already begun flirting with the dark side under the guidance of Lord Sidious?
The timeline is hazy, and probably more so now that so much stuff has been relegated to Legends. Still, I'm fairly certain he didn't leave the Order until after Naboo, nor did Sidious reveal his identity before then.
I'm going to wind up repeating this on every Star Wars prequels thread, but the problem with the movies was not the plots. They could have been better, but the problems with them weren't really any worse than similar problems with the Original Trilogies lot.
The main problems were the horrible miscasting of the lead role, the dialogue, Jar Jar Binks, Lucas' rustiness/ limitations as a director, and overuse of CGI, especially in the second movie which looks like a video game. The first movie was also the victim of expectations that were way too high.
One nice thing about the Prequels is how certain themes are echoed between them and the original trilogy, such as the mentor that gets cut down at the end of the first movie, so this change weakens the movie.
If you want to do something on similar lines, things probably would have worked slightly better if Obi Wan wasn't in the first movie, or brought in at the very end of the movie when the Jedi Council selects a trainer for Anakin. As has been pointed out by commentators elsewhere, he doesn't actually do much in that movie, so removing the character entirely loses very little and puts the focus more on Qui Gon, the stronger character. If Obi Wan is someone brought in at the last minute out of nowhere to train Anakin, the audience will sympathize more, and if he is held back until the second movie the plot actually accords with the information about the period given in the original trilogy for a change. As I stated earlier, it doesn't fix the prequels by any means but at least they flow a little better.
The main problems were the horrible miscasting of the lead role, the dialogue, Jar Jar Binks, Lucas' rustiness/ limitations as a director, and overuse of CGI, especially in the second movie which looks like a video game. The first movie was also the victim of expectations that were way too high.
One nice thing about the Prequels is how certain themes are echoed between them and the original trilogy, such as the mentor that gets cut down at the end of the first movie, so this change weakens the movie.
If you want to do something on similar lines, things probably would have worked slightly better if Obi Wan wasn't in the first movie, or brought in at the very end of the movie when the Jedi Council selects a trainer for Anakin. As has been pointed out by commentators elsewhere, he doesn't actually do much in that movie, so removing the character entirely loses very little and puts the focus more on Qui Gon, the stronger character. If Obi Wan is someone brought in at the last minute out of nowhere to train Anakin, the audience will sympathize more, and if he is held back until the second movie the plot actually accords with the information about the period given in the original trilogy for a change. As I stated earlier, it doesn't fix the prequels by any means but at least they flow a little better.
redlightning
Banned
I personally have long felt Qui-Gonn should've been fused into an older Obi-Wan Kenobi. It makes him a wiser character.
George Lucas' life is a better meta-version of the prequels. Take that story and film it: everyone loves this dude, we think he can do anything, we throw praise and ambition onto him, and he inspires so many, and then he gets burned out on it all and gets too big of an ego, his personal problems begin to push people away, his marriage disintegrates around the thing he loves, and he hides himself away in his personal empire, and then lashes out at critics for not understanding the secret greatness of what he does. Lucas was Luke. Lucas became Vader...benignly, because making poor latter day films and being kind of nerd rage in response to criticism is not the same as planetary genocide and evil. Nonetheless...
So Anakin is this simple farm boy that's a great pilot. Kenobi finds him and basically makes him his squire, and the two grow into friends. The Clone Wars come, and they are basically this galactic crusade, where armies go off with total optimism to be gone for years at a time. Anakin goes off on this greatest adventure with Kenobi, with whom he's gone on many other such idealistic missions before. However, this one changes him. The Crusade turns out to be a botch where the Republic, corrupt as it is, engages in wickedness itself. To fight the enemy and their darkness, Anakin gives in to darkness -- fire with fire. He and his wife grow apart as he is gone for years, he falls into temptation, and gradually takes on the same evil he had fought until he stands before a Palpatine who points this out to him and he falls to darkness. "The galaxy needs order or it falls to chaos. The Clone Wars proved this. The Republic is old and corrupt. The only thing that matters is force and fear. We shall be the one's to secure it", and additional epic dialogue.
I would go back to square one on everything, and throw out everything that is not from the original films. For example, the Clone Wars was strongly hinted at as being the Republic versus an army of clone warriors. Keeping in line with Japanese films, my take would have been to have Palpatine pulling the strings of this clone army, and to have a group of basically Sith henchman underneath him, each like the boss level in a video game. They could be generals. And have Anakin defeat each of these unique Sith with whatever unique style they fight in, with the ultimate goal being that Palpatine was training Anakin and seeing if he was worthy, and then making him his lone apprentice.
So Anakin is this simple farm boy that's a great pilot. Kenobi finds him and basically makes him his squire, and the two grow into friends. The Clone Wars come, and they are basically this galactic crusade, where armies go off with total optimism to be gone for years at a time. Anakin goes off on this greatest adventure with Kenobi, with whom he's gone on many other such idealistic missions before. However, this one changes him. The Crusade turns out to be a botch where the Republic, corrupt as it is, engages in wickedness itself. To fight the enemy and their darkness, Anakin gives in to darkness -- fire with fire. He and his wife grow apart as he is gone for years, he falls into temptation, and gradually takes on the same evil he had fought until he stands before a Palpatine who points this out to him and he falls to darkness. "The galaxy needs order or it falls to chaos. The Clone Wars proved this. The Republic is old and corrupt. The only thing that matters is force and fear. We shall be the one's to secure it", and additional epic dialogue.
I would go back to square one on everything, and throw out everything that is not from the original films. For example, the Clone Wars was strongly hinted at as being the Republic versus an army of clone warriors. Keeping in line with Japanese films, my take would have been to have Palpatine pulling the strings of this clone army, and to have a group of basically Sith henchman underneath him, each like the boss level in a video game. They could be generals. And have Anakin defeat each of these unique Sith with whatever unique style they fight in, with the ultimate goal being that Palpatine was training Anakin and seeing if he was worthy, and then making him his lone apprentice.
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redlightning
Banned
My genesis for Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi is already a well established Jedi and general by the time of first encounter with Anakin. A clone army, probably a relic from sort of ancient war invades the Republic and slaughters entire planets in genocide through stripping of resources for the war effort. This gives fuel to weapons like the Death Star being created. It's also the unseen enemy which 1984 plays at too.
As a child Anakin sees his home and life destroyed when the clone army invades and wipes out his planet. He is raised by his older brother Lars are refugees who retreat to Tatooine to farm. Idolizing Obi-Wan, he runs away and becomes a pilot and eventually commander in the Republic military. Eventually he encounters Kenobi who teaches him about the Force and makes him a Jedi. He also meets a senator from Alderaan who becomes his lover and mistress. The war causes Anakin and Obi-Wan to often be separated for long periods of time because of the business of fighting. He comes to eventually feel his training and potential are being neglected. This causes him to drift. There is also a tendency for revenge because of the death of his family and villagers years earlier.
A covert entity of the Dark Side (actually Palpatine manipulating the Force) manifests himself and tells Anakin about the Dark Side and how abilities learned through it could lead to a way to win the war for the Republic. After being frustrated with the busy Kenobi, he takes the opportunity and uses the Dark Side to either lead him to the secret hiding place of the leadership of this clone army or where it the origin of where the force is being produced. In the process there probably is some sort of backstory that the Jedi during some ancient war accidentally created the clone army through some sort of means with a life developing technology. This can easily be manipulated by Palpatine eventually in his rise to power to claim the Jedi were behind the war and are traitors to the Republic. Either way he has to use the Dark Side to destroy it and effectively shut down the clone war machine. Kenobi confronts him in the process having tracked him and seen that if he does this, he could become irreversibly consumed by the Dark Side. Skywalker becoming consumed by it simply thinks his master wants to prolong the war so the Jedi can gain more power or so he can secretly be the hero behind the war instead. They duel, Anakin is knocked into a molten pit where he has to use the Dark Side to survive. Palpatine reveals himself, saves him by putting him into the cyborg suit, and retrains him using the darkness.
All Palpatine has to do from this point on is broadcast to the galaxy and senate the false claim the Jedi were really behind the clone army and war to have them thoroughly hated and hunted down as criminals. He will replace the Jedi with his Empire and new order of Dark Force warriors instead with Vader at the helm.
As a child Anakin sees his home and life destroyed when the clone army invades and wipes out his planet. He is raised by his older brother Lars are refugees who retreat to Tatooine to farm. Idolizing Obi-Wan, he runs away and becomes a pilot and eventually commander in the Republic military. Eventually he encounters Kenobi who teaches him about the Force and makes him a Jedi. He also meets a senator from Alderaan who becomes his lover and mistress. The war causes Anakin and Obi-Wan to often be separated for long periods of time because of the business of fighting. He comes to eventually feel his training and potential are being neglected. This causes him to drift. There is also a tendency for revenge because of the death of his family and villagers years earlier.
A covert entity of the Dark Side (actually Palpatine manipulating the Force) manifests himself and tells Anakin about the Dark Side and how abilities learned through it could lead to a way to win the war for the Republic. After being frustrated with the busy Kenobi, he takes the opportunity and uses the Dark Side to either lead him to the secret hiding place of the leadership of this clone army or where it the origin of where the force is being produced. In the process there probably is some sort of backstory that the Jedi during some ancient war accidentally created the clone army through some sort of means with a life developing technology. This can easily be manipulated by Palpatine eventually in his rise to power to claim the Jedi were behind the war and are traitors to the Republic. Either way he has to use the Dark Side to destroy it and effectively shut down the clone war machine. Kenobi confronts him in the process having tracked him and seen that if he does this, he could become irreversibly consumed by the Dark Side. Skywalker becoming consumed by it simply thinks his master wants to prolong the war so the Jedi can gain more power or so he can secretly be the hero behind the war instead. They duel, Anakin is knocked into a molten pit where he has to use the Dark Side to survive. Palpatine reveals himself, saves him by putting him into the cyborg suit, and retrains him using the darkness.
All Palpatine has to do from this point on is broadcast to the galaxy and senate the false claim the Jedi were really behind the clone army and war to have them thoroughly hated and hunted down as criminals. He will replace the Jedi with his Empire and new order of Dark Force warriors instead with Vader at the helm.
jahenders
Banned
I generally like that take. The way Obi-Wan talks in the original, it sounds like the Jedi have been power brokers for many years, and then there's an extended series of "Clone Wars." Somewhere in that process, the Republic becomes the Empire because a stronger hand is needed to maintain order.
The biggest need is a MUCH more believable story (carried out by a MUCH, MUCH more believable actor) as to why Anakin turned. The prequels were like watching a train wreck -- you KNEW that Anakin was going to become Darth but you wondered how they'd get there. They got there but it was totally unbelievable and very painful (for the viewer).
I'd have preferred something like you suggest -- that Anakin gives in to darkness as he's trying to do good in fighting the clone wars, basically doing ANYTHING to protect his troops and fulfill his mission. As he sees what he's become, Emperor Palpatine offers him more power to keep fulfilling the mission.
redlightning
Banned
In some ways I think Padme worked better as Anakin's mistress than secret wife. People for some reason insist they have to be married or it's strange and taboo. That or for some reason the Skywalker children need to be of nobility. Make her something like a bounty hunter, random Republic nurse he meets during the war, or innocent village girl. It's just someone for Anakin to fall in love with, confide, and also give into temptation with while as a Jedi.
The Jedi were totally botched in the prequels. There should have been nothing about celibacy or inability to marry or getting taken away at age zero to live as these weird monks who had to train forever, because that is not how the Jedi or the force were ever hinted to work. If you have the powers, the force is hinted at being something you can kind of get into and use without a lot of pomp and circumstance, which is what "Force Awakens" did right, although you can train to become better. Anakins wife should not have restrictions on her like that. It just made the Jedi annoying. That said, she could have still be his lover rather than his wife. I'm thinking from the perspective of a Crusade Knight going off to war, and falling in love in a village along the way. The Jedi are not Shaolin Monks. They're not even Medieval Monks, although you could have made those people part of it and made them celibate. Yoda would be that. The fact that he used a lightsaber at any point in the prequels, rather than passive dismissive force powers is completely out of character. They're Merlin mixed with the Knights of the Round Table. If they get kung fu moves on top of that and Lucas could do it good, fine. But magic fantasy knight thing takes primacy.
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"In some ways I think Padme worked better as Anakin's mistress than secret wife."
The "fix the prequels" plot I have in my head has Anakin married, but falling in love with Palpatine's daughter and her becoming his mistress.
That takes care of all the problems with the plot. You have the much more serious execution problems. Really, imagine the same exact movies with the same exact plots, even leaving Phantom Menace as is, with Heath Ledger (to take one example, you can substitute any other good male actor) cast in the role of Anakin Skywalker.
The "fix the prequels" plot I have in my head has Anakin married, but falling in love with Palpatine's daughter and her becoming his mistress.
That takes care of all the problems with the plot. You have the much more serious execution problems. Really, imagine the same exact movies with the same exact plots, even leaving Phantom Menace as is, with Heath Ledger (to take one example, you can substitute any other good male actor) cast in the role of Anakin Skywalker.
Yeah, can't agree. Star Wars has always been about combining sci-fi with more classical archetypes, and Jedi have always given off that monk vibe, as well as a general sense of rigidity. Yoda wasn't kidding when he complained that Luke was too old for training, and people tend to forget that Luke prevails at the end because he finds a better way for Vader than Yoda or Obi-Wan thought was possible. Not to mention the minor detail that the only old Jedi we see are living as secluded hermits. They're knights/samurai, yes, but there's more to them than that. Now, this doesn't mean that they had to be celibate, but don't pretend it was a contradiction of anything, it does fit the archetypes that were there from the beginning.
Agreed, most people who find a family member is dying of a terminal disease (Closest equivalent I can come up with for Anakin's situation) don't turn evil. The only way I can see him turning against the Jedi over that is if they were somehow responsible for her death even indirectly.
In the first trilogy Luke says "The force runs strong in my family" so Anakin should come from a long line of Jedi. If the force runs strong in families they should be encouraged to marry each other so that the Jedi have many strong force users. The training should start young as early 20 something Luke is considered too old for the training but it could be after school, on weekends and in summer while the rest of the time they deal with normal kids. Another problem I have is Obi Wan dealing with C3PO and R2D2 in the prequels as he should have recognized them in ANH. If I was going to use them they would be Bail Organa's droids. Bail Organa replaces Valorum as the person who Palpatine ousts after a considerable struggle and they should be seen as opponents. Tarkin picked Alderran not only because it was prominent but because it was Palpatine's main rival's planet. Organa must have been popular enough that Palpatine doesn't dare get rid of him before he gets the Death Star.
Wallet
Banned
Where did the storm troopers come from?
The Prequel Trilogy needs to lead into the Original. We know that Kenobi remembers a republic that turned into the Empire, a large Jedi order that were killed off, and the clone wars. All in his lifetime. And that Anakin was responsible for this.
Since he's been on Tatooine since Luke's birth around 20 years ago. That means all these events took place in a close timeframe.
Clear to take power and kill the Jedi, Palpatine needed an army. The clone army turned into storm troopers.
The Prequel Trilogy needs to lead into the Original. We know that Kenobi remembers a republic that turned into the Empire, a large Jedi order that were killed off, and the clone wars. All in his lifetime. And that Anakin was responsible for this.
Since he's been on Tatooine since Luke's birth around 20 years ago. That means all these events took place in a close timeframe.
Clear to take power and kill the Jedi, Palpatine needed an army. The clone army turned into storm troopers.